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Old 10-13-2012, 09:33 PM   #1
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I've had enough

So many feminists say Bdsm puts women's rights years back but in my opinion I think its not true. Feminists should see being feminists is about making your own choices so if a woman decides to be a sub/slave or pet its their choice. I'm all for female rights but the feminists should see its a woman's right to decide what they do in the bedroom. What does everyone else think ?
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Old 10-13-2012, 09:43 PM   #2
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Thumbs up

I agree but I'm a man and therefore may be biased.
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Old 10-13-2012, 09:54 PM   #3
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Thanks for your feedback
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:01 PM   #4
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If you look at shows like I Dream Of Jeannie, you can see how words like ''master'' can be very disturbing to women who are trying to advance forward in a world that is still largely controlled and run by men. This pop cultural reference feeds into a much larger cultural pattern of men controlling most things, and women left at the wayside, again i could go on, but there are tremendous economic, social, cultural and more inequalities that we are facing. So i don't know exactly what you are sick of --- women fighting for equality?
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:09 PM   #5
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I'm sick of the feminsts who say that a woman sexual desires are being judge and blamed for putting the womens rights fight back hundreds of years it not like when I've been with a dom man I call him sir and did whatever he said in normal life there was a time and place for it and think a womens sex life is hers no one should judge anyone for what they like they should stick to what they do best making work places and communities better for women. They should be getting women and men equal pay if there in the same job doing things like that instead of attacking women who like to be submissive in the bedroom.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:59 PM   #6
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Old 10-14-2012, 12:12 AM   #7
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Very well stated, TxBookGirl!



Quote:
Originally Posted by TxBookGirl View Post
Hello, I thought I would jump into this conversation. I was raised to believe we could do it all. We should be wives, mothers, and have successful careers. Unfortunately, I have discovered, as many of my friends, we can't do it all, or at least well. I don't care how often the media tells us otherwise. Real women in the real world struggle daily to meet all their obligations.

I'm tired, and I know I'm not alone. Equality to me means both men and women take on the responsibilities of running the home and raising the kids, as well as earning equal pay for equal work. Unfortunately, women are working full time jobs and going home to be full time housewives.

If I need to submit in the bedroom as a means to relax and enjoy myself that is my right. If I can't do it all and find I need to submit outside of the bedroom that's fine as well. We are not superwomen. I feel I was cheated when I was told as a young girl I could do it all. I just can't. I know there are women who claim they can do it all. It's just hard for me to believe them. Something has to give. There just is not enough time in the day to do it all. They either have hired help or they're dropping the ball in some area of their lives.

My life is a delicate balance of work and home life. All it takes is one missed or rescheduled appointment to mess things up. What I wouldn't give to have had a husband willing to give as much in the home as I did. I think I could have managed better.

Amelia, your life is too short and you are the only person who can live it. I highly recommend you do what you need to do to get through your day. Don't worry about criticisms by other people. If they are true feminists they will be fighting for your rights and not just their agenda.


BTW- I'm a Latina with a Master's degree working a professional job raising a young daughter. The women of my family (mother and grandmother both hold Master's degrees as well) taught me a woman should always have an independent income from her husband. I have to hire help to make my life work for me. I have a cleaning lady come by once a week and my daughter attends daycare while I work.
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:02 AM   #8
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I've often wondered if the most vocal feminists were deeply closeted subs.
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:08 AM   #9
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I'm a feminist and a perv. I've played on both sides.

I realize that there are a lot of feminists critical of my sex life. That's ok. No one dies if I don't get hugs and approval from everyone.

Women are still fucked over in SO MANY WAYS that my validation isn't that big a deal to me from Feminism.

The crises that women face? Big deal.
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:32 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TxBookGirl View Post
Hello, I thought I would jump into this conversation. I was raised to believe we could do it all. We should be wives, mothers, and have successful careers. Unfortunately, I have discovered, as many of my friends, we can't do it all, or at least well. I don't care how often the media tells us otherwise. Real women in the real world struggle daily to meet all their obligations.

I'm tired, and I know I'm not alone. Equality to me means both men and women take on the responsibilities of running the home and raising the kids, as well as earning equal pay for equal work. Unfortunately, women are working full time jobs and going home to be full time housewives.

If I need to submit in the bedroom as a means to relax and enjoy myself that is my right. If I can't do it all and find I need to submit outside of the bedroom that's fine as well. We are not superwomen. I feel I was cheated when I was told as a young girl I could do it all. I just can't. I know there are women who claim they can do it all. It's just hard for me to believe them. Something has to give. There just is not enough time in the day to do it all. They either have hired help or they're dropping the ball in some area of their lives.

My life is a delicate balance of work and home life. All it takes is one missed or rescheduled appointment to mess things up. What I wouldn't give to have had a husband willing to give as much in the home as I did. I think I could have managed better.

Amelia, your life is too short and you are the only person who can live it. I highly recommend you do what you need to do to get through your day. Don't worry about criticisms by other people. If they are true feminists they will be fighting for your rights and not just their agenda.


BTW- I'm a Latina with a Master's degree working a professional job raising a young daughter. The women of my family (mother and grandmother both hold Master's degrees as well) taught me a woman should always have an independent income from her husband. I have to hire help to make my life work for me. I have a cleaning lady come by once a week and my daughter attends daycare while I work.
Very well stated! I agree with you and princess 100%.
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:46 AM   #11
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Why exactly, do you feel like you need other women, or anyone other than you and your - man, I'm assuming, but I don't like to assume - to think what you're doing when you get it on is cool?

Why do they even know?

I've learned to share my sexual identity with the few people with whom sharing benefits us mututally in some fashion, or when there is no other choice. If it's personal it's personal.

Know what? If I find out that someone is into being controlled in her personal life and it "makes her happy" and yadda ya, it's also my right not to be comfortable with it, to think she's wrong, and to say I disagree. It's my right as a vanilla woman to wonder what the hell is wrong with you if you're constantly deferring to your boyfriend, (or girlfriend) barring any substantial understanding as to why. The whole wide world being down with you is not a human right.

I've found tons of kinky women completely overshare and then are horrified when the reaction isn't hugs and kisses.

It's not like het sub gal can't legally marry her dude, so - seriously...if you want to get bothered about sexual freedom, there is a LONG line.

She shouldn't have to worry about being institutionalized against her will. She shouldn't have to worry about having her kids taken away - THOSE are problems. Not "being validated by feminists" -- but being protected equally.
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Old 10-14-2012, 03:14 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netzach View Post
Why exactly, do you feel like you need other women, or anyone other than you and your - man, I'm assuming, but I don't like to assume - to think what you're doing when you get it on is cool?
This. Exactly.

A lot of people in general are uncomfortable with BDSM. Some of those people are feminists, too. It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with feminism.

And if someone gives me crap in the name of feminism, it clearly just means they have their panties twisted for completely weird reasons. What I do sexually and how my relationship works doesn't make the life of other women any better or worse, any more equal or unequal.
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Old 10-14-2012, 04:51 AM   #13
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I also think that the serious social issues women face trump my need to feel accepted for being kinky in ways that are a bit taboo.

I don't think you you should be made to feel like a traitor to your gender for enjoying being submissive, but that seems like a small issue compared to broad based gender inequality.
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:16 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrincessAmelia View Post
So many feminists say Bdsm puts women's rights years back but in my opinion I think its not true. Feminists should see being feminists is about making your own choices so if a woman decides to be a sub/slave or pet its their choice. I'm all for female rights but the feminists should see its a woman's right to decide what they do in the bedroom. What does everyone else think ?
They see you as a potential threat to getting what they want. Your desires are absolutely meaningless to them. You can safely ignore them; but you won't likely be able to make them stop, anymore than they will be able to make you stop.
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:53 AM   #15
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I like to think of bdsm as a big tent with "left" and "right" wings.

bdsm as a whole provides a place for people who are out of sync with societal norms, but we aren't all out of sync the same way.

On one side you've got people who are pushing the boundaries in avant garde, never-seen-before ways. That's the "left" wing. On the other side you've got people who are retrograde in a way that makes them abnormal to society at large. Many of them have adopted the ways and means of bdsm because only in bdsm terms is it now possible to talk openly of old school male supremacy. (That's not completely true, but I'm always watching for the inevitable merger of "conservative Christianity" and bdsm").
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Old 10-14-2012, 12:50 PM   #16
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I’m not sure if it is actually a matter of “them” and “me.” I identify as both a feminist and submissive. Saying either of these words to certain parties can attract misunderstanding and judgement from all sides but it’s actually as a feminist that I reject the kind of social stigma that says I can't want sex to be something other than "making love" and that giving up control reflects poorly on me as a woman. This may seem contradictory but IMO a feminist is someone who is comfortable with who they are regardless of someone else's dogma.

Personally, I think the few more strident variety (all men are our oppressors) that many mistake to be the definition of feminism can sometimes become so caught up in a kind of perceived preset "truth" that they can on occasion contradict the purpose of the movement, but again, this is their business and I won't tell them how to think.

So regardless if using either charged word consigns me to the designation of vitriolic man eater or cowardly betrayer of my sex in some eyes, that's OK, I know who I am.

Anyway, maybe my rambling point here is that I might like to be told what to do sometimes but I don't need anyone to tell me who I am or what I should like or what a feminist or submissive is or believes. So fuck 'em, do what you want.
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:36 PM   #17
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I would like to respectfully disagree with some of the things posted above. While, as said somewhere above, it's not a right to have the whole wide world being down with someone's kinky life, I do understand the OP's irritation.

I studied women's studies, consider myself a feminist and my blood sometimes boils as well when I encounter feminist anti-bdsm (or generally sex-negative) critiques. When looking at who in this whole wide world has an opinion about bdsm that I care about, these people are some of the few: they're the ones I expect a basic support from, and these people are part of the communities fighting for a sexual equality also kinksters deserve.

Which isn't to say they should agree with my sex life, nor that all bdsm is 'good' or 'feminist'. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and everyone can be icked out by what I do in bed, sometimes with very good reasons. And if I overshare, get a negative reaction... my problem, I totally agree on that. But feminists' support or opposition for bdsm in general can have a larger effect than that, or at least it's supposed to.

Personally, I am not a fan of measuring one sexual minority against the other, trying to determine who's first in line to get recognition or rights or certain kinds of freedom or acceptance, because, really, there's always someone somewhere in a far more distressing situation, for some people it's an argument that results in doing nothing disguised as caring more than thou, and I think all these minority rights are tied in together anyway.

Anyways, these are my personal pet peeves a bit, so, uhm, no offence meant, just adding my two cents-rant to the discussion.

I'm curious as to what PrincessAmelia encountered to start this thread. Was it a real life discussion with someone? An article online?
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:46 PM   #18
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Submissives can be feminists

Princess Amelia. I agree and have posted in my blog as a submissive and feminist that BDSM does not interfere with feminist rights. You can be a sub and a feminist in that you decide as a sub what you desire to do..no one is forcing a sub. I myself am a feminist and a submissive. At first it was difficult for me to understand how I could reconcile both. I will try my best to bring up some important points here.

A submission in vanilla or kinky sex is a gift that women bestow on any man in the power exchange of sex. If people argue the case that kink sex is a throwback on feminism then they have to say that any form of heterosexual sex puts women back. Most conventional heterosexual sex involves a submission to men (unless you like wearing a strap-on).

Most heterosexual sex (kink or otherwise) involves a give and take--a vulnerability and power exchange. As long as you are in control outside of the bedroom--I find nothing wrong with letting go a little and letting the man take the reign in the bedroom--in fact for me it is a relief to know that I can rely on my dom to set up the scenario and take things over for a while. I am very independent in my other life. Perhaps women are saying that they want men to be more attentive in the bedroom--and to pay more interest in their wants and desires. A lot of men seem to enter the sexual arena with a "whatever you like hon" attitude.

Funny you should bring this up as I am currently working on an article post on feminism and submission as I have been seeing a lot up on the net re: a concern about the book 50 Shades' popularity and feminism.

Thanks for bringing up an important topic!

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Old 10-14-2012, 02:51 PM   #19
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I used to be very uncomfortable around the ranking of oppressions, and then I realized that this was due to my considerable unfair helping of privilege and my butthurt twitching whenever I was confronted with it. Still sometimes happens.

I think that an unwillingness to sometimes "rank oppressions" has led to the hijacking of the dialogue into the kinds of things you read on Jezebel, and while feminism debates Hunger Games there's some value in those uptight disapproving feminist voices being pushed to the margins - they at least are brave enough to define the problem.
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Old 10-14-2012, 02:52 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MK156 View Post
I’m not sure if it is actually a matter of “them” and “me.” I identify as both a feminist and submissive. Saying either of these words to certain parties can attract misunderstanding and judgement from all sides but it’s actually as a feminist that I reject the kind of social stigma that says I can't want sex to be something other than "making love" and that giving up control reflects poorly on me as a woman. This may seem contradictory but IMO a feminist is someone who is comfortable with who they are regardless of someone else's dogma.
This. I think a lot of people getting "fed up" are forgetting that without feminism we would not be having this conversation, we would not have this consciousness around our OWN sexualities - men and women alike, actually.
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Old 10-14-2012, 03:02 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by LillyRoses View Post

A submission in vanilla or kinky sex is a gift that women bestow on any man in the power exchange of sex. If people argue the case that kink sex is a throwback on feminism then they have to say that any form of heterosexual sex puts women back.

Maybe it does. And while it's fucked that I enjoy it, it this understanding does not mean that I can change that, or make it un-fucked. Maybe?

Maybe the idea that I can move through life with *awareness* is the issue, not that we mistakenly try to get people to stop having sex or have it miserably with other women or whatever?

I don't believe this, but I'm not decided.

Quote:

Most conventional heterosexual sex involves a submission to men (unless you like wearing a strap-on).
Maybe if you're a sociologist or a submissive woman or a dominant man, but people are very slippery as people. I have NFI what anyone experiences when having sex.

When I was fucking vanilla, I never felt like this. I never felt much of anything in terms of behavioral "read" - it felt like "doing sensuality." It was awesome. Maybe I really *am* a complete freak. Maybe the phallic myth is more nuanced than people give it credit for being.

I'm not saying that anyone can be "post phallic" successfully, or that it's desirable that everyone is, just that maybe the mechanics of heterosexuality are not the issue.

I'm not decided on this one either.
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Old 10-14-2012, 03:06 PM   #22
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This discussion reminds me a bit of how I felt while watching Brokeback Mountain. I saw it opening weekend in one of the gayest cities in America, in an indy theater. You can probably imagine the intensity of gayness the theater was experiencing that night, which was a lot of the reason I wanted to go, I had made a lot of LGBT friends and wanted to feel like part of the cause.

There is a scene in the movie towards the end where an "aged" Jake Gylennhal (sp?) turns around, looking a little ridiculous in his stuffed shirt and painted gray whiskers and says "well then we've got ourselves a bit of a problem then, don't we?" couldn't have sounded any more like an old gay cowboy if he tried, which incidentally, he was trying to do.

Anyway, I chuckled. I got quite a few looks. I was a bit embarrassed and for a moment thought to myself, "damn, chill out guys, wtf."

I still think the scene was a bit funny but I loved the movie and being there meant a lot to me. If I have a gay son I can tell him his dad saw Brokeback Mountain at the Gateway Theater in Fort Lauderdale opening weekend and whoever he wants to bring home for Thanksgiving is cool.
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Old 10-14-2012, 03:06 PM   #23
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Another point

Another point I would like to add is that just as there are women who are submissive in the vanilla world and never "speak up" to their hubbie... so are there the "doormat slaves" in the BDSM world. I don't think kink makes someone submissive. I think that women who are submissive generally in the vanilla sphere stick to their natures and pretty much become slaves in the kink world. Not to put anyone down--I personally would never be an "old world order" doormat slave--it just isn't me.

I am not sure what vanilla people think when they think about BDSM--I am sure there is a lot of misconception out there--there certainly was for me when I entered the world as a feminist. I was afraid that I would "lose my values" becoming a sub--but I couldn't be farther from the truth. Many subs showed me how to set limits and not be taken advantage of. I feel that this is an important aspect of the kink world that many in the vanilla world do not see. Subs are not victims of their sexuality--they are totally in control of what they want to do. Becoming a submissive can be a means of discovering one's sexuality--likes and dislikes that is very in keeping with a feminist credo. Taking control over my pleasure and not letting anyone's judgments interfere with my sexuality is what feminism is all about.

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Old 10-14-2012, 03:10 PM   #24
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Quote:
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Maybe if you're a sociologist or a submissive woman or a dominant man, but people are very slippery as people. I have NFI what anyone experiences when having sex.

When I was fucking vanilla, I never felt like this. I never felt much of anything in terms of behavioral "read" - it felt like "doing sensuality." It was awesome. Maybe I really *am* a complete freak. Maybe the phallic myth is more nuanced than people give it credit for being.

I'm not saying that anyone can be "post phallic" successfully, or that it's desirable that everyone is, just that maybe the mechanics of heterosexuality are not the issue.

I'm not decided on this one either.
Yeah, I think we're going to start seeing some very new opinions on this very soon. The whole "he who does the sticking wins" argument is full of holes. ha ha ha ha, that was unintentional.

I have felt majorly objectified by a lot of women in my life. I just.... I don't know man, I don't see it.
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Old 10-14-2012, 03:12 PM   #25
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Feminism in general

When I attended a feminist college in the 80's the question of heterosexuality and whether heterosexual women can ever be true feminists (hey, they felt, you give over your sexual will to a man how can you be a true feminist?) was an argument of contention between lesbian and heterosexual feminists. This argument is still going on and can go on and on. Sexual power exchange however, exists among all relationships whether you have a dick or not. That has always been my opinion.

So in terms of the phallic argument it is my belief that as long as the partners (with or without a phallus) are attentive to your needs and are not subjugated your pleasure for theirs...then all is good.

And yes, ultimately if it feels good...hmm who cares? At 47 I feel I have earned the right to own my sexuality (without other's judgments)--as long as I am not harming anyone. I stick by SSC Safe Sane Consensual.
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