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Old 12-07-2012, 04:03 PM   #26
Stella_Omega
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I love me a shaggy dog story....

*happy sigh*


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Old 12-07-2012, 08:32 PM   #27
marieR19
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So anotherwords, this dude posts bragging about how he did this "total Vanilla Conversion", without explaining any details, and then when we point out that without details, Vanilla Conversion can be considered a Bad Thing, suddenly he doesn't want to post those details? Huh. Kinda figured.
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Quotes from my current in-progress novel:

“I understand. We can take things slow… And okay, that may be the wrong phrase since we’ve already slept together, but the more relationship-type things, I’m not going to push you, alright?”

"Remy gently grabbed her arm and pulled her close, lips meeting softly. I bit my own lip and watched as their kiss slowly deepened, watched as Remy's hand slowly rested against the back of Allison's neck to pull her closer. This was the part where I was supposed to get jealous, right? Speak up, ask what the hell was going on? But I couldn't. I couldn't ruin the moment because no matter what I *should* have been feeling, I wasn't."

"Surely if I was going to be concerned about any of her destructive habits I *should* be attempting to talk to her about the drugs… But that felt like a much more difficult thing to approach then her promiscuity."
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Old 12-08-2012, 12:55 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marieR19 View Post
So anotherwords, this dude posts bragging about how he did this "total Vanilla Conversion", without explaining any details, and then when we point out that without details, Vanilla Conversion can be considered a Bad Thing, suddenly he doesn't want to post those details? Huh. Kinda figured.
First of all, a statement of fact is not bragging, particularly in the absence of any outlandish claims.

Your words "total Vanilla Coversion" in quotation marks suggest the words were mine...they were not...they are Yours.

You used words to make what I said sound more definititive ("total" versus "pretty much complete")...so the suggestion of bragging and the implication of bullshit is actually Yours. That is, you miss marie are the bullshitter in this exchange, not me.

I think your suggestion that you speak for the group in assuming any statement without details is or can be a "Bad Thing"...is, like your word twist on "total"...just more bullshit. Take your anger elsewhere; it has no effect on me...though I do reserve the right to kick you around this forum like a ragdoll if I feel like it.

I'm neither a masochist nor an idiot, so no, I'm not interested in discussing the details of something quite lovely with a group of angry posters.

If/when you find yourself wondering why the amount of traffic in the BDSM Forum has reduced itself to a trickle of its former size, even though more people than ever are interested in BDSM...maybe you should look at the way you treat people outside your core circle here.

It's really ugly of you and quite the opposite of the way real BDSM people behave towards each other in discussion.

Last edited by Lancecastor : 12-08-2012 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 12-08-2012, 02:40 PM   #29
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Step up to the plate.

Speak your piece.

Ignore the naysayers and pay attention to the people who want to hear your story.
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:06 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
Step up to the plate.

Speak your piece.

Ignore the naysayers and pay attention to the people who want to hear your story.
Even though I've *mostly* chalked this whole thread up to attention whoring. I'm actually curious to hear the story. There have been numerous threads on how to bring up BDSM and your kinks to a new relationship. In fact very recently I met a man with whom, I have chemistry. Upon seeing a pic of me (I think it's my profile pic here) he started asking A LOT of questions. The worst was he tried some cheesy role play over the phone and when I said "nope that's not what it's about at all" I kind of felt at a loss as to how to explain the dynamics of a BDSM relationship (especially the kind I seek) to a vanilla person. It's frustrating.

So if the OP wants to grace us with his story, great! I'm not holding my breath. It seems the GB has turned him into just a long winded argumentative person, if not a total BSer.
BUT, if anyone else would like to chime in on their experience introducing vanillas to BDSM. Please share. Thanks!
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:06 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Lancecastor View Post
First of all, a statement of fact is not bragging, particularly in the absence of any outlandish claims.

Your words "total Vanilla Coversion" in quotation marks suggest the words were mine...they were not...they are Yours.

You used words to make what I said sound more definititive ("total" versus "pretty much complete")...so the suggestion of bragging and the implication of bullshit is actually Yours. That is, you miss marie are the bullshitter in this exchange, not me.

I think your suggestion that you speak for the group in assuming any statement without details is or can be a "Bad Thing"...is, like your word twist on "total"...just more bullshit. Take your anger elsewhere; it has no effect on me...though I do reserve the right to kick you around this forum like a ragdoll if I feel like it.

I'm neither a masochist nor an idiot, so no, I'm not interested in discussing the details of something quite lovely with a group of angry posters.

If/when you find yourself wondering why the amount of traffic in the BDSM Forum has reduced itself to a trickle of its former size, even though more people than ever are interested in BDSM...maybe you should look at the way you treat people outside your core circle here.

It's really ugly of you and quite the opposite of the way real BDSM people behave towards each other in discussion.
Only this is Lit, and there's really no MANDATE that everyone here be nicer or more rational than the GB, or more eager to listen. Or that everyone agree with you. Or that you can say stuff, and then police the reactions you get. It's kind of like the rest of the world in that regard. I can say whatever I want, other people can say whatever they think of that.
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:20 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancecastor View Post
First of all, a statement of fact is not bragging, particularly in the absence of any outlandish claims.

Your words "total Vanilla Coversion" in quotation marks suggest the words were mine...they were not...they are Yours.

You used words to make what I said sound more definititive ("total" versus "pretty much complete")...so the suggestion of bragging and the implication of bullshit is actually Yours. That is, you miss marie are the bullshitter in this exchange, not me.

That's the most pedantic attempt at a smackdown I've seen in a LONG time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancecastor View Post
I think your suggestion that you speak for the group in assuming any statement without details is or can be a "Bad Thing"...is, like your word twist on "total"...just more bullshit. Take your anger elsewhere; it has no effect on me...though I do reserve the right to kick you around this forum like a ragdoll if I feel like it.
Ah yeah. When people disagree employ terrifying message board physical threat.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancecastor View Post
I'm neither a masochist nor an idiot, so no, I'm not interested in discussing the details of something quite lovely with a group of angry posters.
You're the only person ready to cyber kick some girl's ass for disagreeing with you. I think that pretty much refutes the above.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Lancecastor View Post
If/when you find yourself wondering why the amount of traffic in the BDSM Forum has reduced itself to a trickle of its former size, even though more people than ever are interested in BDSM...maybe you should look at the way you treat people outside your core circle here.

It's really ugly of you and quite the opposite of the way real BDSM people behave towards each other in discussion.
All the "real BDSM people" I know are pretty argumentative in the face of whatever they consider to be myth-driven fantasyland bullshit that can be dangerous to people, whether those people are BDSM people or not. I think having a relationship with someone who believes that you "will eventually come around" to enjoying things you don't enjoy can be a hazard to people's physical and mental health, unless you're talking about discovery and communication and negotiation and guess what - now you are no longer a vanilla person and a BDSM person, you are an experienced BDSM person and a BDSM noob.

You march on here basically saying "guess what I'm a special snowflake!!"

What gives? Can you not cope with the idea that your woman is simply a perv who never had the inspiration to be a perv till she met you? Is that disrupting your virgin complex, so she has to be "vanilla" first?

No problem here with fantasies, either. "Hey, guys, I have this fetish for converting totally vanilla women into dirty pervs" is infinitely honest and wide-world-of-whatever-you-are-into. That's another animal.
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:29 PM   #33
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Hey now!! I didn't mention his damn stupid "real BDSM people" comment, because I STILL want to hear his damn story.

It was hard not to do it, and Netz went and did it anyway.

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Old 12-08-2012, 03:36 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Loverskitten View Post
BUT, if anyone else would like to chime in on their experience introducing vanillas to BDSM. Please share. Thanks!
Yes. Relationship ending impasse. Whether I was top/bottom/voyeur - it was completely outside of his makeup and his abilities and it was deeply disturbing to him in any format that actually turned me on. Basically take the worst emotional suckitude of sexual incompatibility where people otherwise truly DO love one another, and pile it on. We were both early 20's - so the whole idea that it's not that important was untrue. It WAS that important.

Other experience that strikes me - myriad male clients whose "wife is a domme, but...." The but is either "but only up to a point" "but not in the way I fantasize about" but most commonly "but isn't as passionate about it / doesn't NEED it / is doing it for me and we both know it."

Also, I meet a lot of D/s couples where....you can tell that the guy is rising to the occasion to meet the needs
of the female sub. You can tell that her needs are the master of the relationship, no matter what the participants are saying. You can tell that if I pulled this guy aside and said "if I could wave a wand and just turn her into a mild bring me a beer and blow me kind of submissive would you want me to?" The answer would be "please." They have a tired vibe. I'd say these are converted vanillas, as close to that as I can fathom.
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:37 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
Hey now!! I didn't mention his damn stupid "real BDSM people" comment, because I STILL want to hear his damn story.

It was hard not to do it, and Netz went and did it anyway.

I fail at Judo.
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:42 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Netzach View Post
Also, I meet a lot of D/s couples where....you can tell that the guy is rising to the occasion to meet the needs
of the female sub. You can tell that her needs are the master of the relationship, no matter what the participants are saying. You can tell that if I pulled this guy aside and said "if I could wave a wand and just turn her into a mild bring me a beer and blow me kind of submissive would you want me to?" The answer would be "please." They have a tired vibe. I'd say these are converted vanillas, as close to that as I can fathom.
Oh yes, I sense exactly this dynamic developing after one date and lots of talking/texting. Hahaha
Thanks so much for sharing.
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:46 PM   #37
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...
Also, I meet a lot of D/s couples where....you can tell that the guy is rising to the occasion to meet the needs of the female sub. You can tell that her needs are the master of the relationship, no matter what the participants are saying. You can tell that if I pulled this guy aside and said "if I could wave a wand and just turn her into a mild bring me a beer and blow me kind of submissive would you want me to?" The answer would be "please." They have a tired vibe. I'd say these are converted vanillas, as close to that as I can fathom.
Those people are the ones that need to read my rant. Hopefully before they get all stuck in these roles, expecting their partners to magically read their intentions.

But yeah, I have a submissive friend who is on the way out of her marriage, although she's still trying real hard to pretend it's not so.

She really truly needs to have a master. It's just not happening with him. And they tried really hard-- went to a couple of Butchmans weeks even, trying to teach him how to be dominant-- that shit isn't cheap.
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Old 12-08-2012, 03:59 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
Those people are the ones that need to read my rant. Hopefully before they get all stuck in these roles, expecting their partners to magically read their intentions.

But yeah, I have a submissive friend who is on the way out of her marriage, although she's still trying real hard to pretend it's not so.

She really truly needs to have a master. It's just not happening with him. And they tried really hard-- went to a couple of Butchmans weeks even, trying to teach him how to be dominant-- that shit isn't cheap.

Noooo it's not. And Butchman's you'd think would put the light bulb over that guy's head, but people are going to try everything and try everything twice for relationships.
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Old 12-08-2012, 04:21 PM   #39
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Noooo it's not. And Butchman's you'd think would put the light bulb over that guy's head, but people are going to try everything and try everything twice for relationships.
I think this years' event did, actually. They have some tough times ahead, working it out.
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:08 PM   #40
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Netzach, can I just say that I never get tired of your posts?
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Quotes from my current in-progress novel:

“I understand. We can take things slow… And okay, that may be the wrong phrase since we’ve already slept together, but the more relationship-type things, I’m not going to push you, alright?”

"Remy gently grabbed her arm and pulled her close, lips meeting softly. I bit my own lip and watched as their kiss slowly deepened, watched as Remy's hand slowly rested against the back of Allison's neck to pull her closer. This was the part where I was supposed to get jealous, right? Speak up, ask what the hell was going on? But I couldn't. I couldn't ruin the moment because no matter what I *should* have been feeling, I wasn't."

"Surely if I was going to be concerned about any of her destructive habits I *should* be attempting to talk to her about the drugs… But that felt like a much more difficult thing to approach then her promiscuity."
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Old 12-08-2012, 10:52 PM   #41
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These conversion experiments can be rather tricky. Fortunately I found the online formula through a Google search:

V/1 X (potential submissive’s age) –BDSM = M/1 X (potential master’s claimed age + 10) + d/s/TPE

For anyone claiming this has worked for them, please show your work. At least that way you can receive partial credit.

Last edited by SubWhisperer : 12-08-2012 at 10:55 PM.
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:46 AM   #42
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But obviously Michelangelo was full of shit when he said that.

My unpopular position is that everyone (who is kinky) is converted at one point or another, but nothing is concrete anyway. It's more akin to drug addiction than anything like sexual orientation, which cannot be "converted". However, you can "convert" a clean person into a crackhead and they may very well come clean again at some point. Because like harder drugs, harder sex is more intense on a neurological level (adrenaline, dopamine, etc), therefor more pleasurable, more desirable. So they keep pursuing it, the lesser (vanilla) becomes more unfulfilling.
No, he wasn't, and if you knew anything about the nature of rocks and rock carving, there is a lot more then mysticism there. Rocks have their own characteristics, grains, faults, colorations, that make them very unique, and when you try to chisel out a statue there is an interplay between sculptor and the rock, where the rock allows certain things to happen and not others. I am not a sculptor, but I have cut rock to be used in building a house, and the variations in the rock determine what you can do with it.

Putting BD/SM and human reactions down to chemical addiction alone is a gross simplification of things, arguing that kink is all about chemicals quite frankly is idiotic. First of all, a lot of BD/SM has nothing to do with the physical, you can get a sub into subspace with words and theater, for example, the physiological has there with the psychological.

Put it this way, at a time when men were routinely whipped in the military or the navy, despite one SNL sketch, very few of them ended up eroticizing it, yet you had all the chemicals there, the endorphins and so forth, but it isn't erotic. BD/SM to a large extent to me is the mind transmuting what is a natural response to pain and stress into something pleasurable, it is much as what we see and what we hear in music is not a physical reality, our brain turns it into the reality we experience.

Part of the problem with your response is that it covers 'hard' players, those doing the major things, where there is all the incredible rush, but many people into BD/SM never go there, yet are quite kinky. I think the idea that you can 'convert' someone who is totally vanilla into BD/SM like it is a drug fails one test to me, if the brain, if there isn't something that resonates there, then whatever you do to them will be what they are naturally wired there to be, sensations or whatnot, that's all, I think inherently that when people get into BD/SM play, when they are 'converted' so to speak, the inclination was there.

To me it is like Netzach said, it is like saying someone 'converted' someone to be TG or someone 'converted' someone to be straight or gay, in those cases if something happens the fundamental wiring allowed it.
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:52 AM   #43
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Thanks for the warm welcome; back to the topic at hand.

So-called lifestylers often take the position that there is no such thing as a "vanilla conversion".

The response is either the person already was kinky but repressed or unaware.

Or there has actually been no "conversion" and the the person is really just dallying, a tourist who read the 50 Shades trilogy or watched The Secretary.

Of course the trouble with those knee jerk reactions is they do the very thing a BDSM Lifestyler rails against...they are labels, judgements, preconceived notions, etc.

I'bve always thought lifestyler women dislike coverted vanilla newby subs partly out of a form of competitive jealousy, just as old Doms look down their noses at noob Doms.

As if there's a BDSM Union and you need a certain number of Hours in before you can pass Probation.

Silly stuff, really.
Interesting that you cannot back up what you said, but instead attack the motives of those posting, and what that tells me is there is no backing to what you say. In my case, you would be dead spot off, if you search my posts what you will find is that I rail against the very thing you talk about, the idea that there are some sort of rigid rules as to what is 'real' BD/SM and so forth, so you are barking up the wrong tree.
If anything, I could point out that you come off as someone like that, that by saying "I have done my vanilla conversions" , that you are saying "I am the dominant among dominants, because I took a vanilla gal and turned her into a sub, and that is the real feat" as opposed to all those other dominants who are simply poseurs because it is no feat to take someone into kink and have them as your sub.

I also question it because quite frankly, in this case there is a fine line between someone who is sub and someone who has been treated in such a way as they have been 'broken down', more akin to the Stockholm syndrome then to BD/SM play, the whole thing about 'conversion' is that you have taken someone with no interest in something and somehow 'broken' them into it. That is why I react the way I do, because that is a very real phenomenon, and their are stupid assholes stupid and mean enough out there to get pride out of doing something like that (and no, I am not accusing the OP of this)
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Old 12-09-2012, 11:53 AM   #44
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Another thing that disgusts me with this whole meme is this notion that vanilla people do not maintain the fundamental right to be left the fuck alone to enjoy whatever cupcake of a sex life makes them happy. Because we're what - better?
Nice! That one gets the cookie
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:03 PM   #45
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Well, at least you're aware that your position is unpopular coz I disagree.

Maybe for *some* people kink might be like a drug addiction, but what about those (like myself) that discovered our kinky penchants during childhood? As far as I'm aware, rolling myself up in a rug and imagining I couldn't get free didn't feel sexual at the time, it just felt good, right and comforting. It most probably didn't stimulate the production of adrenaline, dopamine etc., therefore your theory that the sole reason we are kinky is because we need the thrill seems redundant to me.

I persue kink coz it gets me off. I NEED it to get off. I can have vanilla sex but I've got to fantasise about something kinky to actually orgasm. I have always been this way, since the first time I masturbated (which was long before I had sex with another person, let alone kinky sex).

My position is that for *some* people, like myself, kink is a fundamental part of who they are and it is painfully concrete. There is no conversion, we were born this way and will die this way. I have tried not to be kinky - tried so really, really, really hard to deny this part of myself and it almost distroyed my relationship. Apparently for me denying my kink renders my sexual indentity defunct and I am unable to be aroused at all.

But for other people, like my partner, kink is a fun activity we do together. He doesn't fantasise about it or need it to get off, but nonetheless really enjoys what we do. Before being with me he had never done anything kinky or even thought about trying anything kinky. When I suggested we try some things he wasn't so enthused or excited but gave it a go and enjoyed himself.

Did I convert him? No. He will probably never need kink like I do or have it form part of his identity, but that's ok. Fuck, it's more than ok. Who the fuck I am to go round telling people who they should be and what they should feel?

If anything, people might convert themselves. Just like with religion. Sure you can baptise someone, make them go to church, force them to pray, but can you MAKE them BELIEVE? Nah, only the individual can make that happen and only the individual will know when it has happened.

So to the OP: maybe you introduced someone to the idea of submission and helped them explore it. But you sure as hell didn't reach inside them and flip a submissive switch. If that happened she did it herself and that has very little to do with you at all.
I think you hit upon a fundamental point, RB, that there are different levels in all this, from people who can enjoy it as an occassional kink to those who live this, literally, in full blown D/s and other relationships, and that is a wonderful thing (among other things, communities that are diverse tend to flourish.

My take is with kink is for someone to enjoy it (key word), there has to be something within them that reacts to it. It is no different in kink play where people respond to different things, someone who is an incredible player in terms of being spanked and whipped and so forth, if you tried to get them into waterspouts or being a 'personal toilet' (*ick, sorry, just not my thing *shudder*), you could try from here to next st swithens day and they won't be into it *shrug*. I think it is the same with kink play in general, that if someone is not into it, you aren't going to 'convert' them into eroticizing it, no matter how you try.

I will add that I think a lot of people could like kink if they gave it a chance, it is some of what I think we are seeing with the 50 shades thing, that that kind of eroticism might be more broadly appealing then we think, and I won't disagree with that, it kinds of goes along with the idea that for more then a few people, sexuality may be more fluid then we think, but the key factor is the person is fluid already. A stone cold gay women is not going to become straight because she meets James Bond and has sex with him, any more then a stone cold straight guy is going to turn gay because some guy does something to him, when people 'convert' there are already grounds to do so inside themselves, that is what I believe. The problem is there is no way to prove that, because there are so many layers of guilt and taboos and other things built on sexuality, that someone can be 'turned off' by kink but in reality all they need is someone/something to make them realize that what was holding themselves back wasn't themselves, but idiotic taboos and strictures that made it a "NO!"
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Old 12-09-2012, 12:19 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Netzach View Post
Yes. Relationship ending impasse. Whether I was top/bottom/voyeur - it was completely outside of his makeup and his abilities and it was deeply disturbing to him in any format that actually turned me on. Basically take the worst emotional suckitude of sexual incompatibility where people otherwise truly DO love one another, and pile it on. We were both early 20's - so the whole idea that it's not that important was untrue. It WAS that important.

Other experience that strikes me - myriad male clients whose "wife is a domme, but...." The but is either "but only up to a point" "but not in the way I fantasize about" but most commonly "but isn't as passionate about it / doesn't NEED it / is doing it for me and we both know it."

Also, I meet a lot of D/s couples where....you can tell that the guy is rising to the occasion to meet the needs
of the female sub. You can tell that her needs are the master of the relationship, no matter what the participants are saying. You can tell that if I pulled this guy aside and said "if I could wave a wand and just turn her into a mild bring me a beer and blow me kind of submissive would you want me to?" The answer would be "please." They have a tired vibe. I'd say these are converted vanillas, as close to that as I can fathom.
You hit the nail squarely with that one, there are couples I have seen where one spouse 'does it' to please the other, it is clear that though they can enjoy kink, it is on a totally different level. It is sad, because often these people really love one another, but something is just skewed too far to make it compatible.

It is no different then vanilla sexuality where one partner has a high sex drive and the other doesn't, where one is happy with a once a week fuck and the other one wants to go at it every day, hard. Talk to someone who has been partnered with someone who has been sexually abused or dealing with sexual abuse in therapy about that (I have, speaking from experience) and it is very, very hard to deal with.

If 'conversion' worked it would be a perfect world, for any kind of sex, if you could give the once a week person a magic horny shot (not talking low T levels here...) and make them rut like the other one, it would be great (hopefully not the opposite, taking the sexual one and making them into a once a weaker...).

It is why people work out compromises, where, for example, a non kink spouse works out with the kinky one to let them get that outside the marriage, an outside dom/me, sub, whatever, likewise some people have open marriages that work this out for them, but it isn't easy . I suppose for example if a wife is a sub and hubby is not into it, working it out where she has an outside master works because he knows she needs it (to be honest, would love to know how the dynamics of that plays out, but that is for another thread I suppose).

BTW with the OP I am not surprised, he prob figured he would have a lot of people on here cheering him on, hip hip hurray and all that. Take a gander at his profile, I think it says it all
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:08 PM   #47
Bramblethorn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SubWhisperer View Post
These conversion experiments can be rather tricky. Fortunately I found the online formula through a Google search:

V/1 X (potential submissive’s age) –BDSM = M/1 X (potential master’s claimed age + 10) + d/s/TPE

For anyone claiming this has worked for them, please show your work. At least that way you can receive partial credit.
Warning: that formula is only good for US units. I tried using it in metric and accidentally converted my partner to Scientology instead :-/
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Old 12-09-2012, 03:59 PM   #48
Stella_Omega
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Originally Posted by Bramblethorn View Post
Warning: that formula is only good for US units. I tried using it in metric and accidentally converted my partner to Scientology instead :-/
OMG you win the internets.
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Old 12-09-2012, 04:36 PM   #49
Loverskitten
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Originally Posted by Bramblethorn View Post
Warning: that formula is only good for US units. I tried using it in metric and accidentally converted my partner to Scientology instead :-/
Lulz lulz lulz!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-09-2012, 07:12 PM   #50
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Well, crap. You all scared the boy away with your rationality and your willingness to hear his story laid out in detail.

Now how am I going to find out where he got his magic penis?
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