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Old 11-18-2012, 02:11 PM   #51
Stella_Omega
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Competition.

Collection
Competition? I totally believe you, but--do people compete with rapidfire semis, really? What kind of shoot is that? I am honestly asking. I've shot black powder in competition. It was great.

As far as "collection" goes, owning firearms just to own them is not responsible use,in my opinion. That's just warehousing a murder weapon until someone else steals it to murder with.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:45 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
Competition? I totally believe you, but--do people compete with rapidfire semis, really? What kind of shoot is that? I am honestly asking. I've shot black powder in competition. It was great.

As far as "collection" goes, owning firearms just to own them is not responsible use,in my opinion. That's just warehousing a murder weapon until someone else steals it to murder with.
Not true. I have several old ww2 pistols and they are not loaded and in cases. My "modern" guns are all locked up in individual cases with the ammo in a separate location.

I do have a loaded .45 in my night stand and that is my "last resort" gun. First keep in mind there are no children in my house before some starts with how dangerous that is.

The way my house is set up, our bedroom is at the end of a long hallway, where two 100+ pounds German Shepard's sleep. IF someone breaks through the door, gets through the dogs and breaks into the bedroom, oh, well for them.

I suppose if they were unarmed, I could simply disable them myself, but why would I take that chance, especially with my wife there. Sorry, but there is nothing wrong with owning a weapon for self defense. Or collecting them.


Its like anything else in life the vast majority of people are responsible with their guns, very few are, but of course that is who we're going to read about.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:45 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
Competition? I totally believe you, but--do people compete with rapidfire semis, really? What kind of shoot is that? I am honestly asking. I've shot black powder in competition. It was great.

As far as "collection" goes, owning firearms just to own them is not responsible use,in my opinion. That's just warehousing a murder weapon until someone else steals it to murder with.
There in lies the majority of the problem Stella. You see a gun as a murder weapon and nothing more.
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:50 PM   #54
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Seeing as always these conversations tend to go off the deep end let me put this out there.

You know what is absolutely dangerous?

Alcohol. As long as you;re 21 you can legally partake in it.

You can get shitfaced, get in your car and kill someone.

You can get drunk and out of control and take your gun and shoot someone-meaning it was the alcohol to blame not the gun

How many people commit crimes under the influence? DRunk driving, killing someone while drink driving, fighting, a lot of domestic violence is caused when the "man" of the family gets drunk.

So let's make it illegal.

What? No? Why not?

Wait, what's that you say? Its only a few irresponsible drinkers that do this, so you can't take booze away from everyone?

Is that what you're saying?

Of course it is.

The majority of the "guns are evil" brigade has never owned one nor will they.

But everyone likes a good buzz now and then don;t they?
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Old 11-18-2012, 02:56 PM   #55
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There in lies the majority of the problem Stella. You see a gun as a murder weapon and nothing more.
Not true. read more carefully.

I asked a question though, what kind of competition do you do with semiautomatics?
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Old 11-18-2012, 03:24 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
Not true. read more carefully.

I asked a question though, what kind of competition do you do with semiautomatics?
Most rifle competition is done with semi autos. They are not done with fully auto rifles. I don't see any need for fully automatic weapons myself other than the military.

I was a competition shooter for years with both pistols and rifles. At one time I had a rather large collection of competition hardware, hunting rifles, competition pistols and pistols that were family heirlooms. Not to mention some antique firearms that were also family heirlooms.

I've sold a lot of it off but kept selected pieces, the heirloom stuff and a couple of shotguns and one deer rifle. I also keep two 22's around. One to hunt with and the other for the grandkids to plink with.

Teach kids about guns and you won't have kids playing with them. Gangbangers excluded of course. To them, a gun is a status symbol until someone shots them with one. Then all bets are off.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:10 PM   #57
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but what kind of competition? Shooting a tree down in a hail of bullets?

I competed with black powder at Friendship IN-- gorgeous outdoor scenery, twenty types of shooting on five different ranges, white canvas tents and plenty of cultural appropriation under the guise of "historic reinactment. One shot at a time, and you have to make each shot count. The main skill is in being utterly methodical with your measurements and priming motions. (I was never that good at it)


We did a log shoot there, but it takes teams.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:26 PM   #58
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Teach kids about guns and you won't have kids playing with them. Gangbangers excluded of course. To them, a gun is a status symbol until someone shots them with one. Then all bets are off.
I would say the same thing about a lot of collectors.

And white supremacists.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:27 PM   #59
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I'm not against guns. I really just think they should be regulated like cars.

Mandatory gun safety classes. Have you registered as having a gun. Psychology test and background checks. Renew your license every few years. Make semi-automatic and automatic weapons unavailable to the average joe.

Not that crazy.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:47 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
but what kind of competition? Shooting a tree down in a hail of bullets?

I competed with black powder at Friendship IN-- gorgeous outdoor scenery, twenty types of shooting on five different ranges, white canvas tents and plenty of cultural appropriation under the guise of "historic reinactment. One shot at a time, and you have to make each shot count. The main skill is in being utterly methodical with your measurements and priming motions. (I was never that good at it)


We did a log shoot there, but it takes teams.
Get serious Stella. Semi automatic rifles shot one bullet at a time and are used in everything, including Military rifle competition. The M-14 is about as good as they get for an off the shelf match rifle.

Try silhouette target shooting with a handgun sometimes. Life sized steel silhouettes of rabbits, squirrels, turkey, ect. at 100, 200, and 300 yards. Here's a hint, lay down with your feet toward the targets, bring your knees up and your right foot up near your ass. Rest the barrel of the pistol against your boot. This gives you the longest and steadiest sight picture for the extreme range.
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Old 11-18-2012, 04:56 PM   #61
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Everyone is harping on semi automatic weapons. Most of your hunting rifles are semi automatic.

You want to know what the most feared weapon out there is? It ain't even a rifle. It's the 12 gauge pump shotgun with 3" magnum double 00 buckshot loaded. Each shell had 9 .33 caliber pellets inside and most shotguns will hold 7 rounds with one in the chamber. That's 63 .33 caliber pellets and they are concentrated in a pretty tight pattern.

And if you happen to have the riot gun version then it holds 9 rounds or 81 .33 caliber pellets.

Just be glad that most of the lunytoons don't think things through clearly.
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:32 PM   #62
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Get serious Stella. Semi automatic rifles shot one bullet at a time and are used in everything, including Military rifle competition. The M-14 is about as good as they get for an off the shelf match rifle.
Thank you for the answer to my perfectly serious question.
Quote:
Try silhouette target shooting with a handgun sometimes. Life sized steel silhouettes of rabbits, squirrels, turkey, ect. at 100, 200, and 300 yards. Here's a hint, lay down with your feet toward the targets, bring your knees up and your right foot up near your ass. Rest the barrel of the pistol against your boot. This gives you the longest and steadiest sight picture for the extreme range.
You make me want to go out to a range again!
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:36 PM   #63
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You make me want to go out to a range again!
Stella, first armed with opinions, now armed with bullets.

There goes the AH neighborhood.
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:45 PM   #64
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Thank you for the answer to my perfectly serious question.

You make me want to go out to a range again!
There was a silhouette target range Southeast of Santa Anna I used to go to but I can't remember the name of it.

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Stella, first armed with opinions, now armed with bullets.

There goes the AH neighborhood.
She seems to prefer black powder so run for it before the smoke clears.
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Old 11-18-2012, 05:46 PM   #65
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She said lawful and RESPONSIBLE
How are those irresponsible?
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Old 11-18-2012, 06:26 PM   #66
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Competition? I totally believe you, but--do people compete with rapidfire semis, really? What kind of shoot is that? I am honestly asking. I've shot black powder in competition. It was great.
TxRad answered fairly thoroughly. Pretty much any kind of competition that can be fired with muzzle-loaders or bolt-action has a large caliber and small caliber equivalent for auto-loaders. I would only add that virtually every training range, with or without pop-up targets, generates competitions for the highest score and/or fastest time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
As far as "collection" goes, owning firearms just to own them is not responsible use,in my opinion. That's just warehousing a murder weapon until someone else steals it to murder with.
So museums should be banned from displaying collections of historical firearms, too? Private collectors often have better security for their collections than museums do.

Collecting (anything) isn't always about having something just to have one. There are as many reasons for collecting as there are collectors; sorting out the "good" reasons for collecting from the "bad" reasons for collecting is virtually impossible.
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Old 11-18-2012, 07:20 PM   #67
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There was a silhouette target range Southeast of Santa Anna I used to go to but I can't remember the name of it.



She seems to prefer black powder so run for it before the smoke clears.
One event, me and the family were in full 1840 drag. My husband gave me his rifle to hold while he went back to the tent, so there I was sitting with a firearm in my petticoated lap while the gentleman in the breeches hightailed it away from me... some guys said "Aww, you're giving him a fair chance to get away!"

Good times
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Old 11-18-2012, 08:18 PM   #68
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One event, me and the family were in full 1840 drag.
1840?

I tend to prefer to shop in 1540. Some of the rapier fighters use black powder pistols. They don't put powder in them (silly Sca rule about explosives on site) Instead they cut a grove in the front of the barrel and hook a washing machine drive belt to it. Then they hook that under the hammer. Pull the trigger and you have the ultimate rubberband gun. Snap, pop... Owwwww!


We were at an event attending a play. Big guy in Viking garb is on stage telling about the wonders of his battleaxe.

"See my battleaxe? Isn't it a wonderful battleaxe?"

My wife, "Yes but it looks nothing like my Mother."

She killed production for twenty minutes.


Target shooting? We do that. We use this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwNLwC6O3hQ

a skilled crew can get about four bolts a minute. They have about the hitting power of a shotgun.

This video takes longer to get to see but shows a guy shooting threw steel plate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...FtSIvbnPk&NR=1

Also good times.

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Old 11-18-2012, 10:31 PM   #69
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Actually I meant to type 1740, not 1840. OOPS!

I enjoy renaissance faires too. But I prefer the rendezvous reinactments, which are less tourist events and more DIY.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:50 PM   #70
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I can't remember from which NPR show I heard this, but I think there's some value to it. I'm paraphrasing from memory:

Other democracies disarmed their populace before they became democratic.

Protecting "our way of life" doesn't require a gun in every oven.
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Old 11-18-2012, 10:51 PM   #71
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See without getting into a big argument here is the basic problem with gun control.

The nutbags like this guy and the gang bangers and drug dealers and violent criminals will always have the guns because they will break the law to get them like they break the law in every other facet of their existence.

What gun control does is take away the rights to law abiding citizens to have guns for self defense from said nut jobs or to go hunting or just for the hobby of shooting.

That's the problems with gun control you're controlling the already "controllable" people who have blue cards, who have legally obtained their weapons and are responsible with them.

These fruit loops will always get their hands on them.

Remember guns don't kill people.....

Meanwhile lets legalize a mind altering narcotic and pretend the only people who will have it are people using it for medicinal purposes.

These are some screwy times we're living in. Matter of fact who wants to bet Mr. Pyschopath smokes weed?
Your response shows part of the problem with the debate about guns, that is the NRA position, that anyone should be able to buy any kind of gun they want, no limits, the same way you would buy a box of nails or a hammer. I am not saying ban guns, but what I am saying is make the process such that you limit the ability of people to use them who shouldn't be, and take out of people's hands guns that have no legitimate reasons.

For example, people bring up hunting, yet assault rifles are not hunting weapons, true hunters would never use them, they are inaccurate as hell and quite frankly, gunning down a dear with a semi automatic isn't particularly sporting, not to mention dangerous with people out in the woods. Those guns are wildly inaccurate, the rules for qualifying them on the military are way different then on a standard rifle, because frankly they suck as precision instruments, a hunting rifle on the other hand can allow someone to hit 10 out of 10 targets at 800 meters.

Self defense? A handgun or a shotgun work just as well in the kind of situations where people are defending themselves, and an assault rifle with a large capacity clip is a menace in most situations, because the odds of killing an innocent person are large. You open up with a semi in a house and the odds of ricochets and such is huge, something a shotgun or handgun doesn't have. Plus where are you going to need 400 capacity clips? Fighting off the north korean invasion as in the new "Red Dawn"?

Semi automatic rifles like the AK47 and such are military weapons, meant for mass assault, and I realize the patriot party types think the new world order is on its way and they are going to be fighting the government but I think they have played too many video games, on top of everything else, those semis against fully automatic weaponry the military has wouldn't do much. I think maybe the NRA and the nutjob fringe have to give up on the idea of an armed revolt happening or being needed, this isn't 1776.

Yeah, tragedies will still happen, but when you have someone with a semi automatic rifle with an extended clip in it as was shown in aurora you can gun down in seconds what would take someone with a handgun a long time to do. Plus someone with a handgun can be taken out when they reload, a 7 or 10 shot clip wears out, someone could nail the in the interim, someone with an assault weapon with a 400 bullet clip on it isn't going to be stopped before he kills a lot of people.

And there is no one out there, I mean no one, who can give me a legitimate reason to own extended clips like that, unless they live their lives as some sort of pathetic Rambo type.

And yeah, I hear the arguments that they will just buy them illegally if they want them, but the point is, that makes it a lot more expensive to do. If assault weapons were illegal, getting them would be a hassle and only the most hardened criminals would be able to afford them, you wouldn't see them used in numbers. Ask any big city cop, and they will tell you that the biggest enemy they face are lax gun laws down south, where any dope can walk into joe billy bob's gunstore, fill up his trunk with weapons, and drive up north and sell them to the bad guys, and there is no accountability, if someone asks what happened to the gun, they will smirk and say "I done lost it" or "it was stolen".....put it this way, we have tighter laws on cars then we do on guns, in terms of responsibility, if your car is used in commision of a crime and you hadn't reported it stolen, you would likely be held accountable as an accomplice unless you could show you didn't know the car had been stolen, but with guns? No accountability. Legitimate gun owners should be held accountable for the weapons they own, that if they are lost and stolen they get reported in, which would stop the idiocy of gun shops down south. Likewise, legitimate users should not be afraid to be registered, since we do that with cars and boats and the like, with anything that can cause serious problems we have laws on responsibility that doesn't exist with guns.

Yes, people kill people which other laws recognize as well. Substances like cyanide are heavily regulated, you cannot just go in and buy it unless you have a legitimate reason. As a civilian you can't buy dynamite or plastic explosives, even if you say you want it to blow rocks or stumps on your property. Likewise, an assault weapon with a large capacity clip on it has no legitimate purpose in hunting or in self defense, it is a weapon like dynamite that has specific uses that are not within the realm of what ordinary people need. Playing Rambo, to make some little shrimp of a guy feel like a Navy Seal is no reason to have them legal.

And likewise, tighter gun control rules also means keeping them out of the hands of certified wackjobs. I don't know who this clown is, but if they had the background tests they use in NJ, it may very well be, like the Korean kid who wiped out how many at Virginian Tech, he never would have gotten a gun and certainly wouldn't have been able to kill the numbers he did.

I am not arguing for a total ban on guns, but the NRA position is just as stupid as those saying ban all guns. We need rational laws that keep guns out of the hands of pychos and criminals, and that involves having guns sales where there isn't the wide open loopholes there exists now for legitimate gun sales to feed the black market with no repercussions. Arguing that guns should be as easy to purchase a a box of nails or a hammer is not maintaining gun rights, it is a way to allow the wrong people to get the wrong weapons way too easily, and arguing individual rights is a non starter, because individual rights fall away to the collective, any right we have is tempered by the needs of society, whether it is free speech, freedom of religion, the right to assembly, all of them are tempered by the best interests of society.

Many years ago I was at the infamous fly is in Oshkosh (kind of nirvana for airplane fans, a good friend of mine flew us there in his plane), guy came in with a restored German ME109, it was pretty awesome. It had the machine guns on it, and he was forced to lead the barrels because they didn't want operating machine guns for obvious reasons. Fully automatic weapons are illegal (though anyone with a bit of knowledge can turn a semi into full automatic mode with a little but of work, it isn't that hard).

Extremes are always a problem, and the NRA always bothers me. For a group that has a first class gun safety program, their libertarian, let anyone buy what they want where they want is an extremist position that eventually is going to get them in trouble, because we have enough Aurora's and the like and it is likely the laws will swing too far the other way. I often have NRA types talk about the high crime rates in places like NY and NJ, but the reality is that violent crimes in this area are relatively low in terms of population, whereas a state like Texas with loose gun laws and right to carry laws is one of the top 5 violent crime states in the country. Likewise, NRA types argue that strict gun control laws haven't kept guns off the street, but that leaves out that between 60-70% of the weapons cops pull off the streets from the hands of criminals were purchased legally in a handful of states with incredibly loose gun laws.

Ironically, my position is in part because though I don't hunt and I don't have guns for protection, I respect people's rights to have them. I respect genuine sportsmen and hunters because they are generally very conscientious people, who understand that a weapon is a big responsibility and treat them as such, and when they hunt they do so respecting the rules (as opposed to the yuppies and the drunken bozos who go out into the country, get drunk, pop at anything that moves and are a menace). I only hope they realize that by having rational gun laws it will stop those who truly hate guns, who want to ban them for everyone, from winning the debate. The country is becoming less and less rural, population is concentrating in dense swatches of the country, and what I fear and what I think the NRA should is when the power balance shifts from the rural areas they now enjoy, and some red states turn more purplish, that it could swing too far the other way, throwing the baby out with the bathwater. By banning certain weapons that have no place in private hands the way dynamite doesn't, and having laws that make sure that legitimate people can buy guns but gun dealers and shady people can't buy guns legally and them put them with impunity in the black market, it will probably mean those rights will be maintained.

I would also redraft the second amendment to both give private ownership of guns clear language to make sure it isn't taken away (the second amendment as written is as nebulous as the words to Louie Louie) and also put into it the right of the government to regulate how weapons are bought and sold. The coast guard requires all states to regulate boats over a certain size on navigable waters,forces them to register them and so forth, it isn't unreasonable to have uniform standards for buying and selling guns.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:19 PM   #72
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The point is the crazies will get them whether you regulate them or not because they will obtain them illegally.

That's what you and people like you don't understand. If the average person no longer has the ability to defend themselves what happens?

break ins and home invasions go way the hell up. Right now what holds them back is they never know who's house they're breaking into and their asses may just get shot.

all tighter control laws do is affect people who wouldn't be dangerous in the first place.
That isn't true, love craft. I agree that a total ban on guns is idiotic and I don't favor it, but having rational gun control laws can go a long way to assuring that only people who should own them do. Semi automatic assault weapons have no place in hunting and in terms of self defense, unless someone is fighting a hoard of zombies in a field, are overkill and dangerous for personal protection, especially inside a house let's say, just too much chance of a round zinging off and killing a kid in the next room, if the idiot lets fly with a whole clip. A handgun or a shotgun work pretty effectively in close quarters and don't have the richochet problems of a semi.

The key thing to consider is that the large majority of guns used in crimes , as much as 70%, were purchased legitimately and ended up in the hands of criminals. As a result, the prices on the black market are very, very low, because these weapons can be bought legally at competitive prices then put on the black market. If we made getting guns more difficult, if for example assault weapons were banned or restricted, the price of black market guns would go through the roof, it is always more expensive to get them illegally then when bought legally. You cut off a significant portion that comes through the legal purchase channel and not every gang banger in Bed Stuy can buy a bloody uzi or whatever, isn't going to happen if it costs a couple of thousand versus a couple of hundred (I don't know what an uzi goes for, using a hypothetical here).

My problem with current law is that in many places, you buy a gun it goes into a black hole, buy a trunkful of guns and some of them end up feeding the black market, and get traced back, there is no accountability. If you have to register the guns you have, there is accountability, if they are legitimately lost or stolen you have to account for them; today, I can buy a trunkful of guns in virginia, bring them to NYC and sell them, and even if traced back, I can say "I don't know nothing, they were stolen, or lost" and there are no penalties.

Yeah, I know, the Patriot Militia types believe they need semis to ward off the people attacking in the zombie apocalypse or when they spawn the second american revolution to bring white men back into power or force Jesus into people's lives, but the reality is against the real military they would be outgunned with their semis *shrug*.

If it is for sporting or personal protection, then a semi doesn't make sense, and if it is really for that then reasonable controls make sense as well. The problem with the NRA and its wal mart idea of gun purchases is eventually it is going to backfire on them, they are going to see real bans when the population shifts make pro gun owner types the minority and where politically pissing off the NRA isn't a big liability. The NRA argues it is a libertarian position, but it isn't, it is just people who are in the fringes of belief who think guns are gonna keep off those coming to 'take away America', and if they keep that eventually they are going to lose, big time, the rural power base is dying off, young people are moving away, and demographics are that the NRA as power broker is going to be diminished. If the NRA took a reasonable position and went to the middle, trying to assure the rights of hunters and people defending themselves (NJ is ridiculous, for example, you need a permit for a BB gun, idiotic, but true) while supporting rational laws that aren't too much of a burden on legitimate gun owners but prevent it from being abused as it is today, they would be in good shape.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:31 PM   #73
MSTarot
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
Actually I meant to type 1740, not 1840. OOPS!

I enjoy renaissance faires too. But I prefer the rendezvous reinactments, which are less tourist events and more DIY.
Not reny fair. Society of Creative Anachronism, SCA. We don't mind the public if they pay to get in like the rest of us, (about 12-15 dollars to camp for the whole weekend.It pays for the showers, bathrooms, and site rental.) but for the most part we're a private group.

http://www.sca.org/

Best description of us I've ever heard is "A private group, that hosts a sporting event, attended by people perfectly at home at a frat party."

grin.
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Old 11-19-2012, 08:56 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by MSTarot View Post
Not reny fair. Society of Creative Anachronism, SCA. We don't mind the public if they pay to get in like the rest of us, (about 12-15 dollars to camp for the whole weekend.It pays for the showers, bathrooms, and site rental.) but for the most part we're a private group.

http://www.sca.org/

Best description of us I've ever heard is "A private group, that hosts a sporting event, attended by people perfectly at home at a frat party."

grin.
Yeah I know the SCA. I tend to lump them in with the ren faire crowd, mea culpa. I know they are not the same, in intent or effect.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:49 PM   #75
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Yeah I know the SCA. I tend to lump them in with the ren faire crowd, mea culpa. I know they are not the same, in intent or effect.
As a lapsed SCAdian, I think it's one of those Judean People's Front/People's Front of Judea things that matters much more to the parties involved than to any of the bystanders...
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