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Old 10-16-2012, 06:28 PM   #1
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Fact or Fiction?

I'm reading a novel : I quote :

" She is the sort of sub which some would take a shine to and would want to break. "
"Break?"
" Her spirit. She's strong , but noone is immune to certain pressures. She is relaxed about the way she used her body and allows it to be used, so the alphas will go straight for her mind. Thats where they will try and bend her to their will . And once broken, you can never put the pieces back togeather."

Truth within fiction? or not possible to influence someone, so deeply, that its stays with them forever?
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Old 10-16-2012, 06:51 PM   #2
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sure, just ask ownedsubgal.

And a friend of mine, of whom her Master said, in a highly defensive (read "loud and abrasive") manner; "It takes six years to train a slave the way you want her!"

Since what he wants, evidently, goes far beyond the confines of their relationship and impacts other people's lives and friendships- I'm thinking yeah.
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Old 10-16-2012, 07:36 PM   #3
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it is the nature of trauma that post trauma is post trauma forever, both physical and mental/ emotional... but NEVER put the pieces back together? It sounds like they're talking about mental/ emotional dolcetery.

(i don't know i thats the right term)

... cannibalism.

in anycase; as long as you leave someone physically whole, sure they can, at least in theory, move on with their lives in one way or another. People who do so after/ under extreme adversity are either called survivors or heroes. People who lack the fortitude & determination; victims. Either way implies something about the perpetrators of that trauma.

Part of SSC, which at least used to be holy writ around here, is that a good dominant knows not to break their toys, if for no other reason than you don't get to play with them anymore. People should not be treated as disposable.
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:54 PM   #4
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Fiction

A sub's will and/or spirit is broken in, like a wild filly. If "broken" is used to mean is and will remain in pieces, I don't know if anyone would knowingly sign up for that.

If that is the "doms" intention, then he should have his thumbs broken and stuck up his ass.
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:29 PM   #5
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Quote:
Part of SSC, which at least used to be holy writ around here, is that a good dominant knows not to break their toys, if for no other reason than you don't get to play with them anymore. People should not be treated as disposable.
It still is, really, but people need to know that being dominant and being a good person are, as bramblethorn put it-- orthogonal.
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Old 10-16-2012, 09:46 PM   #6
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Sure, but it's really not that exciting to pervs, it's more "good cop" interrogation tactic stuff, which works MUCH more effectively than torture, gaining trust, rearranging realities, and different people will be more or less receptive. If she's that "spirited" it might not really work at all, sometimes it has to be constantly reinforced to stay effective. The grunt work of remaking someone's reality is not story of O stuff, but skinner-esque and unless you find catatonic hot, you want to lay off the trauma.
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:48 PM   #7
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So could it be done covertly? The sub responds to her Dom, he reinforces messages and instructions which become ingrained in her phyche? She dosent realise how conditioned she is until she moves on and then she struggels to change her behaviour.
Not really breaking her , more brainwashing her? So that negative thoughts and feelings are triggered by certain words or phrases?
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:49 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by kimuk View Post
So could it be done covertly? The sub responds to her Dom, he reinforces messages and instructions which become ingrained in her phyche? She dosent realise how conditioned she is until she moves on and then she struggels to change her behaviour.
Not really breaking her , more brainwashing her? So that negative thoughts and feelings are triggered by certain words or phrases?
The debate rages. On some people I believe that it could be done covertly, but in ways limited in scope and you'll do a LOT better reinforcing what you DO want.

Look to non-con ugly reality. Read ex scientologists, abuse survivors, also political prisoner narratives for hints of what does NOT work, political prisoners tend to stay resistant, because insufficient identification with the captors is the norm - I tend to believe that stockholm syndrome HAS to occur for realities to be considered changed. People move toward desired outcomes, not just away from negatives.
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:54 PM   #9
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I'm thinking more of he wants a certain type of behaviour. If she gets it right she gets praise , affection , reward. If she gets it wrong she gets crtitisim , is ignored, degraded , made to feel bad about herself and that she has failed.
Conditioned response?
Carrott and stick?
Abuse?
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimuk View Post
I'm thinking more of he wants a certain type of behaviour. If she gets it right she gets praise , affection , reward. If she gets it wrong she gets crtitisim , is ignored, degraded , made to feel bad about herself and that she has failed.
Conditioned response?
Carrott and stick?
Abuse?
Yes. Yes. Maybe.
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Old 10-17-2012, 04:57 PM   #11
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I'll repeat my point that I think got lost, and this says it more succinctly:

Your black ops Dom has to convince your sub that - something about their familiar reality isn't so great and LOOK here's a better alternative.

If the sub doesn't feel like they SHOULD be degraded/punished etc. then the whole thing will fail. If they buy in that it's better to do behavior X and they are better off for it, then it may work. So establishing that buy in is very important.

If I'm failing to do something and I get beaten for it, but I believe that this thing is utterly stupid or evil or pointless, I'm going to buck up on that beating, and so will a lot of people. I may wind up doing it but sabotage it. Enough of this with a sub who hasn't bought in, and you may wind up sans balls.

If I'm certain that the person doing the asking is a paragon of perfection and this the greatest thing ever asked anyone, I'm going to ask "how high?"
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netzach View Post
If I'm certain that the person doing the asking is a paragon of perfection and this the greatest thing ever asked anyone, I'm going to ask "how high?"
You made a good point, & I'm not sure why, but this part made me chuckle.
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Old 10-17-2012, 05:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netzach View Post
I'll repeat my point that I think got lost, and this says it more succinctly:

Your black ops Dom has to convince your sub that - something about their familiar reality isn't so great and LOOK here's a better alternative.

If the sub doesn't feel like they SHOULD be degraded/punished etc. then the whole thing will fail. If they buy in that it's better to do behavior X and they are better off for it, then it may work. So establishing that buy in is very important.

If I'm failing to do something and I get beaten for it, but I believe that this thing is utterly stupid or evil or pointless, I'm going to buck up on that beating, and so will a lot of people. I may wind up doing it but sabotage it. Enough of this with a sub who hasn't bought in, and you may wind up sans balls.

If I'm certain that the person doing the asking is a paragon of perfection and this the greatest thing ever asked anyone, I'm going to ask "how high?"
yes I understand.
But what if the "sub " had little experiance? If she assumed that this is how a "Dom" behaves? If she has not done her own research or did not understand the options or choices? If she just acepted it as the "norm".
Does this make him a "bad Dom" or just her a "nieve sub"?

If I'm certain that the person doing the asking is a paragon of perfection and this the greatest thing ever asked anyone, I'm going to ask "how high?"

She may not be certain but she follows his lead? Because she dosent know any better as its her first exploration.
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimuk View Post
yes I understand.
But what if the "sub " had little experiance? If she assumed that this is how a "Dom" behaves? If she has not done her own research or did not understand the options or choices? If she just acepted it as the "norm".
Does this make him a "bad Dom" or just her a "nieve sub"?

If I'm certain that the person doing the asking is a paragon of perfection and this the greatest thing ever asked anyone, I'm going to ask "how high?"

She may not be certain but she follows his lead? Because she dosent know any better as its her first exploration.
Sounds like she might need to have a long conversation with this Dom. He may not have realized that she's only going along and hasn't fully bought in to the changes he wants her to make. If she's not sure that these are "right" ... she and he need to talk.

It takes time and trust to get to the point where to quote Netzach.. "If I'm certain..."
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Old 10-17-2012, 06:23 PM   #15
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Sounds like she might need to have a long conversation with this Dom. He may not have realized that she's only going along and hasn't fully bought in to the changes he wants her to make. If she's not sure that these are "right" ... she and he need to talk.

It takes time and trust to get to the point where to quote Netzach.. "If I'm certain..."
What if there is no dialoge? What if its "do it because its what I want" and if she dosent or cant then there is retribution?
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Old 10-17-2012, 08:34 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimuk View Post
So could it be done covertly? The sub responds to her Dom, he reinforces messages and instructions which become ingrained in her phyche? She dosent realise how conditioned she is until she moves on and then she struggels to change her behaviour.
Not really breaking her , more brainwashing her? So that negative thoughts and feelings are triggered by certain words or phrases?
There are sub rescue societies around and about-- because yeah.
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Old 10-17-2012, 11:07 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimuk View Post
So could it be done covertly? The sub responds to her Dom, he reinforces messages and instructions which become ingrained in her phyche? She dosent realise how conditioned she is until she moves on and then she struggels to change her behaviour.
Not really breaking her , more brainwashing her? So that negative thoughts and feelings are triggered by certain words or phrases?
Absolutely it can be done covertly. It's called manipulation, and manipulation (as most things) may be good or bad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimuk View Post
I'm thinking more of he wants a certain type of behaviour. If she gets it right she gets praise , affection , reward. If she gets it wrong she gets crtitisim , is ignored, degraded , made to feel bad about herself and that she has failed.
Conditioned response?
Carrott and stick?
Abuse?
I had some one do almost exactly this, and he tried to teach me to do it, in fact.

I wasn't completely new, but still very young in the world, in age, and in BDSM. Jounar was the only relationship I really knew, and we hadn't met face to face yet, and other than him, I only knew anythhing from friends. These friends of mine were all into Gor and the lifestyle with it. They owned slaves, and this being the only dynamic I knew, I thought that's what I wanted. This guy, I call him Master Asshole (though I think that might be a little unfair) used that.

What he wanted from me was simple. He wanted some one he could beat black and blue who woulldn't complain, some one who would blow him at will, an extra source of income, and some one who could build and manage a harem. Me being service oriented, and an attention whore, he set tasks for me, and said he would not fuck me until I earned it. And I bought it.

I found other girls to play with us. He taught me how to use their kinks to get them interested. I had my first girl experiences because he wanted me to, and I wanted the reward of being a good slave, and earning the privilage of being fucked by him.

I worked hard, even (tried to) lie to people to get them wanting to be apart of this. I was convinced this was the way M/s worked. But the tasks kept getting harder, and I was no closer to earning that fucking he kept waving in my face.

One day I finally asked to speak what was on my mind, was granted permission, and told him I felt like I was never going to earn that reward no matter what I did, because so far I had managed to complete every task, but had yet to get anything he had promised. So he did the only thing he could have in order to keep me where he had me mentally. He fucked my ass, only a bit, but he did it. Then he told me how I hadn't earned it, and that I was lucky to have gotten what little I did. And I bought into every word.

I probably would have kept on with this if I hadn't met Mr. and Mrs. Here was a couple who didn't want me to prove myself before playing with them. They wanted to be with me, and around me, just because I'm me. And that was the point when Master A's hold over me shattered. I realized that I was worth fucking, I was worth receiving attention, and I didn't have to prove my worth to anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Netzach View Post
I'll repeat my point that I think got lost, and this says it more succinctly:

Your black ops Dom has to convince your sub that - something about their familiar reality isn't so great and LOOK here's a better alternative.

If the sub doesn't feel like they SHOULD be degraded/punished etc. then the whole thing will fail. If they buy in that it's better to do behavior X and they are better off for it, then it may work. So establishing that buy in is very important.

If I'm failing to do something and I get beaten for it, but I believe that this thing is utterly stupid or evil or pointless, I'm going to buck up on that beating, and so will a lot of people. I may wind up doing it but sabotage it. Enough of this with a sub who hasn't bought in, and you may wind up sans balls.

If I'm certain that the person doing the asking is a paragon of perfection and this the greatest thing ever asked anyone, I'm going to ask "how high?"
Yup, exactly

Quote:
Originally Posted by kimuk View Post
yes I understand.
But what if the "sub " had little experiance? If she assumed that this is how a "Dom" behaves? If she has not done her own research or did not understand the options or choices? If she just acepted it as the "norm".
Does this make him a "bad Dom" or just her a "nieve sub"?

If I'm certain that the person doing the asking is a paragon of perfection and this the greatest thing ever asked anyone, I'm going to ask "how high?"

She may not be certain but she follows his lead? Because she dosent know any better as its her first exploration.
"Bad" is relative. The person I described above was bad for me. But there are people out there that would fit him. All of the research in the world would not have stopped me from being sucked in. He was very good at what he did. He let me give him all the fuel he needed. And I accepted it, not because it was the norm, but because I thought it was what I wanted. I kept on because I believed that I wasn't worth any better, because slaves are only worth what some one is willing to give for them. I believed everything he told me, because I believed it before he told me. I believed that was the way it should work, and that's why it did for so long.

I still have flash backs, though not as many, and it's been 5-6 years. I still have moment when I feel like I'm nothing but a slave, and that I don't deserve to be happy (both quite rare now but it does pop up).

Had I not believed those things, on some level, in the beginning, it would not have worked. But I'm far from being able to "recover"
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:30 AM   #18
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I tend to believe that stockholm syndrome HAS to occur for realities to be considered changed. People move toward desired outcomes, not just away from negatives.
I think so too.
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:30 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by the captians wench View Post
Absolutely it can be done covertly. It's called manipulation, and manipulation (as most things) may be good or bad.



I had some one do almost exactly this, and he tried to teach me to do it, in fact.

I wasn't completely new, but still very young in the world, in age, and in BDSM. Jounar was the only relationship I really knew, and we hadn't met face to face yet, and other than him, I only knew anythhing from friends. These friends of mine were all into Gor and the lifestyle with it. They owned slaves, and this being the only dynamic I knew, I thought that's what I wanted. This guy, I call him Master Asshole (though I think that might be a little unfair) used that.

What he wanted from me was simple. He wanted some one he could beat black and blue who woulldn't complain, some one who would blow him at will, an extra source of income, and some one who could build and manage a harem. Me being service oriented, and an attention whore, he set tasks for me, and said he would not fuck me until I earned it. And I bought it.

I found other girls to play with us. He taught me how to use their kinks to get them interested. I had my first girl experiences because he wanted me to, and I wanted the reward of being a good slave, and earning the privilage of being fucked by him.

I worked hard, even (tried to) lie to people to get them wanting to be apart of this. I was convinced this was the way M/s worked. But the tasks kept getting harder, and I was no closer to earning that fucking he kept waving in my face.

One day I finally asked to speak what was on my mind, was granted permission, and told him I felt like I was never going to earn that reward no matter what I did, because so far I had managed to complete every task, but had yet to get anything he had promised. So he did the only thing he could have in order to keep me where he had me mentally. He fucked my ass, only a bit, but he did it. Then he told me how I hadn't earned it, and that I was lucky to have gotten what little I did. And I bought into every word.

I probably would have kept on with this if I hadn't met Mr. and Mrs. Here was a couple who didn't want me to prove myself before playing with them. They wanted to be with me, and around me, just because I'm me. And that was the point when Master A's hold over me shattered. I realized that I was worth fucking, I was worth receiving attention, and I didn't have to prove my worth to anyone.



Yup, exactly



"Bad" is relative. The person I described above was bad for me. But there are people out there that would fit him. All of the research in the world would not have stopped me from being sucked in. He was very good at what he did. He let me give him all the fuel he needed. And I accepted it, not because it was the norm, but because I thought it was what I wanted. I kept on because I believed that I wasn't worth any better, because slaves are only worth what some one is willing to give for them. I believed everything he told me, because I believed it before he told me. I believed that was the way it should work, and that's why it did for so long.

I still have flash backs, though not as many, and it's been 5-6 years. I still have moment when I feel like I'm nothing but a slave, and that I don't deserve to be happy (both quite rare now but it does pop up).

Had I not believed those things, on some level, in the beginning, it would not have worked. But I'm far from being able to "recover"
And I accepted it, not because it was the norm, but because I thought it was what I wanted. I kept on because I believed that I wasn't worth any better.
Do you think newbie subs know what they want? Do you think they have to live the experiances first before they really know?
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:46 PM   #20
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And I accepted it, not because it was the norm, but because I thought it was what I wanted. I kept on because I believed that I wasn't worth any better.
Do you think newbie subs know what they want? Do you think they have to live the experiances first before they really know?
there is such a thing as instinct, such a thing as a strong, but perhaps subconscious sense of self. as an inexperienced submissive person you may not be able to define or spell out exactly what you want (or more importantly, need). but you certainly can know it when you see it. you know what feels right and natural and what does not. at age 18 i knew i needed to be a slave, not because anyone told me so or the idea seemed romantic, but because unlike every other relationship concept i had ever heard or known something about it just instantly clicked for me. and this i knew while believing at the time that i would never be fortunate enough to actually experience it.
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Old 10-19-2012, 02:56 PM   #21
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there is such a thing as instinct, such a thing as a strong, but perhaps subconscious sense of self. as an inexperienced submissive person you may not be able to define or spell out exactly what you want (or more importantly, need). but you certainly can know it when you see it. you know what feels right and natural and what does not. at age 18 i knew i needed to be a slave, not because anyone told me so or the idea seemed romantic, but because unlike every other relationship concept i had ever heard or known something about it just instantly clicked for me. and this i knew while believing at the time that i would never be fortunate enough to actually experience it.
there is such a thing as instinct

Yes and I see lots here who give advice to subs to "trust their instincts". So Your Dom says do ......................................whatever.
You do it. Your instinct tells you that its not for you. You didnt like it physically , it caused emotional upset, it messed with your head.
But you have formed a "bond" , "relationship " with him. He says .............."but its what I want" try harder. He uses emotional blackmail , physical punishment to "adjust your attitude" . You view yourself as "failed" and the spiral of hoplessness gets deeper?
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:32 PM   #22
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there is such a thing as instinct

Yes and I see lots here who give advice to subs to "trust their instincts". So Your Dom says do ......................................whatever.
You do it. Your instinct tells you that its not for you. You didnt like it physically , it caused emotional upset, it messed with your head.
But you have formed a "bond" , "relationship " with him. He says .............."but its what I want" try harder. He uses emotional blackmail , physical punishment to "adjust your attitude" . You view yourself as "failed" and the spiral of hoplessness gets deeper?
you clearly have a very specific pov you're trying to push and are not open to any others, which makes me wonder why you would start a thread on an open forum.

i stated that there is such a thing as instinct, and a deep inner knowing of what is right and wrong for YOU. i believe you agree, but you are obsessed with the idea of some big bad nasty dominant-type breaking some poor innocent thing anyway. well, that does happen sometimes. people ignore instinct, common sense and everything else for reasons those on the outside may not always comprehend. it's unfortunate but it's life, and if they make it out then hopefully they will have gained the wisdom not to go there again.

but you also have to be aware of the fact that "breaking" is not always a negative. sometimes you need to be broken in order to get to that next level, to that place which will truly be home. it is not so black and white.
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:44 PM   #23
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And I accepted it, not because it was the norm, but because I thought it was what I wanted. I kept on because I believed that I wasn't worth any better.
Do you think newbie subs know what they want? Do you think they have to live the experiances first before they really know?
I would argue does anyone know what they really want before they experience it?
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Old 10-19-2012, 03:54 PM   #24
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Hi wenchie hope your ok?

No i dont think they do?

I think you have to test the waters first.

So..............................therefore does the Dom have a responsibility to ensure she does her homework first? to talk and make sure it "fits" waht she thought she wanted?
Or do subs have to take responsibiltiy for themseleves?
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Old 10-19-2012, 05:54 PM   #25
Netzach
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimuk View Post
Hi wenchie hope your ok?

No i dont think they do?

I think you have to test the waters first.

So..............................therefore does the Dom have a responsibility to ensure she does her homework first? to talk and make sure it "fits" waht she thought she wanted?
Or do subs have to take responsibiltiy for themseleves?
Everyone over the age of 18 who is mentally capable in the eyes of the law has to take responsibility for themselves. If the Dominant *also* does this, chances are lower that something goes splat.
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