Any ideas about these questions...

[dej]

Being over the internet for a while, reading all sorts of info about BDSM has confused me in certain aspects, i was wondering if you can help.

1. First of all i want to ask about the agreement between a dom and a sub, what kind of aspects should it define? for example what are the soft/hard limits that should be included? and if so, would you proceed in any kind of activity with that person (the Dom I mean) if he/she did not wish to make a pre-arrangement or deal with you as a sub of some kind so you know what's on the program? The feedback that i got is that no real dom makes a deal before hand with the sub because it spoils the surprise. Is this true or no?

2. There is a sub-cuture that says that subs should not tell the dom what to do, it the D's orders, wishes, ect. So what happens if a person wants to offer pleasure but also has the tendency to want to switch roles afterwards with the Dom?

3. Other opinions say that only the Dom's pleasure counts and as a Dom they should not care at all about how the sub feels about a certain action, the sub should get satisfaction despite the action just from pleasuring the Dom. So in few words, is this the key aspect of the BDSM? so to say a person that has kinks but wants limitations and also wants these actions that are perfomed during the session to be pleasurable for both ends is considered what? a vanilla with fetish?

i am new to all of these as you understand and certain things fall into my logic, others dont but in general i do not seem to fall into the boundaries of the bdsm community for multiple reasons. Whoever wishes to answer any of the above or any, is welcomed

[Sir_Winston54]

Originally Posted by dej

Being over the internet for a while, reading all sorts of info about BDSM has confused me in certain aspects, i was wondering if you can help.

1. First of all i want to ask about the agreement between a dom and a sub, (1) what kind of aspects should it define? for example (2) what are the soft/hard limits that should be included? and if so, (3) would you proceed in any kind of activity with that person (the Dom I mean) if he/she did not wish to make a pre-arrangement or deal with you as a sub of some kind so you know what's on the program? The feedback that i got is that no real dom makes a deal before hand with the sub because it spoils the surprise. (4) Is this true or no?

Oy freakin' vey!

1. All.
2. Whatever *your* and the Dom's hard and soft limits are. That's WHY there are limits, why there are checklists.
3. No. (And I'm a sadist. I like hurting women. I like hurting women a lot. I do NOT engage in ANY activities as a sadist with a woman with whom I have not thoroughly discussed what activities I would like to perform, what activities *she* would like to perform, what results we each expect (bruises, welts, broken skin, bleeding, whether there is or is not to be a sexual component before, during and/or after such activities, etc., etc., etc.). Surprise is not your friend (as a submissive or masochist), nor your partner's (as a Dominant or sadist).
4. No.

Originally Posted by dej

2. (1) There is a sub-cuture that says that subs should not tell the dom what to do, it the D's orders, wishes, ect. (2) So what happens if a person wants to offer pleasure but also has the tendency to want to switch roles afterwards with the Dom?

1. That's called Master/slave, and it's an entirely different discussion.
2. Then you're discussing switching, and you need to find someone who's primarily a PYL of whatever version(s), but enjoys switching, and negotiate how that will work (see response #3 in the preceding).

Originally Posted by dej

3. Other opinions say that (1) only the Dom's pleasure counts and as a Dom they should not care at all about how the sub feels about a certain action, the sub should get satisfaction despite the action just from pleasuring the Dom. So in few words, (2) is this the key aspect of the BDSM? so to say (3) a person that has kinks but wants limitations and also wants these actions that are perfomed during the session to be pleasurable for both ends is considered what? a vanilla with fetish?

1. Again: Master/slave, different discussion.
2. No.
3. Since you provide no specifics regarding your personal desires in a BDSM relationship, it's hard to say, but generally it appears that you're interested in a negotiated Dominant/submissive relationship that involves pleasure for both partners.

Originally Posted by dej

i am new to all of these as you understand and certain things fall into my logic, others dont but in general i do not seem to fall into the boundaries of the bdsm community for multiple reasons. Whoever wishes to answer any of the above or any, is welcomed

If you could be more specific about the types of activities you're interested in, the limits you are currently aware of, and the depth of information and experience you have with those activities and limits, some here might be able to offer more insight than I. As far as your comment that you "do not seem to fall into the boundaries of the bdsm community for multiple reasons," those boundaries are pretty damned wide and pretty damned inclusive. Perhaps it's just that you haven't yet been able to define for yourself where within those boundaries you fit.

[Bramblethorn]

Originally Posted by dej

Being over the internet for a while, reading all sorts of info about BDSM has confused me in certain aspects, i was wondering if you can help.

Short answer: there's no One True Way to do BDSM, beyond basic principles of safety and consent.

If you enjoy the sort of relationship where you focus solely on your dom's pleasure, that's fine, and I'm sure you'll have no difficulty finding doms who are into that. But any dom who tells you that's the ONLY way to practise BDSM is feeding you a line.

Originally Posted by dej

1. First of all i want to ask about the agreement between a dom and a sub, what kind of aspects should it define? for example what are the soft/hard limits that should be included?

As much or as little as the two of you want. I don't have any formal agreement at all with mine, and that's never been a problem, although we certainly talk enough to establish hard limits. Some that you may want to consider: risky activities e.g. breathplay, anything with potential for public exposure (e.g. photos), monogamy and STI safety.

Originally Posted by dej

The feedback that i got is that no real dom makes a deal before hand with the sub because it spoils the surprise. Is this true or no?

Anybody who begins a sentence with "no real dom..." is probably best ignored. If they want to say "my personal style is..." that's fine, and it's up to you to decide whether you'd like to work with that. But presenting it as the One Twoo Way is bullshit.

Re. "no surprises": I think there's room for surprises within the bounds of what your partner is comfortable with, but the responsible party (usually the dom) needs to take responsibility for figuring out enough of those bounds to gauge whether their surprise is appropriate. A formal agreement is one way to do that and works well for some folk, but it's not the only way.

Originally Posted by dej

2. There is a sub-cuture that says that subs should not tell the dom what to do, it the D's orders, wishes, ect. So what happens if a person wants to offer pleasure but also has the tendency to want to switch roles afterwards with the Dom?

Then they insist on that sort of relationship (or compromise, depending on how strongly they feel about it and what's being offered).

Originally Posted by dej

3. Other opinions say that only the Dom's pleasure counts and as a Dom they should not care at all about how the sub feels about a certain action, the sub should get satisfaction despite the action just from pleasuring the Dom. So in few words, is this the key aspect of the BDSM? so to say a person that has kinks but wants limitations and also wants these actions that are perfomed during the session to be pleasurable for both ends is considered what? a vanilla with fetish?

Anybody who tells you that "it's not BDSM unless you do X for me" is a manipulative jerk and you should stay clear of them. Focus on what works for you, NOT on what a sub "ought" to be doing.

If you like total submission that's great. If you want to be spanked lightly for five minutes and then get half an hour of gentle vanilla sex, that's great too. Neither is better than the other, you don't lose your Certified Sub Card just because your tastes are more/less extreme than some other person's.

It's not a contest.

Originally Posted by dej

i am new to all of these as you understand and certain things fall into my logic, others dont but in general i do not seem to fall into the boundaries of the bdsm community for multiple reasons. Whoever wishes to answer any of the above or any, is welcomed

I get the impression somebody is trying to browbeat you into fitting their idea of what a sub ought to be (i.e.: the kind of sub they want) by telling you that it's the only right way to do BDSM. If that's the case, they're full of shit and you should stay away from this person. "I'm not the sub you're looking for."

The "BDSM community" is very diverse and it has room for a very wide range of styles. Look for people whose preferred styles mesh with yours, rather than trying to shoehorn your own style to meet their approval. (Other than that minimal safety/consent thing, that is.) Sometimes it can be frustrating trying to find the right partner, but in the long run it works much better.

[Stella_Omega]

do not do anything you don't want to do.

Not making a deal before hand-- does this person use the term "negotiate?" because if they don't, they don't know jack shit about BDSM as it has developed over the past three decades.

Join fetlife.com which is like a facebook for pervs, and get talking to people

Also, read the rant linked to in my sig, it might be useful to you.

[njlauren]

Rather then answer your specific questions, the real answer is it is all up to the relationship you decide to have with your partner. Don't let anyone ever tell you rules like this and claim 'this is the truth', with BD/SM in its various forms it always depends on the people involved. A couple of my thoughts on what you wrote:

1)People who play formally or informally generally talk through things that might be an issue. Usually what happens IME is that people grow over time, when I started BD/SM play I had limits that would fit the manhattan phone book, maybe....over time as I experienced things, as limits were pushed, I grew, things I used to say "no way" became "wow!" over time.

Later on people sometimes formalize these rules in writing, the limits and so forth, but a lot of people simply agree.

The key thing is it is consensual, things you do have to be agreed upon by both. It is one thing to stretch a limit, it would be another for a dominant to simply do something to the sub (and obviously, it depends on what we are talking about; a dominant who does sensation play with an ice cube and a hot water bottle, sandpaper and a piece of fur, is probably not going to do any damage. A dominant who ties up a sub and starts using a singletail on them without them knowing is doing something stupid.

The element of surprise should happen within what is negotiated, so if you guys have done work with whips or canes, the surprise might be when they use them. Usually when introducing new things into play it is discussed first, least it was in my experience, you don't want to drop a surprise with something that could freak the sub out.

As far as it being only for the dominants pleasure, that is someone talking about a D/s or M/s (Dominance/submssion, Master/slave) relationship, and that again is about the people involved. People in D/s and such relationships don't have to have this either, that is a feature of a specific relationship, not a general rule of all such relationships. I know M/s relationships where the master loves pleasing his slave (or mistress/slave), it all depends. What you describe is an extreme form of that kind of relationship, I don't even think it is a norm..

The nice part about getting involved in this is that there is always room to grow and change and to find what works for you and your partner. If your partner is more experienced, then hopefully they can guide you along and help you grow, but you still have the right to define the bounds of what happens, or rather, help set them. Every relationship is different and about the only rule I would say is sacronsanct is that what goes on has to be consensual, something both parties agree to, after that, read about what others do, find ideas, but these are custom relationships, and if anyone tells you you have to do this to be authentic, that to be real, pull down your pants and say, to quote John Cleese in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" 'I fart in your general direction, you englisha pig dog' *smile*..in fact, the person who gave you feedback that said a dominant should never discuss it with a sub before hand or ask for permission should get a lot more then a fart thrown their way....

[dej]

THANK SO MUCH
about your answers and suggested threads and links, they helped me clarify so many things in my head that were mixed up due to mixing the sub's role with the sole purpose to please the Dom. You were really a great source of comfort i can say, you are great, thanks again.