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Old 02-11-2013, 06:50 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by oggbashan View Post
Where he went wrong was trying to kill Henry by himself. He should have acted like a general and sent others to do it.

He took a calculated gamble to settle the dispute by removing Henry. If he had succeeded the defection of part of his forces would have been irrelevant. Richard would have been the only King or contender for the crown.

But he lost a battle that started with all the odds in his favour. He had superior numbers, a better position on the battlefield and his opponent had tired troops.
I have always had high regard for his decision to try. I felt there was something chivalric in the attempt.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:35 AM   #127
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I have always had high regard for his decision to try. I felt there was something chivalric in the attempt.
That is why he is sometimes described, with admiration, as the last medieval monarch. Later monarchs left fighting battles to professionals.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:47 AM   #128
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That is why he is sometimes described, with admiration, as the last medieval monarch. Later monarchs left fighting battles to professionals.
George II fought at the Battle of Dettingen in 1743.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:53 AM   #129
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That is why he is sometimes described, with admiration, as the last medieval monarch. Later monarchs left fighting battles to professionals.
This notion of chivalry persisted for a long time. The British general Sir Issac Brock died, at age 43, leading his troops into battle against the Americans at the battle of Queenston Heights in October 1812.

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Old 02-12-2013, 07:54 AM   #130
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This notion of chivalry persisted for a long time. The British general Sir Issac Brock died, at age 43, leading his troops into battle against the Americans at the battle of Queenston Heights in October 1812.

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Generals are supposed to die and be accorded honour for doing so, kings not so much.
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Old 02-12-2013, 07:56 AM   #131
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George II fought at the Battle of Dettingen in 1743.
I know. But not like Richard III. He didn't get down and dirty in the middle of the action.

George II's presence is remembered for having his horse run away with him.

And Dettingen? A shambles on both sides with ill-trained troops unable to carry out their generals' orders.

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Old 02-12-2013, 08:05 AM   #132
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Generals are supposed to die and be accorded honour for doing so, kings not so much.
You have a point there.

In this case the battle was very distant from England and higher authority (near Niagara Falls). I have always thought it sad that such a talented and experienced General was wasted in a leadership gesture.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:04 AM   #133
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The descendant's DNA is from Richard's sister.
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They should have checked mine.

According to other researchers on Ancestry, I am legitimately descended from Henry II.

If their 'evidence' is right, so are about 10,000 other living individuals.


My DNA wouldn't have helped. Richard III was a first cousin, sixteen times removed but through the paternal side.

At that remove, there are 65,536 potential ancestors (ignoring marriages between common ancestors [of which there are more than a few]).



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Old 02-12-2013, 11:40 AM   #134
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That is why he is sometimes described, with admiration, as the last medieval monarch. Later monarchs left fighting battles to professionals.
I love the idea that they are professional.
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Old 02-12-2013, 11:56 AM   #135
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I love the idea that they are professional.
Professionals? Dubious in the British Army prior to the 19th Century reforms.

When officers bought their commissions there were some real incompetents e.g. Lord Raglan at the Charge of the Light Brigade.

The Royal Navy officers were professionals, having to pass examinations in seamanship before they could progress.

But Kings weren't necessarily good generals and some were appalling commanders.
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Old 02-12-2013, 03:21 PM   #136
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George II fought at the Battle of Dettingen in 1743.
But did he "fight" as a general, or did he actually fight with weapons in his hands?
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:26 PM   #137
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Professionals? Dubious in the British Army

When officers bought their commissions there were some real incompetents e.g. Lord Raglan at the Charge of the Light Brigade.

The Royal Navy officers were professionals, having to pass examinations in seamanship before they could progress.

But Kings weren't necessarily good generals and some were appalling commanders.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:44 PM   #138
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FYP.
I still think British Generals after mid 19th Century were professionals.

Whether they were competent? A few were. The Boer War showed that many were not, and some still had to learn hard lessons during WW1 and 2.

Gallipoli, Malaya/Singapore and Crete were examples of British professionals getting it wrong.

But I didn't claim anything.
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Old 02-12-2013, 06:45 PM   #139
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But did he "fight" as a general, or did he actually fight with weapons in his hands?
As a general but not the commander of the so-called Pragmatic Army.
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:31 AM   #140
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I still think British Generals after mid 19th Century were professionals.

Whether they were competent? A few were. The Boer War showed that many were not, and some still had to learn hard lessons during WW1 and 2.

Gallipoli, Malaya/Singapore and Crete were examples of British professionals getting it wrong.

But I didn't claim anything.
Maybe I'm just a little jaded by the "Options for Change" leftovers. Mind you, they were trained by those who went before. And I have no knowledge of the RN or RAF so I'm not commenting on them.
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Old 02-13-2013, 07:24 AM   #141
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The Royal Navy officers were professionals, having to pass examinations in seamanship before they could progress.
However, promotion to post captain and above was in the gift of the admiral and it was frequently a matter of not what you knew, but who.
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Old 02-13-2013, 08:05 AM   #142
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However, promotion to post captain and above was in the gift of the admiral and it was frequently a matter of not what you knew, but who.
But you didn't get to post captain without being a competent seaman.

Whether you were a competent ship commander was another question.

Captain (Breadfruit) Bligh was a very skilled and competent seaman. As a leader, he was crap. Not many people know that he had two mutinies in his career, the first well-known one as Captain of HMS Bounty, the second as Governor of New South Wales.

His services to botany are under-recognised but were very significant. His tomb is in the garden of the London Garden Museum just outside Lambeth Palace, and is decorated with breadfruit plants.


Hilaire Belloc's Poem refers to Captain Bligh at the end:

LORD LUNDY

WHO WAS TOO FREELY MOVED TO TEARS, AND THEREBY RUINED HIS POLITICAL CAREER

by: Hilaire Belloc (1870-1953)

Lord Lundy from his earliest years
Was far too freely moved to Tears.
For instance if his Mother said,
“Lundy! It’s time to go to Bed!”
He bellowed like a Little Turk.
Or if his father Lord Dunquerque
Said “Hi!” in a Commanding Tone,
“Hi, Lundy! Leave the Cat alone!”
Lord Lundy, letting go its tail,
Would raise so terrible a wail
As moved
His
Grandpapa
the
Duke
To utter the severe rebuke:
“When I, Sir! was a little Boy,
An Animal was not a Toy!”

His father’s Elder Sister, who
Was married to a Parvenoo,
Confided to Her Husband, “Drat!
The Miserable, Peevish Brat!
Why don’t they drown the Little Beast?”
Suggestions which, to say the least,
Are not what we expect to hear
From Daughters of an English Peer.
His grandmamma, His Mother’s Mother,
Who had some dignity or other,
The Garter, or no matter what,
I can’t remember all the Lot!
Said “Oh! that I were Brisk and Spry
To give him that for which to cry!”
(An empty wish, alas! for she
Was Blind and nearly ninety-three).
The Dear Old Butler thought—but there!
I really neither know nor care
For what the Dear Old Butler thought!
In my opinion, Butlers ought
To know their place, and not to play
The Old Retainer night and day
I’m getting tired and so are you,
Let’s cut the Poem into two!

(SECOND CANTO)

It happened to Lord Lundy then,
As happens to so many men:
Towards the age of twenty-six,
They shoved him into politics;
In which profession he commanded
The income that his rank demanded
In turn as Secretary for
India, the Colonies, and War.
But very soon his friends began
To doubt if he were quite the man:
Thus, if a member rose to say
(As members do from day to day),
“Arising out of that reply ...!”
Lord Lundy would begin to cry.
A Hint at harmless little jobs
Would shake him with convulsive sobs.

While as for Revelations, these
Would simply bring him to his knees,
And leave him whimpering like a child.
It drove his Colleagues raving wild!
They let him sink from Post to Post,
From fifteen hundred at the most
To eight, and barely six—and then
To be Curator of Big Ben!...
And finally there came a Threat
To oust him from the Cabinet!

The Duke—his aged grand-sire—bore
The shame till he could bear no more.
He rallied his declining powers,
Summoned the youth to Brackley Towers,
And bitterly addressed him thus—
“Sir! you have disappointed us!
We had intended you to be
The next Prime Minister but three:
The stocks were sold; the Press was squared:
The Middle Class was quite prepared.
But as it is!... My language fails!
Go out and govern New South Wales!

The Aged Patriot groaned and died:
And gracious! how Lord Lundy cried!

"Lord Lundy" is reprinted from Cautionary Tales for Children. Hilaire Belloc. 1907.

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Old 02-13-2013, 01:36 PM   #143
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If you lot are going to widen this thread out to include anyone you feel like including, with a faint hint of connection to the original topic...

what about Ollie Cromwell? what a leader AND he had the Irish sussed!
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:39 PM   #144
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If you lot are going to widen this thread out to include anyone you feel like including, with a faint hint of connection to the original topic...

what about Ollie Cromwell? what a leader AND he had the Irish sussed!
He had warts. You wouldn't see a bloke like that managing Real Madrid.
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:50 PM   #145
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He had warts. You wouldn't see a bloke like that managing Real Madrid.
But he did asked to be portrayed "Warts and all" and for once an artist obliged.

But Richard III had been vilified unfairly by the victors. Even his portraits in the Royal Collection had been subtly modified to make him look like a villain.
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Old 02-14-2013, 05:38 AM   #146
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If you lot are going to widen this thread out to include anyone you feel like including, with a faint hint of connection to the original topic...

what about Ollie Cromwell? what a leader AND he had the Irish sussed!
That's the nature of conversation. I know that is unusual here but just consider yourself a skilled conversationalist.
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Old 02-14-2013, 06:16 AM   #147
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The sixth page and this thread is still vaguely on track?

That only happens in the hottest Asians and Redheads threads.
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:09 AM   #148
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The Royal Navy officers were professionals, having to pass examinations in seamanship before they could progress.
Happy days!

"Firstly you must always implicitly obey orders, without attempting to form any opinion of your own regarding their propriety. Secondly, you must consider every man your enemy who speaks ill of your king; and thirdly you must hate a Frenchman as you hate the devil."

Horatio Nelson
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Old 02-14-2013, 09:25 AM   #149
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Happy days!

"Firstly you must always implicitly obey orders, without attempting to form any opinion of your own regarding their propriety. Secondly, you must consider every man your enemy who speaks ill of your king; and thirdly you must hate a Frenchman as you hate the devil."

Horatio Nelson
I like Winston Churchill's wartime comment on Naval Traditions:

"Which of rum, buggery or the lash will help?"
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Old 02-14-2013, 11:37 AM   #150
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If you lot are going to widen this thread out to include anyone you feel like including, with a faint hint of connection to the original topic...

what about Ollie Cromwell? what a leader AND he had the Irish sussed!
What about him?
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