Feedback requested - submitted recently

[2981notrohrm]

A while has passed since I came up with an idea for a story - a man and his female best friend hook up after his marriage fails. I decided to take some of the feedback and focus on character development.

The reviews so far are mixed, with everything from very positive to anonymous people slamming it, with the most common feedback seeming to be "Where's the rest of the story?" I'll answer that now - this is, in fact, intended to be a part-one. (A few people felt the nding was rushed - this is why.)

I also toned down the sex scene a bit, the idea being that I wanted it to be more erotic than pornographic.

If you think the writing is totally unworkable and doesn't do a thing for you, that's fine, but otherwise, I am interested in constructive feedback, especially on the following:

-The sex storyline - too graphic? Not enough? How can I make what I'm trying to convey about why Brian never hooked up with Raven more easily discernable, since some readers can't figure it out?

-The dynamic of the Brian-Constance relationship - specifically, I'm not trying to paint Constance as totally unsympathetic, and I want the reader to have at least some measure of understanding of what he sees in her despite there not being much of a physical attraction. I also kind of wanted to convey the whole "he's trying to get her out from under her father's thumb because he's pretty sure her father's the problem." Evidently people didn't get that and I'm a bit confused as to why that is unless I need to hit them over the head harder with it.

Thanks in advance; the link is below.

http://www.literotica.com/s/ravens-wild-ride

[SevenSquared]

I thought it was an excellent story. It's one of those stories that didn't really turn me on that much, but ultimately I didn't care. I loved reading it and I would probably read it again. So anything I say from this point on, take it with the above in mind. You asked for constructive criticism, so I will give it my best shot, because unmitigated praise is nice to hear but ultimately not that helpful.

Originally Posted by 2981notrohrm

The reviews so far are mixed, with everything from very positive to anonymous people slamming it, with the most common feedback seeming to be "Where's the rest of the story?" I'll answer that now - this is, in fact, intended to be a part-one. (A few people felt the ending was rushed - this is why.)

I was also a bit disappointed with the ending. The story seemed to deserve more than a rather rushed sex scene in an anonymous hotel room followed by a weird inner monologue which seemed to raise far more questions than it answered. I'm not saying it needed to have a happy ending as such, I like stories that don't follow the HEA cliche. It's just that you did so well in laying all the foundations and building up the characters and the story that I won't deny I was left thinking 'what on earth was that?' Sort of the like the end of Monty Python and the Holy Grail where they are about to siege the castle and take the grail and then 20th century policemen turn up and arrest everybody.

If this was supposed to be a two-parter, then I think that needs to be made clear somewhere, whether it's calling it Part 1 or saying 'to be continued' at the end. In all honesty I think that if you're going to write a planned and self-contained two part story then you are much better off writing the whole thing first and then submitting it in two parts to avoid just this problem.

-The dynamic of the Brian-Constance relationship

I noted this down as something to bring up, before I even got to the part where we meet Constance's father. From the description of Constance, both in looks and personality, it just isn't particularly clear what actually attracts Brian to her. She is very religious, he doesn't seem to be. She is vegetarian and tee-total, he isn't and seems to have a bit of a wild side. It doesn't sound like he finds her that attractive and obviously it's not because she's good in bed and all his friends hate her. The only thing you really offer up is a mutual like of Go, and the fact she once called an ambulance when he was choking, which I'm not sure is really enough to justify this relationship. I know it's an essential story mechanic, but I think Constance needs to have more redeeming features. Or more effort put into explaining what exactly he likes about her.

Also come to think of it, what does Constance see in Brian? Other than the fact he is a lawyer, and she is following her dad's wishes in that regard, he doesn't seem to be well-suited to her at all.

The Brian-Raven relationship

(Sorry, that isn't your quotation, but it seemed good to break up my points with quotes as I started that way )

Something about this relationship doesn't quite ring true. Brian and Raven have been friends for, what, 15 years? It seems there is a little bit too much sexual tension still in the air. I'm not talking about the ending, or the fact that she has a secret crush on him, I can kind of buy that (or at least suspend disbelief as you often have to do in stories of this nature). I'm, more thinking about, for example, when Raven catches him checking out her ass. If they have been best friends for that long, either Brian would have got bored with 'checking her out' long ago, or they would both be totally cool with it, and treat it as normal. The situation would have played itself out too many times by then for it to still cause embarrassment to either of them.

Other Stuff

There is very little else I could find fault with really. Constance's father seemed a little bit too 'extreme' for my tastes, drifting a bit into cartoon character territory, but it wasn't a big deal. And the title seems a bit weird, it doesn't really fit in with the story at all. And maybe the tagline is too much of a spoiler as it really describes the events of the last page or so, not the story as a whole.

That's it, I'm out.

[2981notrohrm]

Thanks for the feedback.

This part of the story wasn't really intended to be anything other than the beginning, and a lot more of "what the hell got Brian to marry Constance and then give everything up for Raven" goes into the next few sections - as does a hell of a lot more sex (I was focusing a lot more on character development than sex for the beginning, and I was also kind of thinking that, if EL James can write a bestselling erotic novel with no sex for, what, a half-dozen chapters, then the first real action can wait in my story, too. But trust me, there's plenty of sex to come, now that Brian's free of the frigid bitch and I can explore Raven's bisexual side.)

Another section will be up when I'm far less sleep-deprived and can focus.

[SevenSquared]

Originally Posted by 2981notrohrm

I was also kind of thinking that, if EL James can write a bestselling erotic novel with no sex for, what, a half-dozen chapters, then the first real action can wait in my story, too. But trust me, there's plenty of sex to come, now that Brian's free of the frigid bitch and I can explore Raven's bisexual side.)

Another section will be up when I'm far less sleep-deprived and can focus.

Good luck and have fun writing.

Just make sure that you don't focus too much on the sex at the expense of everything else. I've seen way too many stories like this with good characters and a great build up completely lose their way after the characters 'do it' for the first time. All story development gets sacrificed to make way for a series of never ending scenes just designed to fill as many different orifices as possible.

[Kelteriser]

enjoyed the story, though this guy needs to grow a spine as someone else said - can't see how that marriage would have happened in r/l - i enjoyed the story though

[CWatson]

First off, this is pretty damn good. I think you have enough understanding of both the art and craft of writing that you could try for publishing. So keep writing. =)

My first problem I had with the story was just how... luxuriant the descriptions were. Setting the scene is all well and good, but the story feels like it's at least a third longer than it needs to be because you just couldn't rein yourself in description-wise. Too many adjectives, too much back story, too much flashback. And all that's happened so far is that Raven has gotten into her car. I'm a third down the first page and I already feel like things are moving too slowly.

Secondly, if Brian's sneaking peeks at Raven's ass, his situation with Constance is already on the rocks. I feel like you could stand to draw more attention to that--to either have Brian present more of his problems with her earlier, or be deeper in denial about it.

The story is in present tense, but you switch into past tense for almost all recollections--"My parents ate dinner." To me, there are certain ones that would be better served by past perfect aka pluperfect or present perfect instead ("My parents have eaten dinner"). For instance, when you're talking about Raven's parents' divorce, that's a good time to use past tense, because it's back story, ancient history. But when you talk about Brian woolgathering for an hour and claim that "Constance left to go home at that time," it's also in past tense--back story, ancient history. Using pluperfect--"Constance had gone home"--would help you differentiate between the recent and non-recent events.

(Before you start crying and complaining about grammar, let me point out that this is a really good problem to be having. Which would you rather be hearing--these finicky nitpicks about minor nuances of meaning, or that "bar" has only one R in it? )

Okay, here's another example of the whole "too much description" thing: the "Lucky Charms" incident. First off, it drags The Reader out of the narrative by suddenly throwing back story into the mix. Second off (and I haven't even started reading that paragraph yet, so bear with me), does it actually need to be described? "Incident with a charm bracelet" makes it clear where the nicknames came from, and sometimes things are best left to The Reader's imagination--hence the concept of the Noodle Incident. (Note: do not click any links on that page if you intend to do anything productive for the next several days. TVTropes will eat your life.) Finally, if it's really important, you can always revisit it later: leaving plot threads hanging is a good way to keep The Reader curious and invested.

(And no offense, but the whole snippet seems really irrelevant now that I've read it.)

Constance saves Brian's life from an allergy and that's what makes him want to marry her? Sorry, man, but I don't buy it. Reverend Hastings surely did pre-marriage counseling with them, and he would have emphasized that it takes more than just coincidental stories to found a working marriage--right? I mean, even the most seriously conservative priests do that--and I almost married a real-life version of Constance, so I'm not just saying that. It's cute, but Brian had better be able to offer better compatibility than "She saved me from an allergy" if you want The Reader to believe he and Constance actually get along.

Also, the stuff about Rev. Hastings' hypocrisy feels like a cheap shot. I know from your postings here that Constance and Brian are not going to work out. Well, these things happen sometimes. They're not right for each other--that doesn't mean she or her family are required to be bad people. And the way it then elaborates out... Obviously, Brian is young, but not that young--he ought to know that marriage doesn't change a person, that getting Constance to say "I do" won't solve their pre-existing problems. (And if he didn't, Rev. Hastings ought to have told him so!) If Brian married Constance knowing that her father is a racist control-freak, then he's either crazy or wildly optimistic. And with that in mind, I feel like he gave up on Constance very abruptly. There ought to be history--arguments they've had which are now only being rehashed--but none of that is mentioned. Evidently, all this controlling and racism and such is new to Brian. That just makes him look stupid.

And yes, the ending is extremely abrupt. More importantly, it seems to be a bad one, since the final thought of the story is negative: "Aww crap, there goes everything!" And because the story doesn't continue, so far as The Reader knows, that is everything: Constance is over, Raven is over, and Brian's got a rocky road ahead of him. A "To be continued" would have been incredibly useful.


Now, as to your specific questions:

The reason readers can't figure out why Brian never pursued Raven is because you never had him talk about it at all. The sole excuse was that Brian's in The Friend Zone, but more importantly he seems to be okay with being there. He has one incident of noticing her ass, which in itself means nothing--women are women, and guys sometimes notice that one of them is sexy even when that woman is supposed to be off-limits (best friend; incestuous content; etc). This is normal, and--because the vast majority of men are sane--these moments pass on and are not remarked over. Long story short, the reason readers are confused about Brian's attraction to Raven is that he doesn't seem to be attracted to her. There's nothing about their personalities or chemistry, and no indication that he is having any attraction to her beyond a fleeting notice that, hey, she has sex appeal.

As to what Brian sees in Constance: to be honest, I haven't the faintest clue. Brian doesn't talk about that either. Does he like that she's strait-laced and traditional? Does he like her spirit of rebellion and her interest in starting to break free of her parents? That second was the core of my attraction to my own version of Constance, so I can vouch for its power. Do they have any other interests in common? My Constance--let's call her "Caitlyn"--is a musician and a writer, same as me, and I also had to fight a long campaign to break free of my parents, so I empathized with her plight and counseled her on it. Of course, she also wanted me to be much more devoutly Christian than I am, and I wanted her to be much more devoutly sexual than she is, and we couldn't compromise about it (I don't have much faith in organized religion, and she, poor thing, is so asexual that sometimes just making out would give her panic attacks). And boom, that was our chemistry in a nutshell--why we fell in love, and why it didn't work. What was Brian and Constance's? I don't know. I hope you do, because you need to put it in the story.

And in regards to the whole escaping-her-father thing, the reason readers don't get it is because you have the timing on it reversed. You do a lot of back-story on Brian's past, particularly with Raven, in the early stages of the story, but don't bring up his relationship with Constance's father, her relationship with her father, Brian's opinion on what it should be, until, basically, the wedding itself. All that stuff ought to be right there in the beginning, alongside or maybe even replacing the other descriptions. I know that you're following the Law of Narrative Importance--since Raven is ultimately the girl Brian ends up with, you talk about her first. (First Girl Wins.) Unfortunately, in this case, Narrative Importance leads to bad characterization: Brian, who should be dwelling on his concerns for his upcoming marriage and the war he's going to have to fight against Constance's father, is instead dwelling on his best friend's ass. Obviously, that's on purpose, but you could be doing a lot more to make Brian and Constance look like they actually have some sort of chance together. Because don't fool yourself: Constance is choosing not to sleep with Brian, is choosing not to move her relationship with him forward, is choosing (let's be honest here) her father over him. That's a valid choice for her to make, but the fact that Brian doesn't at all try to fight it seems (as previously mentioned) abrupt--particularly with the lack of foreshadowing. He should have more reaction than "Whatevs, I'm out". This should be something he's been agonizing over for ages. "How do I initiate her into sex?--because I love her and I want her to enjoy it. And what the heck am I gonna do if she doesn't decide to give herself to me?" And that's more than a figure of speech, since Constance is balanced on the cusp between her old life, the life her father chose for her, and the new one Brian is trying to draw her into.

Your instincts are right in feeling that the central question of the story is, "what the hell got Brian to marry Constance and then give everything up for Raven". The problem isn't so much that you haven't answered it yet. The problem is that you haven't asked it yet. That's why readers are having the responses they are. You simply establish that Brian married Constance and then gave it all up for Raven, without bothering to have the story ask why or even, really, suggest that it is going to. Brian does far too little self-reflection for that to happen. So ironically here I am complaining about all the back story and then simultaneously claiming that you need to add more description. But seriously, that's what it's about. I want to see a lot more of Brian going, "What am I doing? What am I doing? And, more importantly, why am I doing it? Why do I like Constance? Why do I like Raven? What makes one right for me and the other not?" It's okay to save most of the answers to those questions for later, but you need to at least start hinting--and you definitely need to have Brian start asking.


Okay, that's probably enough to be going on with. (Took me 90 minutes to write this up.) Be careful with the TVTropes links--that site kills productivity like no other, especially for writers. Hope all this analysis helps some. And again, please don't be daunted--These are good problems to have. "I'm not entirely sure Brian's motivations are consistent with his actions." That requires your story to 1) have characters with 2) discernible personality. With those alone, you're already a really good writer.

Now let's make you better.

[kc_sweetNsour]

I want to tell you that I absolutely loved your story. It struck a chord with me, because I have an issue with my own best friend, who is male, so I get the whole "tension" thing. People may bash you because you didn't "illustrate", "alliterate", or dangle the right "participle", but it was a good story, and I was able to follow along just fine. The only complaint I had was how the story ended. I am kind of the Raven in my own real life story, and I was rootin for her the whole damn time. So to see it end so quickly, and seemingly so finally, left me scratching my head and asking, "WTF!?" If there is meant to be more, we needed to know that.

I like to read my erotic stories like their bring told to me like a friend bragging about their latest conquest over drinks. I don't read my smut, hoping to hand out the next pulitzer. Of course your story will go back and forth between past and present, because that's what happens when you tell stories in real life. When you're having a conversation with someone, and the suddenly elaborate on part of a back story, to make what they are telling you, make more sense; do you correct them then? So don't worry about your structure, that much, unless you want to publish.

For those who wanna nitpick about how Raven and Brian's relationship has been over this whole time, don't be judging something on how you think it should be handled, or how that would never been like that in real life... unless you have been in the situation where you fall for your best friend, of the opposite sex who is in a committed relationship, too late to do anything about it, you will never understand their relationship, truly.

I think you did a wonderful job with the subject until the end. Fix it by bringing us more. And please tell me that you plan to humiliate that little prude for being her daddy's lil bitch (not for her religious beliefs, because I never hash anyone over that) And please tell me Brian gets to cold cock her father! What a prick he was!

~Kisses and Licks, kc_sweetNsour

[barrymanilow]

Everything else was good, but the father was an absolutely ridiculous character with no complexity. I know there are some racist asshole preachers in real life but this just seemed a little too far. I may have missed it but I think you didn't even talk about Brian's feelings on religion - is he compelled to listen to the reverend because of his faith at all (even though he's more of a casual Christian who doesn't mind premarital sex, etc)?

The story could have been better if the father was very strict and religious but well meaning and not an evil cartoon character, you could have made it clear that Brian and Constance's relationship wasn't compatible because of their religious/value differences without making her father into a horrendous human being.

The father making demands and trying to control the every day schedule of an adult male (a successful lawyer, even) in an upfront way just was absolutely ludicrous. It could have been done in a much more subtle way. For example, instead of having him be like "You will show up at 7:30 at church and you will not have any complaints, boy! Do what I say!" and boss Brian around like a vindictive drill sergeant, you could have had him more casually remind Brian of his scheduling requests, and whenever Brian suggests he doesn't want to follow the Reverend's schedule, the Reverend would sigh and say something like "I would be very disappointed if you weren't there in church tomorrow." And then the Reverend could use Constance to passive aggressively force Brian into doing what they wanted.

Even if you were set on making the Reverend into a bad person, it should have been shown in a more subtle way (subtle remarks off the cuff, passive aggressive methods of control) instead of him loudly yelling racial insults at minorities and also screaming out ludicrous demands like he's Yosemite Sam.

[Belongs2Beth]

I don't always enjoy the longer stories, so I have to warn you I am a little biassed against this story on those grounds. Having said that, at the midpoint my impression is that all your story needs is fast guitars and a blast beat to be perfection. I don't think your depiction of the pastor is cartoonish, I think it is accurate. Every character in your story is well developed and reads as "real". This is nicely written short story. I am glad I stayed with it all the way to the end. The only possible criticism I could give is that there could have been a longer and more detailed description of Raven and Brian's lovemaking. This wasn't a stroker, but I think with such a long build the payoff could have been a little bigger. I look forward to further adventures. If my two cents matter, a story where Constance gets some kind of comeuppance could be a whole lot of fun.

[2981notrohrm]

Originally Posted by Belongs2Beth

I don't think your depiction of the pastor is cartoonish, I think it is accurate.

The thing about my description of the bad guy is this: Truth is always stranger than fiction, and in a couple of years, I guarantee I'll see some bozo in the news who's so much like the Reverend, only worse, that his portrayal won't seem quite as far-fetched as it might to some. Sure, he seems like an over-the-top bully now; some people are like that, and unfortunately, some have power. There will be more to his story as there will to Brian's and, most definitely, Raven's.

I'm not sure yet to go full 50 Shades and send them down a BDSM path (Brian as the dominant) or just continue to make their sex hotter, rougher, and with as much rugburn as possible, but I can say two things about the next chapter:

1. I'm busy with finals for the next two weeks, so it's a bit behind schedule, AND

2. The stripper from the bachelor party? She'll be back and in a sexier role.