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Old 07-16-2013, 07:04 PM   #1
darkerdreamer
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The Importance of Hip Hop (2005+ redux)

This is a subject very dear to me that some of you may not be interested in at all, feel free to ignore this rambling. Some of you may be aware that hip hop (not rap, very different beasts) has driven certain communities to find an affinity with poetry, while this has mostly been limited to spoken word slam style poetry, it still helps keep our art alive.

Personally, I had very limited poetic interest until I discovered predecessors of Def Poetry Jam (usually local poetry slams that started being spread across public access networks in the late 1990s-early 2000s), before that my only experience was terrible couplet poetry and a small amount of Shakespeare due to a failure of my horribly ranked school district. Many youths of my era faced that same problem growing up in similar communities, seeing poetry and most creative writing as something that had no impact on them and therefor no importance.

The late 90s were a beautiful time on the hip hop scene, and drove people to write intelligent lyrics, or kernels of poetry. Unfortunately hip hop hit the back burners as gangsta rap gained more prominence and most people wanted to hear drivel about shooting guns and slapping hos than anything with substance. The tide is turning back, it has been for half a decade now. Whether this style of music is your cup of tea or not, I encourage anyone brave enough to delve into non-mainstream hip hop and give it an open-minded listen. Artists are no longer subscribing to the same 4 4 scheme, lazy rhymes and substance-free music. The spectrum is getting wider and engulfing more and more people from all walks of life to look at lyrics more than beats, and start those kernels of poetry that have been long missing.

I have been extremely inspired to see my childhood neighborhood spring up 5(!) separate monthly poetry slams where growing up we had 1 that was bi-annual. Even happier still to hear that my old terrible district is actively encouraging students to attend, seeing a spark of interest in creative writing that hadn't existed in years past.

I leave you with some examples of what I mean, please note I only "like" one of these songs, but the points I made above I think can be appreciated in all of the below. While there are still some trappings of the scars rap left (please stop saying trick and bitch, its tired, you guys), the shift has been fantastic. I challenge you to at least listen to one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nzAxWPQaNlg - Mad Villain - ALL CAPS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0HY5r_4xrEA - Black Milk - Losing Out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELFcTam4LJA - Jay Electronica - Exhibit A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzCukmO4fhg - Das Racist - You Oughta Know
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Orlbo9WkZ2E - Death Grips - Guillotine (alright, this one can barely be classified as hip hop, this is more punk rock hop)

If anyone is interested in more resources to find quality hip hop I'd be happy to share some links. If everyone hates this thread that is more than fine, I got it off my chest and am satisfied.
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:49 PM   #2
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Nice! I was just looking for some hip hop to link to another thread yesterday. I posted Talib Kwali.

I think it's strange people don't seem to think of this stuff as poetry. I wrote a way too long poem while I watched a bunch of Def Poetry Jam on youtube. I have a mind to give it a trim and post it sometime.

Das Racist reminds me a bit of The Streets. Not to say the streets is the greatest, but I remember being so freaked out to hear rap that wasn't gangster rap that also wasn't the beastie boys. Not that there's anything wrong with the beasties.

Some of the spoken word hip hop people can really perform their stuff, I think that's something that's missing from so many other kinds of poetry.

So you should post some stuff that you DO like, darkerdreamer.
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Old 07-18-2013, 08:53 PM   #3
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Thanks for sharing these. I love hip hop (and even some rap). No doubt in my mind that it's poetry.
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Old 07-19-2013, 03:11 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Desejo View Post
I love hip hop (and even some rap).
Is there a difference?
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Old 07-21-2013, 09:52 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by bogusagain View Post
Is there a difference?
Abso-fucking-lutely. I encounter this mindset frequently and frankly I understand it. I held this same mentality for years. Let's take a different standpoint for a moment, parse this and tell me what you think:

Is there a difference between rock and pop?

When you compare your standard billboard artist and Pink Floyd yes they do use the same instruments, but the comparison to craftsmanship is so disparate it might as well be a different genre. The same applies in this field, IMO. It may sound the same due to musical preference and prejudice, but in the same way I can say Johnny Cash was a defining character for country and Toby Keith should burn his guitar, I can appreciate the difference even though the genre is not my preferred musical medium.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Palba_Noruda View Post
Nice! I was just looking for some hip hop to link to another thread yesterday. I posted Talib Kwali.

So you should post some stuff that you DO like, darkerdreamer.
I don't actively hate anything I posted, I see the merit in everything linked. However, I have very extreme tastes in hip hop which could be considered backpacker (a somewhat derogatory term for people who prefer outsider hip-hop). In any case, here are some current playlist favorites with annotations though no one asked for them:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijPE7fe4XTg - DELTRON 3030 - Virus - The simple act of sampling becomes an art form in this song. Music and quote are used liberally to weave a story about the future of the internet. Imperfect uses of chorus and bridge I can forgive due to the poignancy of the message and execution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRVOOwFNp5U - Hopsin - Ill Mind of Hopsin 5 - This intentionally starts as a terrible rap song and moves towards a metamorphosis and conflict of self. I could do without the religious undertones but the message is pure, "Stop acting like you have something to prove and be something of value."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otPxoVQiIGo - Childish Gambino - Freaks and Geeks - Donald Glover is an amazing lyricist, even though he holds onto the "bitches and hos" trope. It is almost unavoidable in the current landscape, but not inexcusable. Even still, his rhymes are well planned and often poignant, credit where credit is due. Also he was on Community and has done several side projects I am fond of (Mystery Team rules!)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtOwSRGBMG8 - Earl Sweatshirt ft. Tyler the Creator - Say what you will about Odd Future (if you've heard of them) but the roots of the group are deep and well earned. While they may sway to traditional roots of misogyny and lazy lyrics, its is punctuated with meters that are barely seen nowadays. They have metaphor and simile that are crisp enough to be called amazing, especially in this track and many others ("Blade", "Dat Ass", "Molliwopped")
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Old 07-22-2013, 12:14 AM   #6
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I am currently wandering about the heartland of America with limited access to the Internet, but I'm quite curious about this topic, being someone who has never felt much attraction toward rap or hip hop--not that I could tell the difference between them.

I assume this is an age thing, and that I am cast in the role of Disapproving Father in that drama, but I would like a bit of guidance as to what you think as the best of either/both genres, 2d.

Like, where does Rage Against the Machine fit, if it does at all? They're like the only group that I would think might fit into the r/hh continuum that I've ever much listened to.

Oh, or unless you'd count Arnold Schönberg's Pierrot Lunaire as a kind of 1912 precursor. Which you probably shouldn't.

I'll be back Thursday, anyway. Please hang around that long, hey? You might teach an old dog new mix.
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Old 07-22-2013, 10:20 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkerdreamer View Post
Abso-fucking-lutely. I encounter this mindset frequently and frankly I understand it. I held this same mentality for years. Let's take a different standpoint for a moment, parse this and tell me what you think:

Is there a difference between rock and pop?

When you compare your standard billboard artist and Pink Floyd yes they do use the same instruments, but the comparison to craftsmanship is so disparate it might as well be a different genre. The same applies in this field, IMO. It may sound the same due to musical preference and prejudice, but in the same way I can say Johnny Cash was a defining character for country and Toby Keith should burn his guitar, I can appreciate the difference even though the genre is not my preferred musical medium.
I'm not adding anything intelligent to this, but I Abso-fucking-lutely love it, country, have no idea who Toby Keith is and probably wouldn't care, but some of them should burn their guitars but only if they climb into it first. Cash on the other hand...
Keep it going, DD
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Old 07-22-2013, 12:13 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkerdreamer View Post
Abso-fucking-lutely. I encounter this mindset frequently and frankly I understand it. I held this same mentality for years. Let's take a different standpoint for a moment, parse this and tell me what you think:

Is there a difference between rock and pop?

When you compare your standard billboard artist and Pink Floyd yes they do use the same instruments, but the comparison to craftsmanship is so disparate it might as well be a different genre. The same applies in this field, IMO. It may sound the same due to musical preference and prejudice, but in the same way I can say Johnny Cash was a defining character for country and Toby Keith should burn his guitar, I can appreciate the difference even though the genre is not my preferred musical medium.
You got me beat on Toby Keith, I've never heard of him.

Well, I googled for the difference and as far as I can tell because have you have guessed, I am no expert, rap is more hard-edged with hardcore lyrics, gangsta stuff, homophobia, misogynistic and generally anti-social lyrics sung by nihilistic provocateurs who seem more into money and bling than revolution. While hip-hop is more up-beat and positive.

I've tried listening to a couple of each but I can't understand what is being said so I couldn't really check if what I read about each is right. Though I have to admit, I think I am a little old to listen to BOOM-BOOM music. In a heat wave like today, I'm more likely to be listening to something a little more mellow.

BTW You've got Arthur Brown as a avatar, I saw him in 1970 long before rap surfaced, if it was about then. I also saw Kraftwerk in mid 70s who were the grand daddy of electronic dance music.

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Old 07-22-2013, 09:15 PM   #9
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I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised to the response to this thread, thanks everyone for playing into my mad obsessions. Nothing like being able to share something you love with people you respect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzara View Post
I'll be back Thursday, anyway. Please hang around that long, hey? You might teach an old dog new mix.
Rage definitely fits in my opinion. You will find purists who are very strict in the "what is hip hop" and "hip hop vs. rap" debates. I think many genres not classically classed in this base are still good fits from rock to reggae to blues. Its all about the soul of the music.

The closest fits I can think for your criteria (assumption based that you mean somewhat rock-heavy music with political leanings, please correct me if you meant something else) would be the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApFM8qIo-Ys - Michael Franti and Spearhead - Rock the Nation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAD4FKNpvsk - Dead Prez - Hip Hop
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlCmQcRPtRg - Damian Marley - Welcome to Jamrock (reggae but I think it fits)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UVtpXvzzXiA - Talib Kweli - Get By (less rock undertones, but Talib always has a message with a point like a sword, one of my favorite overall artists)

Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
I'm not adding anything intelligent to this, but I Abso-fucking-lutely love it, country, have no idea who Toby Keith is and probably wouldn't care, but some of them should burn their guitars but only if they climb into it first. Cash on the other hand...
Keep it going, DD
You're better off not knowing who he is, trust me. Thanks for the encouragement.

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Originally Posted by bogusagain View Post
I've tried listening to a couple of each but I can't understand what is being said so I couldn't really check if what I read about each is right.

BTW You've got Arthur Brown as a avatar, I saw him in 1970 long before rap surfaced, if it was about then.
It can be hard to submerge into the depths of hip hop without lyrics pulled up in another tab, I'm certainly not giving easy examples either. It is well worth it though in many cases. I highly recommend a site like http://rapgenius.com/ which will not only give you the lyrics but also the meanings behind them. Your assessment of rap vs. hip hop is accurate, but there is certainly no hard and fast rule. Even in some of my examples you will find instances of the rap tropes I hate so much, it is hard to completely separate the two. In my opinion, as long as it is satirical it is acceptable.

I'm actually a big fan of Kraftwerk, I remember being introduced to them via Pocket Calculator (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSBybJGZoCU) in my early teens as well as GO - Stellar (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WC_sTe1ngGM) and being blown away by a new genre from the past that I had never heard anything come close to sounding like.

And my avatar isn't Arthur Brown, its Ernst Fuchs although the resemblance is sort of uncanny in some photos.
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Old 07-28-2013, 10:39 PM   #10
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Fantastic seeing so many of you enjoying Form Poetry in this way
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Old 08-06-2013, 07:19 PM   #11
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ETA
references a little historical, seems a little dated, no bass, no music


“The golden mean
of the dark wayfarer’s way between
black Scylla and white Charybdis, I
have traveled; subdued ifs in the way;
from vile-canaille balconies and nigger heavens, seen
day beasts and night beasts of prey
in the disemboweling pits of
Europe and America,
in the death-worming bowels of
Asia and Africa;
and, although a Dumb Ox (like young Aquinas), I
have not forgot
the rainbows and the olive leaves against the orient sky.

the guy died in 1966
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Old 08-06-2013, 07:27 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
ETA
references a little historical, seems a little dated, no bass, no music


“The golden mean
of the dark wayfarer’s way between
black Scylla and white Charybdis, I
have traveled; subdued ifs in the way;
from vile-canaille balconies and nigger heavens, seen
day beasts and night beasts of prey
in the disemboweling pits of
Europe and America,
in the death-worming bowels of
Asia and Africa;
and, although a Dumb Ox (like young Aquinas), I
have not forgot
the rainbows and the olive leaves against the orient sky.

the guy died in 1966
Wow that's a hell of a poem. Definitely worth clicking to read the whole thing. Thanks for posting it.
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:00 PM   #13
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Wow that's a hell of a poem. Definitely worth clicking to read the whole thing. Thanks for posting it.
here is a white guy's attempt, being not an expert on rapp, but some of it sounds close, a little rhyme shy, perhaps
Complacencies of the peignoir,
and late coffee and oranges in a sunny chair,
And the green freedom of a cockatoo upon a rug mingle
to dissipate the holy hush of ancient sacrifice.
She dreams a little,
and she feels the dark encroachment of that old catastrophe,
As a calm darkens among water-lights.
The pungent oranges and bright,
green wings seem things in some procession of the dead,
Winding across wide water,
without sound.
The day is like wide water,
without sound,
Stilled for the passing of her dreaming feet over the seas,
to silent Palestine,
Dominion of the blood and sepulchre.
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Old 08-06-2013, 08:13 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
here is a white guy's attempt, being not an expert on rapp, but some of it sounds close, a little rhyme shy, perhaps
Complacencies of the peignoir,
and late coffee and oranges in a sunny chair,
And the green freedom of a cockatoo upon a rug mingle
to dissipate the holy hush of ancient sacrifice.
She dreams a little,
and she feels the dark encroachment of that old catastrophe,
As a calm darkens among water-lights.
The pungent oranges and bright,
green wings seem things in some procession of the dead,
Winding across wide water,
without sound.
The day is like wide water,
without sound,
Stilled for the passing of her dreaming feet over the seas,
to silent Palestine,
Dominion of the blood and sepulchre.
Ha. I know this one. The more I read Wallace, the more I like him.
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Old 08-06-2013, 09:30 PM   #15
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Ha. I know this one. The more I read Wallace, the more I like him.
Wally was an Auslander?
the pacing and words in sentence structure seem similar, from little I know about rap (drive bys) both seem like they would fit.
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Old 08-06-2013, 10:03 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
Wally was an Auslander?
the pacing and words in sentence structure seem similar, from little I know about rap (drive bys) both seem like they would fit.
Wally was an auslander, caught between worlds. There's this apocryphal story where someone followed him into his club and tried to talk to him about poetry and he cut the guy dead. Said this is a men's club or something to that effect and walked away. He was a very odd duck. He did not want poetry world bleeding into insurance adjuster world except in his poems, I suppose.

I know very little rap. Some I like, some I really don't. But sure there are similarities and that is why I hate to put too much into labels. Poetry is more a continuum to me.
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Old 08-07-2013, 09:11 AM   #17
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So does that mean it's ok to like form poetry when there's music behind it otherwise shun it like the plague when it's on the written page? (tongue in cheek!!) Although I wish the original posters in this thread would answer me
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They say a smile is a gift which is free to the giver and precious to the recipient.
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If at first you don't succeed....skydiving is not for you ....
If you don't pay your exorcist .... do you get repossessed?
I shall always decide not to decide, unless of course I decide to change my mind.
....But I, being poor, have only my dreams, I have spread my dreams under your feet,Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.......
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Old 08-07-2013, 08:05 PM   #18
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So does that mean it's ok to like form poetry when there's music behind it otherwise shun it like the plague when it's on the written page? (tongue in cheek!!) Although I wish the original posters in this thread would answer me
It is not form poetry, they are lyrics. As lyrics they are done more for the music than a sheet of paper. The same holds true for any genre. It is a trade-off.
I just want a Picasso in my casa, no, my castle
I'm a hassa, no, I'm an asshole
I'm never satisfied, can't knock my hustle
I wanna Rothko, no, I want a brothel
Jay Z
Hassa is a slang for an asshole, corrupted person, or someone who abuses their position in society for personal gains. Living the life without thinking, a limitless lifestyle.
From the website.
Funny we had a guy post here
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=852395
he had also posted a sonnet, not a bad one, but didn't quite follow the rules, er, I had to settle that dispute, but I really doubt it is him that has been leaving the lastest anon comments on mine.
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Old 08-07-2013, 10:16 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
It is not form poetry, they are lyrics. As lyrics they are done more for the music than a sheet of paper. The same holds true for any genre. It is a trade-off.
I just want a Picasso in my casa, no, my castle
I'm a hassa, no, I'm an asshole
I'm never satisfied, can't knock my hustle
I wanna Rothko, no, I want a brothel
Jay Z
Hassa is a slang for an asshole, corrupted person, or someone who abuses their position in society for personal gains. Living the life without thinking, a limitless lifestyle.
From the website.
Funny we had a guy post here
http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=852395
he had also posted a sonnet, not a bad one, but didn't quite follow the rules, er, I had to settle that dispute, but I really doubt it is him that has been leaving the lastest anon comments on mine.
Lyrics are form poetry, if I read mine out to music according to you they would suddenly cease to be poetry. All lyrics go down on paper (or wherever) first ......... so which comes first the chicken or the egg?
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Blessed are the cracked for it is they that let in the light
They say a smile is a gift which is free to the giver and precious to the recipient.
But giving the finger is free, too, and I find it more personal and sincere.
If at first you don't succeed....skydiving is not for you ....
If you don't pay your exorcist .... do you get repossessed?
I shall always decide not to decide, unless of course I decide to change my mind.
....But I, being poor, have only my dreams, I have spread my dreams under your feet,Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.......
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Old 08-07-2013, 11:43 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by UnderYourSpell View Post
Lyrics are form poetry, if I read mine out to music according to you they would suddenly cease to be poetry. All lyrics go down on paper (or wherever) first ......... so which comes first the chicken or the egg?
depends on the definition of form, I believe I addressed that...
as for the chicken or egg, I am having a hard time figuring out who came first God or Man, or was it the Word? In which it would be the chicken, for after all it has been written that The Bird is The Word, although it may have been sung previously.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:57 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
, I am having a hard time figuring out who came first God or Man, or was it the Word?
Was man, god's mistake or was god, man's? (Nietzche? I think)

religions are born this way
the need to know, before
the need to control, or does
the need to control come first
requiring a confection of truth
knowledge being knowing
knowing being what knowledge is
like the widow telling her child
your father would never approve
the child unable to ask, the father
being a long time dead
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Old 07-13-2014, 03:20 PM   #22
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care for a spot of Chap Music?

'Hip-Hop Was To Blame After All'

thank you Darker Dreamer
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Old 07-13-2014, 03:47 PM   #23
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care for a spot of Chap Music?

'Hip-Hop Was To Blame After All'

thank you Darker Dreamer
Thanks for that. Subscribed
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Old 07-13-2014, 04:10 PM   #24
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but how can you not love rap?

Die Antwoord
die Sud Ausländer

about 1:55 begins the most stunning visual. I'm in love.

for todski
"Stamina"
about 4:58

Poetry?
probably not.
Not as stickly defined.
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Old 07-14-2014, 09:11 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
but how can you not love rap?

Die Antwoord
die Sud Ausländer

about 1:55 begins the most stunning visual. I'm in love.

for todski
"Stamina"
about 4:58

Poetry?
probably not.
Not as stickly defined.
Hahahahahahahaha that is my new ring tone now. Brilliant hilarious and kinda embarrassing for me great stuff !!!
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