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Old 10-14-2012, 03:14 PM   #26
Stella_Omega
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Mostly when I read complaints like the OP's I think what they really mean is that they can't muster the arguments to support their position against someone with better skills, and they resent being challenged. Most of us just want what we want and don't want to have to defend our life choices.

it's pretty fucking tough to find the balance. My empowerment stops at your face-- yours stops at mine.

Yes, individual women have every right in the world to sign themselves over to a male partner. Yes, other individual women have every right in the world to point out how problematic it is for us to see that dynamic paraded on the street.

Everyone has the right-- and I would say, the motherfucking duty-- to question and examine their desires -- and re-question and reexamine. Not to mention, develop a sense of rectitude about how we display that stuff. And there's a terrible bossiness in many of us, based on the terrible feeling that many women don't examine their choices much. It's probably less true now than it was when I was a kid, and I keep reminding myself of that.

One enormous problem with the phrase "feminists say..." is that there is as much varience within feminism as there is within women. back in the day, so few women DID speak up that there was this perception that any woman who did so was a spokesperson for all women. And that notion seems to persist today.

I'll tell you what, OP. When some woman tells you she is a feminist and you are doing a Bad Thing you can tell her right back; "I am a feminist and I disagree with you." And get your arguments in line to support your position.
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Old 10-14-2012, 03:17 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
Mostly when I read complaints like the OP's I think what they really mean is that they can't muster the arguments to support their position against someone with better skills, and they resent being challenged. Most of us just want what we want and don't want to have to defend our life choices.

it's pretty fucking tough to find the balance. My empowerment stops at your face-- yours stops at mine.

Yes, individual women have every right in the world to sign themselves over to a male partner. Yes, other individual women have every right in the world to point out how problematic it is for us to see that dynamic paraded on the street.

Everyone has the right-- and I would say, the motherfucking duty-- to question and examine their desires -- and re-question and reexamine. Not to mention, develop a sense of rectitude about how we display that stuff. And there's a terrible bossiness in many of us, based on the terrible feeling that many women don't examine their choices much. It's probably less true now than it was when I was a kid, and I keep reminding myself of that.

One enormous problem with the phrase "feminists say..." is that there is as much varience within feminism as there is within women. back in the day, so few women DID speak up that there was this perception that any woman who did so was a spokesperson for all women. And that notion seems to persist today.

I'll tell you what, OP. When some woman tells you she is a feminist and you are doing a Bad Thing you can tell her right back; "I am a feminist and I disagree with you." And get your arguments in line to support your position.


Lit should have a "like" button.

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Old 10-14-2012, 03:30 PM   #28
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Old 10-14-2012, 03:42 PM   #29
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I stand by what I said.
That's the spirit!
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Old 10-14-2012, 03:46 PM   #30
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I stand by what I said.
What, that some feminists say some things you don't want them to say?
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Old 10-14-2012, 04:05 PM   #31
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I used to be very uncomfortable around the ranking of oppressions, and then I realized that this was due to my considerable unfair helping of privilege and my butthurt twitching whenever I was confronted with it. Still sometimes happens.

I think that an unwillingness to sometimes "rank oppressions" has led to the hijacking of the dialogue into the kinds of things you read on Jezebel, and while feminism debates Hunger Games there's some value in those uptight disapproving feminist voices being pushed to the margins - they at least are brave enough to define the problem.
Ah. O.k., I see what you mean, yeah. Though I'm not sure I get what you mean by disapproving feminist voices being pushed out. I would say engaging in a debate with disapproving feminists draws the subject into awareness? (Not to mention it can be fun. And it means you need to know what you're talking about.)

Yes, lotsa privilege here, and I agree some things are worse than others. What I mean is that it's not always possible to start at the top of the list. The majority of people have no idea what to do about sex trafficing or whatever ranks really high. Neither do I. So I don't mind a feminist debate about kink - wherever on the list that is - if that is what gets you going. It's been an important thing in accepting my sexuality.

But I'm pretty damn biased here, because it reminds me of the endless debates in the environmental movement, telling you you're Doing It Wrong... when you care about air quality in western cities, you are told to put your efforts into stopping deforestation in the Amazon, but then people are angry you focus on trees, while there's people dying in Africa. And when you battle an all encompassing problem like climate change, lo and behold, you're back at 'why don't you first care about what's going on in your own city' again. The list is a circle. *sigh* So, yeah, sorry bout that.
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Old 10-14-2012, 04:13 PM   #32
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A submission in vanilla or kinky sex is a gift that women bestow on any man in the power exchange of sex.

If people argue the case thatheteronormative kink sex is a throwback on feminism then they have to say that any form of heterosexual sex puts women back. Most conventional heterosexual sex involves a submission to men (unless you like wearing a strap-on)...
Notice my added word in there.

But no, a receptive sexuality is not necessarily submission, and penetration is not necessarily dominance. Get those two things separated in your mind, and a lot of things make more sense.

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Originally Posted by LillyRoses View Post
Another point I would like to add is that just as there are women who are submissive in the vanilla world and never "speak up" to their hubbie... so are there the "doormat slaves" in the BDSM world. I don't think kink makes someone submissive. I think that women who are submissive generally in the vanilla sphere stick to their natures and pretty much become slaves in the kink world. Not to put anyone down--I personally would never be an "old world order" doormat slave--it just isn't me.

I am not sure what vanilla people think when they think about BDSM--I am sure there is a lot of misconception out there--there certainly was for me when I entered the world as a feminist. I was afraid that I would "lose my values" becoming a sub--but I couldn't be farther from the truth. Many subs showed me how to set limits and not be taken advantage of. I feel that this is an important aspect of the kink world that many in the vanilla world do not see. Subs are not victims of their sexuality--they are totally in control of what they want to do. Becoming a submissive can be a means of discovering one's sexuality--likes and dislikes that is very in keeping with a feminist credo. Taking control over my pleasure and not letting anyone's judgments interfere with my sexuality is what feminism is all about.

Lilly
Let me point out that the hetero BDSM community has mostly misunderstood "Submissive" to mean "Bottom" and expects people who want to be done unto-- especially women-- to be "submissive."
http://forum.literotica.com/showpost...&postcount=148

Let me further point out that throughout this entire discussion, OP refers to submissives as "she" and dominants as 'he'." And right there is a problem I have with heteronormative sexuality. Some-- male and female both-- may be submissive, some may be dominant-- but NOT because they dwell within a female or male body.
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Yeah, I think we're going to start seeing some very new opinions on this very soon. The whole "he who does the sticking wins" argument is full of holes. ha ha ha ha, that was unintentional.

I have felt majorly objectified by a lot of women in my life. I just.... I don't know man, I don't see it.
And this, from a dude. Thanks, dude.

And this knowledge, this societal attitude, hasn't been universal all of our history. There are tons of early Celtic writings where a woman describes a man and what she would like to do to him.

John Wilmot the second Lord Rochester complained about women who just wanted to use his prick to scratch an itch.
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Old 10-14-2012, 04:34 PM   #33
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Ah. O.k., I see what you mean, yeah. Though I'm not sure I get what you mean by disapproving feminist voices being pushed out. I would say engaging in a debate with disapproving feminists draws the subject into awareness? (Not to mention it can be fun. And it means you need to know what you're talking about.)

Yes, lotsa privilege here, and I agree some things are worse than others. What I mean is that it's not always possible to start at the top of the list. The majority of people have no idea what to do about sex trafficing or whatever ranks really high. Neither do I. So I don't mind a feminist debate about kink - wherever on the list that is - if that is what gets you going. It's been an important thing in accepting my sexuality.

But I'm pretty damn biased here, because it reminds me of the endless debates in the environmental movement, telling you you're Doing It Wrong... when you care about air quality in western cities, you are told to put your efforts into stopping deforestation in the Amazon, but then people are angry you focus on trees, while there's people dying in Africa. And when you battle an all encompassing problem like climate change, lo and behold, you're back at 'why don't you first care about what's going on in your own city' again. The list is a circle. *sigh* So, yeah, sorry bout that.

Totally get it now, yeah, that makes sense.

I just feel like the third wave has bought into the idea that the second wave are hairy harridans who everyone should ignore.
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Old 10-14-2012, 04:40 PM   #34
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Yeesh

You argue with me as if we are on opposite sides of the fence. Because you just generally like to play devil's advocate? You realize that I am a sub woman and I mentioned that it doesn't matter whether you have holes or are gay or straight right?

Thanks,
lilly
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Old 10-14-2012, 04:42 PM   #35
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I mention female subs because throughout history women have been oppressed and there is a fear that BDSM contributes to a backlash towards that..that was the original idea of the thread.

Let's not get sidetracked here. I was mentioning that although women are subs in BDSM it does not mean that they are oppressed and not in control of their sexuality or lives in the vanilla world. Unless of course, you are an old fashioned gal in the vanilla world...then you would be one in the sub world...BDSM does not contribute towards oppression in those cases.
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Old 10-14-2012, 05:14 PM   #36
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Totally get it now, yeah, that makes sense.

I just feel like the third wave has bought into the idea that the second wave are hairy harridans who everyone should ignore.
*nods*

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Originally Posted by LillyRoses View Post
I mention female subs because throughout history women have been oppressed and there is a fear that BDSM contributes to a backlash towards that..that was the original idea of the thread.

Let's not get sidetracked here. I was mentioning that although women are subs in BDSM it does not mean that they are oppressed and not in control of their sexuality or lives in the vanilla world. Unless of course, you are an old fashioned gal in the vanilla world...then you would be one in the sub world...BDSM does not contribute towards oppression in those cases.
Here's a weird fact. What helped me figure out what to do with my desire to sub, as female bodied person, to my male partner, were the conversations I had with him, where it turned out he had as much of a hard time with his desires as I did with mine. Because he didn't support the cultural connotations of straight male dominance. Just like straight women are not necessarily oppressed as subs, straight men aren't necessarily sexist bastards reveling in the power that is handed at them, or whatever.

The fact that there's not just female subs who partner with male Doms, could be an interesting thought experiment for someone who fears that BDSM perpetuates female oppression. Shouldn't one have issues with all kinds of oppression then? Especially of people in minority positions? Yet, in writings of people who oppose BDSM because it's oppressive to women, I haven't encountered any concern about the wellbeing of sub gay men, for example. And there's really enough of those boys out there... But, boys can very well decide for themselves they want to sub. And, hey, so can women.
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Old 10-14-2012, 05:45 PM   #37
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You argue with me as if we are on opposite sides of the fence. Because you just generally like to play devil's advocate? You realize that I am a sub woman and I mentioned that it doesn't matter whether you have holes or are gay or straight right?

Thanks,
lilly
I know you are a sub woman, and I didn't notice you mentioning that gender doesn't matter. I noticed a consistant M/f assumption overall.

If you want to reassure or counter feminist arguments that D/s is heteronormative and has the potential to replay oppression, a good way to do that is to widen the scope of the discussion, and point out that there are many other dynamics within BDSM that have nothing to do with women subbing.

Not only the feminists, but these two gentlemen as well;
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I've often wondered if the most vocal feminists were deeply closeted subs.
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They see you as a potential threat to getting what they want. Your desires are absolutely meaningless to them. You can safely ignore them; but you won't likely be able to make them stop, anymore than they will be able to make you stop.
Which of course, is why many feminists find M/f problematic. Not because it's what some women want, but because men can seize on the idea that it's what ALL women want. Any little thing that preserves privilege.

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Originally Posted by LillyRoses View Post
I mention female subs because throughout history women have been oppressed and there is a fear that BDSM contributes to a backlash towards that..that was the original idea of the thread.
Quite so.

That fear is not about you as an individual, it's about the societal expectations for women, and the way female submission mimics those still-extant expectations. Because it does, it really, really does.
Quote:

Let's not get sidetracked here. I was mentioning that although women are subs in BDSM it does not mean that they are oppressed and not in control of their sexuality or lives in the vanilla world.
Unless of course, you are an old fashioned gal in the vanilla world...then you would be one in the sub world...BDSM does not contribute towards oppression in those cases.
ugh, I'm afraid you just shot yourself in the foot there.
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:55 PM   #38
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I'll tell you what, OP. When some woman tells you she is a feminist and you are doing a Bad Thing you can tell her right back; "I am a feminist and I disagree with you." And get your arguments in line to support your position.
I love this.

When I was a freshman in high school circa 1998 a group of slightly outcast kids got up in an assembly and announced their formation of a new club called, “the feminist alliance.” The whole school laughed, myself included (feminism! That’s so retro and unnecessary, right?).

When I got home I told my mom about this hilarious thing that had happened at school and she asked, “why is that funny?” I found I couldn’t really explain it and finally admitted, “well everybody else was laughing.”

She got very serious and said something along the lines of, “well, if that’s the way you think then other people are going to be able to tell you who you are your whole life. And that right there is exactly the reason feminism is so important.”

Some of the best advice she ever gave me.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:54 AM   #39
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I've often wondered if the most vocal feminists were deeply closeted subs.
this falls under the same attitude as claiming that dominant women are just switches/ subs who haven't found the right dominant man.

What they are "deep in the closet" is none of your damn business. This kind of statement minimizes the very point that they are passionate about, and is precisely why so many feminists are against the very premise of M/f power exchanges.

as per the usual... i'm too damn tired to be trying to argue anything.
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:13 AM   #40
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I've often wondered if the most vocal feminists were deeply closeted subs.
Nope.

They might be completely out and aware of their subness-- some of us are motherfucking dominant. Many outspoken feminists are vanilla.

Mostly what makes a feminist vocal is that she speaks up.
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Old 10-15-2012, 10:03 AM   #41
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To me, the goal of feminism is to make sure all the doors are open to women, and we can enter any door we wish.
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Old 10-15-2012, 05:34 PM   #42
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When I attended a feminist college in the 80's the question of heterosexuality and whether heterosexual women can ever be true feminists (hey, they felt, you give over your sexual will to a man how can you be a true feminist?) was an argument of contention between lesbian and heterosexual feminists. This argument is still going on and can go on and on. Sexual power exchange however, exists among all relationships whether you have a dick or not. That has always been my opinion.
It's not an opinion at all, it is a fact. Power struggles happen in virtually all age groups, among all sexes and sexual orientations. Anyone who tells you otherwise needs to have their head examined in search of a brain.

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So in terms of the phallic argument it is my belief that as long as the partners (with or without a phallus) are attentive to your needs and are not subjugated your pleasure for theirs...then all is good.

And yes, ultimately if it feels good...hmm who cares? At 47 I feel I have earned the right to own my sexuality (without other's judgments)--as long as I am not harming anyone. I stick by SSC Safe Sane Consensual.
The people in power, or in search of power, are often the most outspoken. They use their words to batter down the opposition, much like a slap to the face. The times may have changed, but the people have not. We're much the same as we were thousands of years ago, we've simply addapted to play by different rules. We use our words now, instead of our fists, but the results are much the same. To get to the point; there is a reason that the people in power are not advocating the acceptance of others. Even those few who do are are usually only looking after their own ends. It's all about the power, it's all about getting their way.
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Old 10-15-2012, 05:47 PM   #43
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Careful with the evopsyche arguments, Corwith. It's bad science even at its best-- Most people get nothing more out of it than excuses for behaving like tools.

search out the term "environmental psychology" for a better and more comprehensive system"
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:00 AM   #44
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Princess Amelia. I agree and have posted in my blog as a submissive and feminist that BDSM does not interfere with feminist rights. You can be a sub and a feminist in that you decide as a sub what you desire to do..no one is forcing a sub. I myself am a feminist and a submissive. At first it was difficult for me to understand how I could reconcile both. I will try my best to bring up some important points here.

A submission in vanilla or kinky sex is a gift that women bestow on any man in the power exchange of sex. If people argue the case that kink sex is a throwback on feminism then they have to say that any form of heterosexual sex puts women back. Most conventional heterosexual sex involves a submission to men (unless you like wearing a strap-on).

Most heterosexual sex (kink or otherwise) involves a give and take--a vulnerability and power exchange. As long as you are in control outside of the bedroom--I find nothing wrong with letting go a little and letting the man take the reign in the bedroom--in fact for me it is a relief to know that I can rely on my dom to set up the scenario and take things over for a while. I am very independent in my other life. Perhaps women are saying that they want men to be more attentive in the bedroom--and to pay more interest in their wants and desires. A lot of men seem to enter the sexual arena with a "whatever you like hon" attitude.

Funny you should bring this up as I am currently working on an article post on feminism and submission as I have been seeing a lot up on the net re: a concern about the book 50 Shades' popularity and feminism.

Thanks for bringing up an important topic!

Lilly Rose
Good points lilly Rose, and sadly the extremes of feminism did in fact call heterosexual sex oppression. It wasn't all that many years ago that you had people like Andrea Dworkin running around, famous in her writings for statements like every time a man goes to be with a woman, it is rape (she was arguing in effect that a woman cannot consent to sex, which to me sounds kind of the opposite of what feminism says, that women can make their own decisions). Back in the 80's it got ridiculous, there was a group within feminist/women's circles that almost projected a victorian view of women as dainty beings who if we didn't protect them from the ravages of porn and male sexuality were going to be victims....it was like something out of the 19th century..and it fortunately seems to have been a minority position, a lot of women realized that people like Dworkin were simply extremists who were twisted, they were as bad as the bible thumpers with their view of women as property (let's not discuss the feminists who tried to make porn illegal, attempted to get laws passed on the grounds it hurt women..thankfully we have courts in this country who realized how dangerous those laws were, but in Canada they passed laws like that and women up there were surprised when using those laws even erotica written by and aimed at women was banned, as were sales of certain sex toys and such.......)....we had feminists working with the religious right to control what people could buy or see, and that was scary.....

The one place where feminism could cause a lot of harm was in the law, I know people who actively work with groups like the NCSF when BD/SM and the law intersect, and it isn't just conservatives who cause problems, people have been prosecuted by DA's who were feminist and also who believed that BD/SM was abuse, that in the case of Male/Female S/M where the female was the sub, that the sub was a victim and anything done to her was automatically abuse. In another city the mayor of the town, a self proclaimed feminist women, tried to get a hotel in town to refuse to host a leather convention on the grounds that BD/SM was demeaning to women, abuse, etc.....the hotel chain told her to go to hell fortunately, and attempts by her to get a court order to stop the event were laughed out of court.....

It is a perversion of feminism and fortunately that brand of feminism seems to have died out within the past 20 years or so, the only ones who seem to stick to it are now getting up there in age and few people listen to them.
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:12 AM   #45
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That would be sex-negativism, Lauren.

You know how I talk about how Domination and Topping don't necessarily go together in the same person? Well, feminism and sexual attitude are also two things that are not synonymous.

Problem with "feminism" is that any thinker in a female body will be considered a "feminist."

The male philosophers in our history have never been ghetto'd as "Male philosophers."
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:12 AM   #46
njlauren
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Originally Posted by Allyourbase View Post
*nods*



Here's a weird fact. What helped me figure out what to do with my desire to sub, as female bodied person, to my male partner, were the conversations I had with him, where it turned out he had as much of a hard time with his desires as I did with mine. Because he didn't support the cultural connotations of straight male dominance. Just like straight women are not necessarily oppressed as subs, straight men aren't necessarily sexist bastards reveling in the power that is handed at them, or whatever.

The fact that there's not just female subs who partner with male Doms, could be an interesting thought experiment for someone who fears that BDSM perpetuates female oppression. Shouldn't one have issues with all kinds of oppression then? Especially of people in minority positions? Yet, in writings of people who oppose BDSM because it's oppressive to women, I haven't encountered any concern about the wellbeing of sub gay men, for example. And there's really enough of those boys out there... But, boys can very well decide for themselves they want to sub. And, hey, so can women.
That is the problem with many of those who opposed women as subs in BD/SM, it is because they fundamentally assumed that women couldn't decide they wanted to be sub, they were sub because a man forced them to.....NCSF spent a lot of time talking to NOW and other groups to try and make them understand that BD/SM isn't about men oppressing women (as my good friend Susan said, she got some chuckles when she mentioned there are a lot of female dominant/male sub BD/SM couples in the scene and believe her, the men wouldn't dare oppress their mistress *smile*), but it took a lot of work because a lot of poison had been spread over the years. The whole point is, male or female, people should have the right to make their own decisions about how they play out their sexuality or life, period. I think one of the things a lot of men didn't realize is feminism is not just about the freedom of women to live their lives on equal terms, it is also about freeing men from the burdens that society places on them too, about roles and so forth. Sadly it isn't a perfect world, women still take on a lot more of the burdens around the house and such even though many work full time, but ultimately if the goals of feminism are met, it prob would be easier on men, too,IMO.
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:20 AM   #47
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That would be sex-negativism, Lauren.

You know how I talk about how Domination and Topping don't necessarily go together in the same person? Well, feminism and sexual attitude are also two things that are not synonymous.

Problem with "feminism" is that any thinker in a female body will be considered a "feminist."

The male philosophers in our history have never been ghetto'd as "Male philosophers."
I can't argue, the problem is there was a vocal group calling themselves feminist who were very sex negative and in effect melded the too. It cause a fundamental contradiction, the women's rights movement embraced sexual freedom, yet you had these clowns (and I am sorry, I don't have a better name for them) peddling this nonsense that somehow sex was oppressive or worse, that women didn't have the strength to assent to sex...and yes, it is sex negativism.

It reminds me of a story my therapist, a gay woman, told me. There was a group of gay women at some event of some kind, and someone came up with the idea of a pub crawl. There were some gay motorcycle guys around she knew, and she suggested they could join up with the gay guys and ride with them....one of the women freaked out, and was like "those are men, I was abused by a man, how can you expect me to ride with them' and my therapist looked at her and said "easy, those men weren't the ones who abused you, what did they ever do to you?". The analogy is there, the sex negative crowd because women have been and continue to be abused sexually or forced, assume all such sex is forced, the way that women assumed all men were abusive to women.....
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:38 AM   #48
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Well then, it behoves you to speak up and contradict those people.

As I do. All the time.

It's a very good idea, in conversations like this one, to remind people that not all feminists are anti sex, not all feminists believe that subs are abused women, and that, in fact, you and I are feminists too-- and we can put our voices out there.

You can bemoan 'those people' and thereby give them the authority to speak for you-- or you can speak up on the other side.

Feminism, like so many other things that aren't court mandated, is a do it yourself affair. If you do it for yourself-- you can be part of the change.

And I bet your therapist's wise words made jack shit difference to the woman, because the guys who DID abuse her? They hadn't done anything to her either, until they did.
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Old 10-16-2012, 01:48 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
Well then, it behoves you to speak up and contradict those people.

As I do. All the time.

It's a very good idea, in conversations like this one, to remind people that not all feminists are anti sex, not all feminists believe that subs are abused women, and that, in fact, you and I are feminists too-- and we can put our voices out there.

You can bemoan 'those people' and thereby give them the authority to speak for you-- or you can speak up on the other side.

Feminism, like so many other things that aren't court mandated, is a do it yourself affair. If you do it for yourself-- you can be part of the change.

And I bet your therapist's wise words made jack shit difference to the woman, because the guys who DID abuse her? They hadn't done anything to her either, until they did.

That's exactly it. I don't feel comfortable discounting that woman's experience - it may suck for the individual men she may be writing off and not want to be around, but on another level, oh well.

I'm not down with women who shout shaming things at peep booth johns outside the doors of the bookstores, but I can think of about a million billion higher priority problems, including whatever it is that makes them feel that way.

I'm still not entirely convinced that heterosexual relations aren't inherently problematic. Won't stop me from engaging in them, but still...I'm not feeling so "oh how completely ridiculous!" about it.

I think that it's not black and white at all. Which endears me to neither second nor third wave.
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Last edited by Netzach : 10-16-2012 at 01:51 AM.
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Old 10-16-2012, 05:55 AM   #50
Bramblethorn
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Good points lilly Rose, and sadly the extremes of feminism did in fact call heterosexual sex oppression. It wasn't all that many years ago that you had people like Andrea Dworkin running around, famous in her writings for statements like every time a man goes to be with a woman, it is rape
Are you basing this claim on your own reading of Dworkin's work, or are you relying on second-hand representation by her ideological opponents here?

I'll admit that I've read very little of her writing herself (and I disagree with chunks of what I have read), but to the best of my knowledge she never actually made such a claim. It seems to be something of a straw-man set up by antagonists who wanted to discredit her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrea_Dworkin#Intercourse

http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dwor...Interview.html

Michael Moorcock: After "Right-Wing Women" and "Ice and Fire" you wrote "Intercourse". Another book which helped me clarify confusions about my own sexual relationships. You argue that attitudes to conventional sexual intercourse enshrine and perpetuate sexual inequality. Several reviewers accused you of saying that all intercourse was rape. I haven't found a hint of that anywhere in the book. Is that what you are saying?

Andrea Dworkin: No, I wasn't saying that and I didn't say that, then or ever. There is a long section in Right-Wing Women on intercourse in marriage. My point was that as long as the law allows statutory exemption for a husband from rape charges, no married woman has legal protection from rape. I also argued, based on a reading of our laws, that marriage mandated intercourse--it was compulsory, part of the marriage contract. Under the circumstances, I said, it was impossible to view sexual intercourse in marriage as the free act of a free woman. I said that when we look at sexual liberation and the law, we need to look not only at which sexual acts are forbidden, but which are compelled.
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