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Old 11-05-2012, 07:07 PM   #51
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Sr71plt "Rape isn't erotic, though. It's self-centered assault. It may be sex, but it isn't eroticism, which requires, in my mind, sensual arousal by all parties."

Disagree with that statement entirely.

In vivo, the act of rape isn't erotic in the same vein that for me the real act of incest or pedophilia isn't 'erotic'. We're talking fantasy.

You might want to ask women why rape fantasies figure so prevalently - I base this anecdotally on women I speak to, of course, however, it seems a pretty common fantasy for 'women'. Surely, for these women, the act of rape, being dominated, utterly subjugated is HIGHLY EROTIC for them or it wouldn't be arousing.

Think you're looking at 'rape' literally, in vivo, as it were and purely form the male perspective.
Just realised that saying 'the real act of pedophilia isn't erotic" might make it look like I'm into fictional pedophilia which, I'm most def. not.
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:13 PM   #52
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I told him/her that this was a smart group. When the Prof reams him/her a new asshole for the way he/she handled things here, maybe he/she will believe me.
FWIW, I'm not looking to get anybody in trouble. I don't think the OP came here looking for a fight, more likely they just didn't think things through well enough.

Grad students slip up sometimes, it's part of the learning process, and often a quiet word from a supervisor is all that's required. I used to work with a professor who enjoyed ripping into his grad students, and it's not something I'd wish on ANYBODY. Grad school is scary enough without that.
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:17 PM   #53
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FWIW, I'm not looking to get anybody in trouble. I don't think the OP came here looking for a fight, more likely they just didn't think things through well enough.

Grad students slip up sometimes, it's part of the learning process, and often a quiet word from a supervisor is all that's required. I used to work with a professor who enjoyed ripping into his grad students, and it's not something I'd wish on ANYBODY. Grad school is scary enough without that.
I'm not looking to get anyone in trouble either. I was more thinking along the lines of his second question:

Many individuals probably have very stereotypical ideas about the individuals that write about particular themes.

And I think he underestimated the IQ's around here.
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:19 PM   #54
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Sr71plt "Rape isn't erotic, though. It's self-centered assault. It may be sex, but it isn't eroticism, which requires, in my mind, sensual arousal by all parties."

Disagree with that statement entirely.
My position--which I think I stated--is that underlying the desire for the experience--on the other side of the the inhibition--is a real desire for it if has anything at all to do with eroticism. Thus it isn't rape to the receiver. It's a form of release--release of inhibition and of guilt ("someone else has taken all of the responsibility.") If it's a subconscious "no" as well as a surface "no," it's criminal rape.

I believe rape is a crime of anger and is not remotely erotic. I believe, as I stated, that it requires sensual arousal--and underlying "yes"--by all parties to be eroticism.

You can certainly disagree with me as you like.
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:39 PM   #55
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My position--which I think I stated--is that underlying the desire for the experience--on the other side of the the inhibition--is a real desire for it if has anything at all to do with eroticism. Thus it isn't rape to the receiver. It's a form of release--release of inhibition and of guilt ("someone else has taken all of the responsibility.") If it's a subconscious "no" as well as a surface "no," it's criminal rape.

I believe rape is a crime of anger and is not remotely erotic. I believe, as I stated, that it requires sensual arousal--and underlying "yes"--by all parties to be eroticism.

You can certainly disagree with me as you like.
To me the word rape itself removes all eroticism rape and erotic are as vastly different as non consent/reluctance.

Reluctance somewhere there is a choice and usually that underlying surrender

Non-consent is rape pure and simple. Hence the hypocrisy of a site saying they don't allow flat out rape stories, yet have a non consent section.
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:43 PM   #56
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My position--which I think I stated--is that underlying the desire for the experience--on the other side of the the inhibition--is a real desire for it if has anything at all to do with eroticism. Thus it isn't rape to the receiver. It's a form of release--release of inhibition and of guilt ("someone else has taken all of the responsibility.") If it's a subconscious "no" as well as a surface "no," it's criminal rape.

I believe rape is a crime of anger and is not remotely erotic. I believe, as I stated, that it requires sensual arousal--and underlying "yes"--by all parties to be eroticism.

You can certainly disagree with me as you like.
Can you run that by me again in simple form because I'm several glasses of wine down and it reads like a car crash.

Underlying the desire for the experience (by experience you mean rape? - from the perspective of the perpetrator or the victim?).

on the otherside of the inhibition - what & who's inhibition is this referring to? Inhibition for sex? Not sure what you're getting at.

Is a real desire for it if has anything to do with eroticism. Can you expand? I'm not being facetious I just don't understand what you're driving at.

Thus it isn't rape for the receiver - if the act of rape is real and not imaginary I would imagine it's a) not erotic b) most def. real for the receiver. If we're talking fantasy then the act of rape isn't real for perpetrator or victim by inference.

It's an act of release....from guilt and inhibition - I'm with you and can see that as a being a catalyst for arousal in SOME women. I expect that there are many other factors in the fantasy of rape that arouse women though.

The rest makes no sense to me.
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Old 11-05-2012, 07:51 PM   #57
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1) What is the motivation for your writing/reading?

Reading for fun, writing as a challenge and recapturing my childhood aspirations of wanting to become an author.

2) What types of career/education/family life do you have? Many individuals probably have very stereotypical ideas about the individuals that write about particular themes.

I received a GED at 20 an MBA at 30 that collects dust as the only time I ever used anything I learned was when I put together a business plan to get a loan for a retail store. I've also taken several psychology courses for fun, but have no desire to try for a degree. I'm on my second marriage and have 2 adult daughters from my first wife. I currently have a teenage foster child in my care.

3) How much do you value your anonymity and what do you think might be the consequences if it were broken?

I value it mostly because what I do is no one's business. If it were broken I doubt there would be any consequences except some ball busting about writing incest stories. Although I suppose it could affect my status as qualifying as a foster parent.

4) How many stories have you written personally? How many in personal archive?

I have I think 67 here and maybe another 60 or so that won't make it here. That's erotica, I have a couple of dozen horror tales that I may eventually try to publish.

5) What did you think about 50 Shades of Grey and its influence on the erotica literature genre?

Read the threads here. IN the AH its pretty much pointed out as being a poorly written rip off of another author's work( the original shades was called "Master of the universe and was an all out fanfic James then rewrote it into shades)

In the BDSM community the book is reviled as a pile of misconceptions about abuse and mental illness tying to BDSM. Gray is an abusive asshole not a dom.

I answered your questions in a yeah, why not? Fashion. I don;t believe you're a researcher, but more of a "fisher"

If you're really curious about the Rape/non-con "myth" and the factions and accuracies thereof PM me and I'll answer your questions.

I won't do them here because I'm tired of defending my position to the clueless.
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:01 PM   #58
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Can you run that by me again in simple form because I'm several glasses of wine down and it reads like a car crash.

Underlying the desire for the experience (by experience you mean rape? - from the perspective of the perpetrator or the victim?).

on the otherside of the inhibition - what & who's inhibition is this referring to? Inhibition for sex? Not sure what you're getting at.

Is a real desire for it if has anything to do with eroticism. Can you expand? I'm not being facetious I just don't understand what you're driving at.

Thus it isn't rape for the receiver - if the act of rape is real and not imaginary I would imagine it's a) not erotic b) most def. real for the receiver. If we're talking fantasy then the act of rape isn't real for perpetrator or victim by inference.

It's an act of release....from guilt and inhibition - I'm with you and can see that as a being a catalyst for arousal in SOME women. I expect that there are many other factors in the fantasy of rape that arouse women though.

The rest makes no sense to me.
Fantasy rape is about the surrender of control, of just being "taken" It is a fantasy shared by many women, but unlike most fantasies nothing they would ever want to really experience.

Real rape is called a crime of passion, but its really just anger. Its rarely pre meditated and many times the woman knows the attacker. It is also nothing like the ridiculous fantasy stories here and is a short violent very un-enjoyable act.

There was a case of a serial rapist who only killed one of his victims. The reason he killed her? In an interview with him once he was incarcerated, he told the FBI agent that the reason he killed her was because she began to pretend to enjoy it, even faked an orgasm. he was enraged because she was NOT supposed to enjoy it, that killed it for him.

Not every man is capable of rape. Most of them who commit have underlying fear or hatred of women, stemming from poor maternal relationships or always feeling powerless to them.

They are not sexy and sophisticated like Mr. Gray, they are low on the financial pole, socially stunted and do very poorly with women, which leads to that hate even paranoia that women are laughing at them and out to get them.

Many are also very meek and usually doormats for other men as well. The type to be bullied and always plotting to get even. Those feelings are what eventually drives them to hurt a woman, because they have no chance and fear men and any real confrontation.
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:08 PM   #59
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Can you run that by me again in simple form because I'm several glasses of wine down and it reads like a car crash.
Yes, I came back to this (after eating my supper), because I didn't think I directly responded to your "there are women who . . ." observation.

My view is that if there is a fundamental "no" at the base of a receiver's (I can't just think of women as being in this position) thinking about the experience, there is no "rape fantasy" in the receiver's mind at all--it's just plain old criminal rape--and will continue to be seen as such by the receiver.

There has to be a "yes" or "I'm curious" under there for there to be any fantasy lure whatsoever. If there isn't--either in real life or a story--than it's flat out criminal rape if it happens and is not remotely connected to eroticism. That it's not is couched in my belief that all parties involved have to have a erotic response for it to be eroticism.

All along, I've focused on the receiver's perceptions as controlling this. I can see the pitcher as having a jolly good time and not caring whether it's a genuine "yes" or "maybe" from the receiver. If the pitcher is lucky, there was a "yes" underneath all of that. If the pitcher is unlucky, it may be "off to jail."

I can understand exactly what you are saying with the "there are women who . . ." observation, because I went through that phase myself--but in gay terms, not hetero. After my initial gay seduction (which was a process, not an event) rather late in my sexual life (late twenties) after years of being dense to that possibility at all, the underlying "yes" guilt led me into a phase of putting myself in the position of being taken forceably. I was doing it because there was "yes/again please" underneath it and "I shouldn't" on the surface. Doing that enabled me to rationalize it with the "all responsibility is out of my hands" copout. So, I would say that is what "there are women who . . ." are calling a rape fantasy. It wasn't rape though (or even nonconsent), because underneath it was that "yes." (Happily, I shortly went into the "what the hell" phase, aided by the discovery that what I thought would be a career breaker was seen as a career opportunity by my employer.)

As noted on other threads, that's what there usually is in Literotica nonconsent stories. ("And when it was over, she/he realized they enjoyed it and want it again.")

So, I'm saying that I think all of those "there are women who . . ." you brought up have a "yes" underneath it--and therefore, for them, it's not really a rape fantasy, it's a "surrender of control" fantasy. And they are separate from the women who genuinely have a "no" underneath it all. Those women don't fantasize about it. And if it actually happens to them, they have been raped.
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:23 PM   #60
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You might want to ask women why rape fantasies figure so prevalently - I base this anecdotally on women I speak to, of course, however, it seems a pretty common fantasy for 'women'. Surely, for these women, the act of rape, being dominated, utterly subjugated is HIGHLY EROTIC for them or it wouldn't be arousing.
I read an essay on this type of thing, rape fantasy, and I thought it was on Lit but I couldn't find it when I searched. Rats.

Anyway, the author talked about rape fantasies and how common they are, etc., but thought they were more properly called "ravishment fantasies."

Rape, as many people have noted here, is not about eroticism or even really sex. It's about power, control and domination. It is not about equal participation or mutual satisfaction or anything else.

As I recall from the essay, and I hope I'm not mis-phrasing anything, the idea of a ravishment fantasy is that the woman is so desired by the man -- for her beauty, for her personality, for both, etc. -- that he goes after her. Then he dominates, or whatever, but it is something the woman wants. Now, it could also be about a woman (or man) having an inhibition and wanting to get over it, I imagine; it could be about a lot of things. But since reading that essay, I've thought that "ravishment fantasy" is a good way to describe at least a certain type of fantasy that has rape-type elements but isn't about rape.
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:40 PM   #61
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Yeah, I could buy into it better being termed a "ravishment fantasy." Even better than "surrender of control" fantasy, because in both real life and in written stories for me, in a sexual act as you describe, I see the control being more with the receiver than the pitcher: "You are so out of control in wanting me that you can't help taking me by force. So the control really is with me and my effect on you."
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:50 PM   #62
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I read an essay on this type of thing, rape fantasy, and I thought it was on Lit but I couldn't find it when I searched. Rats.

Anyway, the author talked about rape fantasies and how common they are, etc., but thought they were more properly called "ravishment fantasies."

Rape, as many people have noted here, is not about eroticism or even really sex. It's about power, control and domination. It is not about equal participation or mutual satisfaction or anything else.

As I recall from the essay, and I hope I'm not mis-phrasing anything, the idea of a ravishment fantasy is that the woman is so desired by the man -- for her beauty, for her personality, for both, etc. -- that he goes after her. Then he dominates, or whatever, but it is something the woman wants. Now, it could also be about a woman (or man) having an inhibition and wanting to get over it, I imagine; it could be about a lot of things. But since reading that essay, I've thought that "ravishment fantasy" is a good way to describe at least a certain type of fantasy that has rape-type elements but isn't about rape.
Now that I get - but then there's almost a romantic element to it. I can think of certainly one woman I've spoken to that got off on the fantasy of being truly forced against her will though. For me that is rape however you want to square the circle. So how & where does that fit in ?
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:54 PM   #63
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Now that I get - but then there's almost a romantic element to it. I can think of certainly one woman I've spoken to that got off on the fantasy of being truly forced against her will though. For me that is rape however you want to square the circle. So how & where does that fit in ?
And I think she was either fooling you or herself. I think for her to get off on it, there had to be a "yes" and/or "I'm curious" underneath there. If it was a genuine "no," she probably couldn't even physically have adjusted to it enough to see it as anything but a horrible, painful experience. There's nothing romantic about that.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:02 PM   #64
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Yeah, I could buy into it better being termed a "ravishment fantasy." Even better than "surrender of control" fantasy, because in both real life and in written stories for me, in a sexual act as you describe, I see the control being more with the receiver than the pitcher: "You are so out of control in wanting me that you can't help taking me by force. So the control really is with me and my effect on you."
Yes, that was at the heart of it, I think. And I've read that about these fantasies in other places. It's the woman that is in control -- the man wants her because he wants her, because he can't do without her, that kind of thing. The man is so driven because of something about that woman, and the woman finds that desire attractive and exciting.

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Now that I get - but then there's almost a romantic element to it. I can think of certainly one woman I've spoken to that got off on the fantasy of being truly forced against her will though. For me that is rape however you want to square the circle. So how & where does that fit in ?
I don't know. I have never had that kind of fantasy myself. I see nothing exciting in being forced to do something you absolutely don't want to do.

ETA: I have to agree with sr71 on this one. I think there is probably some other element underlying this woman's fantasy.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:17 PM   #65
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Yes, that was at the heart of it, I think. And I've read that about these fantasies in other places. It's the woman that is in control -- the man wants her because he wants her, because he can't do without her, that kind of thing. The man is so driven because of something about that woman, and the woman finds that desire attractive and exciting.



I don't know. I have never had that kind of fantasy myself. I see nothing exciting in being forced to do something you absolutely don't want to do.

ETA: I have to agree with sr71 on this one. I think there is probably some other element underlying this woman's fantasy.
Well, unfortunately, I didn't qualify her meaning so I'm not sure either.
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Old 11-05-2012, 11:14 PM   #66
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I wonder how the presentation is going to go based on the responses:

"Before we get into our predetermined result -- how erotic authors are closet rapists and pedophiles, I'd like share with you . . ."
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Old 11-06-2012, 12:58 AM   #67
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FWIW, I'm not looking to get anybody in trouble. I don't think the OP came here looking for a fight, more likely they just didn't think things through well enough.

Grad students slip up sometimes, it's part of the learning process, and often a quiet word from a supervisor is all that's required. I used to work with a professor who enjoyed ripping into his grad students, and it's not something I'd wish on ANYBODY. Grad school is scary enough without that.
I didn't think you were trying to get anyone in trouble. This student just needs a gentle reminder.

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I read an essay on this type of thing, rape fantasy, and I thought it was on Lit but I couldn't find it when I searched. Rats.

Anyway, the author talked about rape fantasies and how common they are, etc., but thought they were more properly called "ravishment fantasies."

Rape, as many people have noted here, is not about eroticism or even really sex. It's about power, control and domination. It is not about equal participation or mutual satisfaction or anything else.

As I recall from the essay, and I hope I'm not mis-phrasing anything, the idea of a ravishment fantasy is that the woman is so desired by the man -- for her beauty, for her personality, for both, etc. -- that he goes after her. Then he dominates, or whatever, but it is something the woman wants. Now, it could also be about a woman (or man) having an inhibition and wanting to get over it, I imagine; it could be about a lot of things. But since reading that essay, I've thought that "ravishment fantasy" is a good way to describe at least a certain type of fantasy that has rape-type elements but isn't about rape.
In one of the many anthologies I have upstairs, there is an excellent short story that deals with the difference between ravishment and rape. The narrator wonders if there is a difference if she is thinking she's about to be ravished and the man is after rape. "Is rape ravishment defiled?" is a line that sticks out in my mind.

It was a good story.
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:28 AM   #68
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1) What is the motivation for your writing/reading? It is just the genre you prefer? Practice? Well you can practice without writing about incest or rape right?
sexResearcher seems to have pissed off, LOL. Pity he can't delete the responses, eh?

In case he checks here again, let me ask him something:
  • Can you write about murder without being a murderer?
  • Can you write about crime without being a criminal?
  • Can you write about kidnapping without being a kidnapper?

It's just stupid ... the whole thing.

If you write you write about fictional things. You write stories. They didn't actually happen. You don't wish they would, unless it involves a happy, non-violent ending.

@OP: grow up.
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Old 11-06-2012, 06:29 AM   #69
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Wow reading this whole thread has certainly been enlightening. I write in the NC genre, none of my stories though contain a rape theme more the reluctance side of things and over coming obstacles like the general worlds views on what is right and what is wrong.

personally I agree with:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sun_sea_sky View Post
sexResearcher seems to have pissed off, LOL. Pity he can't delete the responses, eh?

In case he checks here again, let me ask him something:
  • Can you write about murder without being a murderer?
  • Can you write about crime without being a criminal?
  • Can you write about kidnapping without being a kidnapper?



@OP: grow up.

I would just like to add, the one thing i understand from everybody that responded is that they write because they enjoy it! For me that's should be the crux of any discussion about erotica writers.
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Old 11-06-2012, 11:56 AM   #70
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Added:

Some of my stories describe encounters and sex scenes that are physically impossible.

Some of my stories are set in fantasy worlds.

The OP should understand that there is a real difference between fiction and reality.

Although in some parts of the world the concept of fiction is unknown, a student at a US university ought to be well aware of the difference between fiction and reality.

Writers of TV soaps do not expect us to believe that what we are seeing is reality even if some fans cannot distinguish between the actors and their roles.

Writers of fiction are producing a construct. Their skill is in persuading the reader to suspend disbelief, but not to advocate performing what the characters do.
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Old 11-06-2012, 01:34 PM   #71
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Added:

Some of my stories describe encounters and sex scenes that are physically impossible.

Some of my stories are set in fantasy worlds.

The OP should understand that there is a real difference between fiction and reality.

Although in some parts of the world the concept of fiction is unknown, a student at a US university ought to be well aware of the difference between fiction and reality.

Writers of TV soaps do not expect us to believe that what we are seeing is reality even if some fans cannot distinguish between the actors and their roles.

Writers of fiction are producing a construct. Their skill is in persuading the reader to suspend disbelief, but not to advocate performing what the characters do.
That leads on to a whole different, no less interesting, debate about the susceptibility of readers/voyeurs to powerful, emotive media.

If one suspends disbelief often enough could fiction become reality for those susceptible?
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:32 PM   #72
Harry Leg
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Originally Posted by xelliebabex View Post
Wow reading this whole thread has certainly been enlightening. I write in the NC genre, none of my stories though contain a rape theme more the reluctance side of things and over coming obstacles like the general worlds views on what is right and what is wrong.

personally I agree with:




I would just like to add, the one thing i understand from everybody that responded is that they write because they enjoy it! For me that's should be the crux of any discussion about erotica writers.
I dont know that I enjoy writing. It just hurts more not to.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:34 PM   #73
MSTarot
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Originally Posted by Dream_Operator View Post
erotic authors are closet rapists and pedophiles,
I'll have you know I've never raped a closet! Let alone an underage one!
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:35 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by MSTarot View Post
I'll have you know I've never raped a closet! Let alone an underage one!
Well, you haven't experienced the height of ecstasy then.
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:38 PM   #75
oggbashan
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Originally Posted by Exquisition View Post
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If one suspends disbelief often enough could fiction become reality for those susceptible?
Unfortunately, fans of soap operas prove this daily. The actors and the action are more real to them than their own lives.
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