Old 09-28-2012, 05:52 PM   #1
twelveoone
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Sonics

an answer to an email, that i can't return, no address

Sonics may have been a bad choice of words, it's almost the same as saying poetical.
I used it to refer to some one knowing the use of sound, without isolating out the specifics. All of the poetical tools would encompass sonics (even enjambment and ambiguity, the would be effect almost imperceptible), the level goes all the way down to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhonemePhoneme.
The object is to use sound to modify meaning.
one example
turnt burnt
turned burned
turned a burned
turned a burnt < this is the most "correct"
all of these technically mean the same, but the sound shift should create a different overall meaning.
now the insertion of the article "a" would make it sound more musical.
The reason I used the first choice is because it is the most dissonant therefore most suitable for the needs of the poem, and hopefully, also as a voicing cue.

If you look at some of chipbuddy's comments, she seems to be very acute to this effect.

My guess is beginning poets use words that sound pretty "murmur", better ones "the musically of verse" subconsciously, I think some of the best are conscious of it, but unless they admit it, you'll never know.
I don't know anybody that uses dissonance as much as I do. I do suspect greenmountaineer does use it consciously.
How about it GM?

Any body else want fess up to the use sound to modify meaning?
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:09 PM   #2
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Different speech sounds representing the same phoneme are known as allophones, such variation may be conditioned, in which case a certain phoneme is realized as a certain allophone in particular phonological environments,
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Old 09-28-2012, 07:18 PM   #3
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The reason I used the first choice is because it is the most dissonant therefore most suitable for the needs of the poem, and hopefully, also as a voicing cue.
i like how you prioritise the need of the poem as paramount. a poem's 'voice' needs to be true to itself to work (in my mind, anyway), and comes before our individual voices as writers. unless that just means i'm not developed enough yet as a poeteer for my own voice to be hitting the reader every time.

your example worked perfectly as a 'voicing cue', no hammers required.
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Old 09-28-2012, 08:41 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
an answer to an email, that i can't return, no address

Sonics may have been a bad choice of words, it's almost the same as saying poetical.
I used it to refer to some one knowing the use of sound, without isolating out the specifics. All of the poetical tools would encompass sonics (even enjambment and ambiguity, the would be effect almost imperceptible), the level goes all the way down to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhonemePhoneme.
The object is to use sound to modify meaning.
one example
turnt burnt
turned burned
turned a burned
turned a burnt < this is the most "correct"
all of these technically mean the same, but the sound shift should create a different overall meaning.
now the insertion of the article "a" would make it sound more musical.
The reason I used the first choice is because it is the most dissonant therefore most suitable for the needs of the poem, and hopefully, also as a voicing cue.

If you look at some of chipbuddy's comments, she seems to be very acute to this effect.

My guess is beginning poets use words that sound pretty "murmur", better ones "the musically of verse" subconsciously, I think some of the best are conscious of it, but unless they admit it, you'll never know.
I don't know anybody that uses dissonance as much as I do. I do suspect greenmountaineer does use it consciously.
How about it GM?

Any body else want fess up to the use sound to modify meaning?

I try to, yes, particularly in the choice of hard or soft consonants with respect to dissonance. For what it's worth (maybe not much, for it was a while ago, at least in Lit years) that's what I had in mind with "A Road is a Road is a Road.". In this case, the dissonance of the guttural profanity culminating at the end was intended to suggest(at least in my mind) someone whose intellectual arrogance cost him dearly.

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Old 09-29-2012, 10:42 AM   #5
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I try to, yes, particularly in the choice of hard or soft consonants with respect to dissonance. For what it's worth (maybe not much, for it was a while ago, at least in Lit years) that's what I had in mind with "A Road is a Road is a Road.". In this case, the dissonance of the guttural profanity culminating at the end was intended to suggest(at least in my mind) someone whose intellectual arrogance cost him dearly.
But the goddam road rose up on me.
What the hell was I thinking? Shit!
I don't know. I don't fucking know!
I didn't see the sonofabitch!

well that stuck out! that was a fucking contrast
good one, to see its effect in context, go read the poem, leave a comment esp if you learned something.
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Old 09-29-2012, 11:46 AM   #6
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ok, harry the thought occurred to me, maybe that wasn't what you where referring too, here is another example of my use of a non specific term:
from Koba
The first thing I noticed was that the eight foot wall on which I sat was thirty feet high. I watched a chameleon walk slowly under my ladder. The grass below was a different shade of green than any I had ever seen before. Charismatic flowers appeared. Looking down, I was struck by an intense fascination with the simplicity of the working class clothesline in my yard, a device that had always spelled failure to me. For the first time in my life, I heard the sound of silent breezes purring through the leaves of the ancient oak tree which had shaded my childhood. I giggled as I felt fear and anger flying off with a one way ticket south.

chameleon walk slowly
Charismatic flowers
class clothesline

this sets up a dynamic for me, there no other way for me to describe it but sonics, i think it could have been tighter, and would have been more apparent if it was closer.
now note in some languages there is no difference between the L and the R, the sound is close, the sound is also close for ch and cl.
This pattern was assigned by me the reader consciously, it would be picked up by both the writer and most readers unconsciously

here it is uninterlocked (ch, ch, cl, cl) (cha, cha, cla - the vowel sound may be different, but close) (slo, fl x, clo) here is where i know it wasn't deliberate on the writers part, the non long o, all of this is also framed by the lines with the L's.
Most writing is done on an unconscious level, but this one of the things a better writer does more of than some one that is new.
Now, if he wanted to call attention to these parts, it worked.
Now, I know I've been accused of pseudo intellectual crap (tripe) before, most recently by Koba himself, but these things exist, it is one of the theories behind abstract painting.
All good writers interlock (or weave), I'm one of the few that pulls them apart.

ok harry, where did I use this term, that prompted the question?
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Old 09-29-2012, 04:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post

chameleon walk slowly
Charismatic flowers
class clothesline

this sets up a dynamic for me, there no other way for me to describe it but sonics, i think it could have been tighter, and would have been more apparent if it was closer.
now note in some languages there is no difference between the L and the R, the sound is close, the sound is also close for ch and cl.
This pattern was assigned by me the reader consciously, it would be picked up by both the writer and most readers unconsciously

here it is uninterlocked (ch, ch, cl, cl) (cha, cha, cla - the vowel sound may be different, but close) (slo, fl x, clo) here is where i know it wasn't deliberate on the writers part, the non long o, all of this is also framed by the lines with the L's .... but these things exist, it is one of the theories behind abstract painting.
All good writers interlock (or weave)
i believe this crosses the barriers between sound/paint/music, and is what makes various pieces (in any medium) work for some recipients even if they cannot put into language quite why.
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Old 09-30-2012, 03:35 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone
..
ok harry, where did I use this term, that prompted the question?
..
Damned days seperate sonics birth
from former memories fleeting sight
searching served illuminating light
finally finding kindly kite
as for a reason, rhyme or season ...who can say?
knowledge knows no geometry when questions come to play
..
Much to ponder and to 'Bing'
Thank you so much for you kind instruction Sensi
..
Harry

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Old 09-30-2012, 03:50 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by HarryHill View Post
twelveoone
kinder than the anon
..
ok harry, where did I use this term, that prompted the question?
..
Damned days seperate sonics birth
from former memories fleeting sight
searching served illuminating light
finally finding kindly kite
as for a reason, rhyme or season ...who can say?
knowledge knows no geometry when questions come to play
..
Much to ponder and to 'Bing'
Thank you so much for you kind instruction Sensi
..
Harry
sensi was another thread, another person
I'm just a cheap trickster, that knows, perhaps one or two more.
where did i use this term that prompted the question?
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Old 09-30-2012, 03:55 PM   #10
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I do not remember (as I explained in the first two lines of my dogerel) ...perhaps in one of the poetry threads...
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Old 09-30-2012, 04:02 PM   #11
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while I have your attention ...a request??
..
A discusion ...editors forum ..far removed from poetry "Chosen Mate seeks editor for chapter 6" Innovation in prose ... the use of the em dash to indicate communication between minds.
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Old 09-30-2012, 04:30 PM   #12
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while I have your attention ...a request??
..
A discusion ...editors forum ..far removed from poetry "Chosen Mate seeks editor for chapter 6" Innovation in prose ... the use of the em dash to indicate communication between minds.
whatever you do, do it at least twice, otherwise people will perceive it as merely a mistake or lapse. three times, people see what you are doing, they may not accept it, but if they like the rest, they might overlook their initial rejection of it.
But that is the operative, they have to like the rest. If they love the rest, they might think you're a genius for doing it. The trick is to consider the audience, never pander, but never let them get ahead of you.
As far as editing and prose, i have enuff trouble writing what little "poetry" i do, and massive missives about some of the neat little tricks some of the poets come up with that they don't even realize what they did.
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Old 09-30-2012, 04:34 PM   #13
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found you usage of 'sonics' in your comment of 'Bucket List'...One of PandoraGlitters poems
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Old 09-30-2012, 04:58 PM   #14
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found you usage of 'sonics' in your comment of 'Bucket List'...One of PandoraGlitters poems
Alphabetical order and apathy
made the A's most popular on the list
for even the amorous reader
never made it as far as R,

starts with a, weak p, o's
what she is really setting you up for is the r

I didn't look at who wrote it, but when i saw the escalation to r, i knew it wasn't a new writer, had to have been a practiced poet. They get like guitar players, riffin'. After that i didn't like the song, too country. Drank my beer and left.
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Old 09-30-2012, 05:11 PM   #15
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that is the shit poets do, not this fancy eloquence of our language.
I saw Angeline make a bird pop out of a painting once. Jesus christ! Where the hell did that come from. Anyway never forgot it. Pay attention to the long vowels.
Rhyme and Metre with nothin' in it go read read Swinburne.
Enuff of this poetry crap for now, I'm goin go read some Swinburne and go to bed.
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:09 PM   #16
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Different speech sounds representing the same phoneme are known as allophones, such variation may be conditioned, in which case a certain phoneme is realized as a certain allophone in particular phonological environments,
Quote:
Originally Posted by chipbutty View Post
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well damnit, i am so disappointed in you all - i thought that was funny!
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:58 AM   #17
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well damnit, i am so disappointed in you all - i thought that was funny!
old eeg joke

i thought my, "MFA, no i'm an outlaw biker dude..." was funny

chip these are poets here, Ogden Nash presses the limit
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Old 10-08-2012, 01:01 AM   #18
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Its like you read my mind! You appear to know so much about this, like you wrote the book in it or something. I think that you could do with some pics to drive the message home a little bit, but other than that, this is great blog. A great read. I will certainly be back.

Nike NFL Jerseys
do you have any Man United?
come back I'll sell you the book
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Old 09-03-2013, 11:13 AM   #19
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Old 02-18-2014, 11:11 PM   #20
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Ba Ba Ba bump
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