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Old 11-17-2012, 08:18 PM   #1
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Sex, Conflcit, and avoiding repetition

Hoping to stretch my brain a bit. Would love for others to join me.

So I finished reading a long-ish piece here and while I thought it worthy of a 5, especially considering the competition, I had some reservations and some other thoughts after finishing. Not calling out the story just because its not nearly the only story guilty of these things, just the one where they stand out the most as the rest of the work is top notch.

Sex (will they or won't they) as the conflict: Common obviously. Depending on the cat. it can certainly be a long and winding road. What Ive noticed though, often once they "get it on", no other conflict takes its place. Sure its drawn out via the possible sex acts they could move on to but that seems a "mini conflict" to me ( do you agree/disagree?)

Ive also seen it in more than a few longer works where once they get to the fucking, the whole story then orbits the sex. I totally understand wanting to enjoy the destination after so much travel but man these people become nothing but (and often times butt) sex. I know we all do it like rabbits when we're in luuuuvvve but it just seems it could be better represented in the fiction.

Too much sex to the point it becomes repetitive: So we've finally gotten there and they are doing it constantly. And sadly, in the same ways. With the same descriptors. It may not SEEM like run of the mill monogamy sex because of the acts or language but the real killer is not the type of sex but the routine of it all. The writing becomes routine so the sex, no matter how "wicked" becomes so too.


So, I guess my questions are two fold. First, does anybody else have similar feelings or is this just a personal reader quirk Im only now identifying in myself. And two, if these are less than desirable, how would (or do, if you are already so inclined) you work around them or avoid them all together?

Its becoming harder for me not to notice these things as I go through stories. People can and do write exceptional build up to the sex but once they get there everything (and everyone ) becomes too easy. Its a shame really.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:23 PM   #2
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Uh, that's why it's called erotica....

If not for the sex, it's a long way to go for a handshake.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:27 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by TxRad View Post
Uh, that's why it's called erotica....

If not for the sex, it's a long way to go for a handshake.
Funny Tx.

But just like a handshake, there should be a logical "end" to the contact. These people seem to be connected 24/7 once they decide to go for it.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:32 PM   #4
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I fully get what you're saying. To me its the difference between erotica and porn.

I see a lot of this in incest. First off let's scrap all the "mom was hot why not?" stories and discuss the ones that make an effort.

I have read many that have done a good job building the taboo encounter, justifying it and getting it to where its sort of believable. But as you said, many times when the sex starts there is no more taboo, its off to the races.

Not in all of my work, but in much of it I have tried to have some conflict during the sex, a moment of "shit am I really doing this?" or even some hesitation and pulling back, part way through.

I feel may authors think once the sex has started you can't go back to story-at least not during-its like they're afraid to break momentum.

Personally my feeling when I read, and of course this is personal taste to me- I say its 70/30 story to sex for my enjoyment. a great storyline that may fall down a little during sex is preferred by me to a lights out sex scene with little to no story.

having said that, its what I aim for.

My V-day entry "Home is Where The heart is" was a 7 page story(mature not incest) by page 5 there was nothing more than a kiss on the cheek. The sex didn't start until the beginning of page 6.

124 comments and not one complaint. Which tells me, A I succeeded on that particular story and B there are a lot of people with my taste out there.
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Old 11-17-2012, 08:41 PM   #5
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Once the first gasp for air is reached ,so to speak, I tend to want to have more of a story to read than a blow by blow(pun intended) of the two people reinventing sex.

A simple phrase like "We made love through out the night in a tangle of sweat soaked sheets. Finally after a seemingly endless moment of passion, exhaustion drove us to sleep." sells a lot better to me after that first encounter than a play by play.

"...and she stood on her head and defied the laws of gravity."

I generally define it as heart string and g- string. Tug one then the other and you can have a good story. Pull one to hard and it's either a very sappy story or a handbook on how to put tab A into 'slut' B.

My opinion. Worth what most are.

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Old 11-17-2012, 09:04 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by lovecraft68 View Post
I fully get what you're saying. To me its the difference between erotica and porn.

I see a lot of this in incest. First off let's scrap all the "mom was hot why not?" stories and discuss the ones that make an effort.

I have read many that have done a good job building the taboo encounter, justifying it and getting it to where its sort of believable. But as you said, many times when the sex starts there is no more taboo, its off to the races.

Not in all of my work, but in much of it I have tried to have some conflict during the sex, a moment of "shit am I really doing this?" or even some hesitation and pulling back, part way through.

I feel may authors think once the sex has started you can't go back to story-at least not during-its like they're afraid to break momentum.

Personally my feeling when I read, and of course this is personal taste to me- I say its 70/30 story to sex for my enjoyment. a great storyline that may fall down a little during sex is preferred by me to a lights out sex scene with little to no story.

having said that, its what I aim for.

My V-day entry "Home is Where The heart is" was a 7 page story(mature not incest) by page 5 there was nothing more than a kiss on the cheek. The sex didn't start until the beginning of page 6.

124 comments and not one complaint. Which tells me, A I succeeded on that particular story and B there are a lot of people with my taste out there.
Incest has this in spades unfortunately. I get it though. The category needs the buildup and many do that but once they finish up with that, it becomes a fetish/taboo fest. Its so odd. Ive seen quite a few stories that, if you cut them at the right point, seem like two completely different tales. One would do well in romance though it would be lacking in sex and the other half would be a taboo fuckfest full of dirty nasty kink, a stroker through and through,

One Im thinking of specifically had maybe the best romance Ive seen in the last year of my reading here. Then their consummation was a brutal animalistic fuck where it seemed the guy was just finally claiming nothing more than a hole. My stomach literally turned and that doesnt happen to me ever.

Its weird because done either way but throughout, I wouldnt have had issue with it.

Of yours that Ive read (I like your works just its more of a challenge for my dull sensabilities ) its never run into that issue. You tend to be of the "its run its course" school and I think you meter that very very well.

I do, however, wish I could find a deft use of conflict replacement as its what I will be doing in my long story. In a weird way, I liken these relationships to kids who thinks "marriage solves everything." meaning that once you walk down the aisle everything just magically works itself out because youve "committed".

I hate childish characters even if just behaviorally. I need big boys and girls if Im going to play the games of chess I like to play in my fiction.
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Old 11-17-2012, 09:15 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MSTarot View Post
Once the first gasp for air is reached ,so to speak, I tend to want to have more of a story to read than a blow by blow(pun intended) of the two people reinventing sex.

A simple phrase like "We made love through out the night in a tangle of sweat soaked sheets. Finally after a seemingly endless moment of passion, exhaustion drove us to sleep." sells a lot better to me after that first encounter than a play by play.

"...and she stood on her head and defied the laws of gravity."

I generally define it as heart string and g- string. Tug one then the other and you can have a good story. Pull one to hard and it's either a very sappy story or a handbook on how to put tab A into 'slut' B.

My opinion. Worth what most are.

M.S.Tarot
I think you may have struck on something Tarot.

I was thinking how much I would have preferred a simple "update" to their sex life simply continuing its current trajectory than the blow by blow as you stated it.

I found myself skipping large swaths of text if it even hinted at sex because I was just over it. The conflict of will they or wont they was no more. Why keep revisiting it?

Of course this made up the bulk of the last half of the story so there really was little resolution other than some assumption that life went on much as it had. I could have stopped at the first sex and not missed anything at all. Thats poor writing IMHO.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:31 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Euphony View Post
...
Ive also seen it in more than a few longer works where once they get to the fucking, the whole story then orbits the sex. I totally understand wanting to enjoy the destination after so much travel but man these people become nothing but (and often times butt) sex. I know we all do it like rabbits when we're in luuuuvvve but it just seems it could be better represented in the fiction.

Too much sex to the point it becomes repetitive: So we've finally gotten there and they are doing it constantly. And sadly, in the same ways. With the same descriptors. It may not SEEM like run of the mill monogamy sex because of the acts or language but the real killer is not the type of sex but the routine of it all. The writing becomes routine so the sex, no matter how "wicked" becomes so too.
...
Too many authors forget that an erotic story is, first and foremost, a STORY. What you've encountered is the result; the authors forget to tell a story and just string together multiple gratuitous sex scenes.

Another common "fault" is that authors feel that posting stories to an "erotic story site" means every chapter of a long story has to have some sex, whether it fits into the storyline or not. There is some justification for the feeling that every (or nearly every) chapter should have a sex scene, because that is what many readers expect. However, that doesn't excuse simply forcing a gratuitous sex scene into an otherwise expository chapter that moves the story forward outside the bedroom.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:48 PM   #9
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And then some forget that a whole lot of readers come here just for sex scenes and that there are writers responding to that demand and not caring a whole lot what others are saying they have to write.
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Old 11-17-2012, 10:51 PM   #10
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Too many authors forget that an erotic story is, first and foremost, a STORY. What you've encountered is the result; the authors forget to tell a story and just string together multiple gratuitous sex scenes.

Another common "fault" is that authors feel that posting stories to an "erotic story site" means every chapter of a long story has to have some sex, whether it fits into the storyline or not. There is some justification for the feeling that every (or nearly every) chapter should have a sex scene, because that is what many readers expect. However, that doesn't excuse simply forcing a gratuitous sex scene into an otherwise expository chapter that moves the story forward outside the bedroom.
Agreed but the readership is also under the same false assumption. They expect sex in everything and will let you know if you dont deliver. Ultimately you can just let that chapter of the story bite the dust score wise and move along but I wonder how much you kill off your potential readership if you went a chapter or heaven forbid TWO building up to the sex.

It feels kiss of death to me.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:00 PM   #11
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Actually in the erotica book world, it long has been rather an axiom that you do need to put a sex scene in each chapter. That would seem to be more of a need on Literotica than in the book world, because in the book world the reader has the whole thing in hand and can scan forward if she/he isn't getting the sex in a chapter that she/he paid for. Here at Literotica, authors seem to think they can go ten years between posting chapters and that their readers should stick with them. If the last posted chapter didn't have any sex/arousal in it and it's going to be weeks/months/years before the next installment posts and this is an erotica story site . . .
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:02 PM   #12
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And then some forget that a whole lot of readers come here just for sex scenes and that there are writers responding to that demand and not caring a whole lot what others are saying they have to write.
I think that we are talking about stories that appear to strive for more than just strung together sex scenes (though most of these types are usually one scene "quickies" anyway)

And as far as the sex scenes only authors and readerships, they seem to get their needs met long before the longer form story erotica desiring crowd. Looking around its hard to feel they are "underserved."
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:08 PM   #13
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I think that we are talking about stories that appear to strive for more than just strung together sex scenes (though most of these types are usually one scene "quickies" anyway)

And as far as the sex scenes only authors and readerships, they seem to get their needs met long before the longer form story erotica desiring crowd. Looking around its hard to feel they are "underserved."
That's not what I'm talking about, no (the story I just sent to the editor has eight sex scenes in it--but it's got a story line that wields them all together). I strive to have stories--often very intricate stories. And I put sex/arousal in every chapter--sometimes more than once. If I don't, I'm actually writing for the mainstream and I don't post it here. The only stuff I post here that doesn't do that is sometimes for the inspirational seasonal contests--Christmas and Valentines Day, usually.

I think a lot of the "the story is more important to me than the sex" authors here are just frustrated mainstream wanna be writers who can't find a more appropriate venue for their output.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:10 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by sr71plt View Post
Actually in the erotica book world, it long has been rather an axiom that you do need to put a sex scene in each chapter. That would seem to be more of a need on Literotica than in the book world, because in the book world the reader has the whole thing in hand and can scan forward if she/he isn't getting the sex in a chapter that she/he paid for. Here at Literotica, authors seem to think they can go ten years between posting chapters and that their readers should stick with them. If the last posted chapter didn't have any sex/arousal in it and it's going to be weeks/months/years before the next installment posts and this is an erotica story site . . .
The web set up seems to condense the size of chapters while not the expectations. The ratios seem to be different of story to sex though you can cite examples to refute either point rather easily. This is merely "gut feeling" which I hope people will offer up their own.

As for the ten year scenario, Im sure it happens but is it common enough to warrant discussion? If its not a complete story (which Im assuming youre suggesting it isnt as the reader cant "look forward" then why worry if its doesnt meet the goals of the thread (finishing as strongly as a story starts)

I wouldnt buy a book that I knew to be unfinished (though I doubt most publishers would try to sell it to me in the first place) Why try to debate the whole of the work if we've established its not whole?
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:15 PM   #15
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Eh, what? I'm just trying to punch some holes in snobbery (and not knowing the industry very well) of some of this discussion. I write to connect with readers (mostly paying readers) and if there's an audience for it and I enjoy writing it, I'll vary the story-to-sex ratio along a very wide sliding scale.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:16 PM   #16
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That's not what I'm talking about, no (the story I just sent to the editor has eight sex scenes in it--but it's got a story line that wields them all together). I strive to have stories--often very intricate stories. And I put sex/arousal in every chapter--sometimes more than once. If I don't, I'm actually writing for the mainstream and I don't post it here. The only stuff I post here that doesn't do that is sometimes for the inspirational seasonal contests--Christmas and Valentines Day, usually.

I think a lot of the "the story is more important to me than the sex" authors here are just frustrated mainstream wanna be writers who can't find a more appropriate venue for their output.
So just so I understand your position (not saying I agree or disagree at this point)

Any work that does not contain sex in every chapter is therefor NOT erotic fiction but mainstream.

And mainstream requires a story but the work can stay mainstream no matter the sexual acts, context, etc etc etc.

You seem to paint with a broader brush than I would.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:24 PM   #17
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So just so I understand your position (not saying I agree or disagree at this point)

Any work that does not contain sex in every chapter is therefor NOT erotic fiction but mainstream.

And mainstream requires a story but the work can stay mainstream no matter the sexual acts, context, etc etc etc.

You seem to paint with a broader brush than I would.
That's not my position. That was the position of the print erotica industy (and may still be) before all of the "let's just do it" e-publishers popped up. Yes, with professional erotica publishers, I've had manuscripts returned that didn't do that. And you missed the part that, for the reasons they gave that guidance to writers of books, they would say it was twice as necessary in a chapter by chapter publishing system like Literotica.

What I see several of the posters to this (and similar) threads asserting as "THE" way readers want their Literotica works is a bunch of barf on how most Literotica readers have shown they want their stories.

The fact is, though, that there's room for everyone to hit their own levels. It would just be nice if they didn't flip their noses in the air and tell other writers what they should be writing and readers what they should be reading here. Be happy that you have a niche and stop ragging on what others like to write and read.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:26 PM   #18
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Eh, what? I'm just trying to punch some holes in snobbery (and not knowing the industry very well) of some of this discussion. I write to connect with readers (mostly paying readers) and if there's an audience for it and I enjoy writing it, I'll vary the story-to-sex ratio along a very wide sliding scale.
Your position as to writer for your readers has been long established. Many here don't write for the same readership you do. Some don't write for much of any readership at all. Is this snobbery? Id say reiterating you "write for profit" is more snobbish than saying I write for myself. Do I think youre a snob. Hardly.

If people wanting erotica with a solid story along with sex is bothersome to you, why subject yourself to a thread pretty much devoted to that segment of the reading population?

Um, fight the power?
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:30 PM   #19
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Your position as to writer for your readers has been long established. Many here don't write for the same readership you do. Some don't write for much of any readership at all. Is this snobbery? Id say reiterating you "write for profit" is more snobbish than saying I write for myself. Do I think youre a snob. Hardly.

If people wanting erotica with a solid story along with sex is bothersome to you, why subject yourself to a thread pretty much devoted to that segment of the reading population?

Um, fight the power?
No. Mostly calling folks and just how much they think they know about this stuff.

The trigger was the assertion the standard isn't a sex/arousal scene in every chapter, because that, in fact, IS the standard. You can certainly go against the standard and find an audience and enjoy your niche, but there are folks blowing it out of their nether regions here on how the industry actually works. And there are no such rules or "best cases" at all about posting to Literotica--there are writing and reading tastes that go from one end of the universe to the other here.

And beginners coming here to enjoy themselves writing and looking for audiences deserve to be told that they are freer to do what they want than those trying to tell them what they should do are trying to assert.

So, the reason I'm on this thread is to say to the beginners, "Don't sweat it; this is just their opinion restricted to their niche."
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:37 PM   #20
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What I see several of the posters to this (and similar) threads asserting as "THE" way readers want their Literotica works is a bunch of barf on how most Literotica readers have shown they want their stories
If the other types of readership are underserved. I hope they are comfortable enough to come here and ask for what theyd like in their stories.

Its not a matter of what "we" (who is this "we" Ive been lumped into by you, I dunno) want, demand, whatever. Its simply an underserved reader asking if anyone felt the same.

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The fact is, though, that there's room for everyone to hit their own levels. It would just be nice if they didn't flip their noses in the air and tell other writers what they should be writing and readers what they should be reading here. Be happy that you have a niche and stop ragging on what others like to write and read.
Im sorry your past dealings with fellow AHers have made you quick to categorize me in the same light. I disagree with you wholly but I know its worth neither of our times trying to change your mind.

Peace.
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Old 11-17-2012, 11:38 PM   #21
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If the other types of readership are underserved. I hope they are comfortable enough to come here and ask for what theyd like in their stories.

Its not a matter of what "we" (who is this "we" Ive been lumped into by you, I dunno) want, demand, whatever. Its simply an underserved reader asking if anyone felt the same.



Im sorry your past dealings with fellow AHers have made you quick to categorize me in the same light. I disagree with you wholly but I know its worth neither of our times trying to change your mind.

Peace.
I'm not categorizing YOU in any particular light. I haven't paid much attention to who has posted what--just the overall attitude that floats around on this forum from time to time.
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Old 11-18-2012, 01:01 AM   #22
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That's not what I'm talking about, no (the story I just sent to the editor has eight sex scenes in it--but it's got a story line that wields them all together). I strive to have stories--often very intricate stories. And I put sex/arousal in every chapter--sometimes more than once. ...
In other words, you do what I noted that many authors do NOT do.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a desire -- or need -- to have some sex in every chapter. However, there is no advantage to interrupting the flow of the story to insert a gratuitous sex scene and often a significant disadvantage to doing so. What readers notice and complain about is the equivalent of, "we interrupt this story for a obligatory sex scene... We now return you to the regularly scheduled story, already in progress."

If an author feels a need to put a sex scene every 3500 words or so, then manage the flow of the story to lead naturally to the required sex scene instead of just inserting a gratuitous scene.
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Old 11-18-2012, 01:12 AM   #23
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Doesn't have to be raw sex. Erotica is about arousal and accompanying emotions. These would be fine. But you go a whole chapter without something connected to erotic sensations, you ain't writing erotica anymore. You probablly should be chopping away at it to get it back into category control.
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Old 11-18-2012, 03:06 AM   #24
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First of all, big ups to this thread. It tackles some of the big issues that have also been swirling around my head regarding erotica. I thoroughly enjoyed reading it before it descended into an argument that seemed needless to me, as basically both sides were right, they were just talking about different things.

Anyway, on to my own thoughts...

I thoroughly agree with Euphony on his main point that a lot of stories on this site are excellent right up until the point where the main protagonists first have sex. At that point it just descends into a long, drawn-out process of filling every orifice and exploring all the sexual deviances that, until that point, that characters didn't know they had. In fact, I would go as far as to say that this is one of my biggest pet peeves. Most love stories end at the point the main protagonists get together for a reason. If the point of a story is 'will they/won't they?' then once you get to the point when they 'do' the whole basis for the story is lost. Anything after that is just needless fluff (pun intended).

Obviously erotica plays by different rules to regular fiction though. If you want to read a great story about well-developed characters not having sex, there are plenty of places you can do that. A lot of people, heck most people, who read stories on lit do so because they want to be aroused to some extent. In some stories it can be a difficult balance to achieve - including enough sex to satisfy those who are looking for that, while not compromising your story with needless sex scenes that don't really fit. I guess you can't please everybody all of the time.

Generally though I think there is room for all kinds of stories. Not every story has to be a "will they/won't they" kind of story. A lot of stories benefit from having lots of sex right from the get go. And I don't think you should underestimate the attention span of readers either. I submitted a 20,000 word story containing only one sex scene at the end. To be honest, the ending was also unconventional and I expected it to get crucified in the comments. As it turned out a few people complained about the ending, but not one person posted that the story didn't have enough sex in it. Maybe the stroker population is overstated *shrug*.
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Old 11-18-2012, 03:28 AM   #25
Stella_Omega
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Join Date: Jul 2005
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SevenSquared-- Okay, here's some opinons I can totally agree with you on! ...
Quote:
I thoroughly agree with Euphony on his main point that a lot of stories on this site are excellent right up until the point where the main protagonists first have sex. At that point it just descends into a long, drawn-out process of filling every orifice and exploring all the sexual deviances that, until that point, that characters didn't know they had. In fact, I would go as far as to say that this is one of my biggest pet peeves. Most love stories end at the point the main protagonists get together for a reason. If the point of a story is 'will they/won't they?' then once you get to the point when they 'do' the whole basis for the story is lost. Anything after that is just needless fluff (pun intended).
Seconded, in a big way. And the bolded made me laugh-- I dumped a half a novel for that reason. The suddenly discovered desire for D/s play didn't make any sense in the context of the semi-vanilla first half. it was like two different novels...

I LOVE stroker stories-- if, of course, they cater to my desires. just the fuck, no plot necessary. But I do like me some plot, and i do get irritated when a good plot is suddenly set aside for another scene of the same kind of sex I read in the last chapter. I only know one person who can tuck regularly scheduled sex scenes into a plotty long work and make it work-- sometimes.

And a couple of women writers I know can stretch out the UST for longer than is even fair. One sex scene at the very end of a looong adventure. I'm a puddle on the chair halfway there...
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