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Old 08-13-2014, 09:33 PM   #1
twelveoone
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Structural Dynamics

Ordinarily I don't do this, however...

and if you don't know the terms, you can google it.

a single child .......
byAshesh9©

it was raining torrentially &
I was bundled up in my snug , rainproof Windcheater
happily feeling immune to the Wet , the Cold ....


.......till I suddenly saw a small , miserable toddler shivering in the

rain totally exposed , wet, drenched ................


how can any man be comfortable as long as a
single child shivers miserably ....in the rain ????


Now, I don't know if, you, Ash knows the difference between a protagonist and the writer, giving you the benefit of the doubt the poem can be divided in three, protagonist, literary foil and writer intrusion. The writer heavily implies that his view is the same as the protagonist, either way the foil is only one third of the "poem", this is more indicative of something comedic (or other) than serious. The excess of punctuation also tends to this work not being taken serious as poetry.

Now Ash, GM has taken a far more tragic scenario and handled it with care, (Broken Villanelle) the foils are Maria and Josť . If there is any writer intrusion it is synchronous with the voice of the protagonist in the last line.

I have written something entirely different, (Gates of Hell) for an entirely different purpose, with four foils, Betty, Darla, Linda, and Tonya, if there is writer intrusion, it is in the first two lines.

Taking the emotional load out of the words, tell me about the ratios of foil to protagonist. Which of the six is yours closest to?
Another question: who is the focal character in yours?
In GM's; it is Josť, in mine; it is the protagonist, remember the poems serve two completely different purposes.

Your move. Make it carefully. Do you see what I am driving at?
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Old 08-14-2014, 09:42 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
Ordinarily I don't do this, however...

and if you don't know the terms, you can google it.

a single child .......
byAshesh9©

it was raining torrentially &
I was bundled up in my snug , rainproof Windcheater
happily feeling immune to the Wet , the Cold ....


.......till I suddenly saw a small , miserable toddler shivering in the

rain totally exposed , wet, drenched ................


how can any man be comfortable as long as a
single child shivers miserably ....in the rain ????


Now, I don't know if, you, Ash knows the difference between a protagonist and the writer, giving you the benefit of the doubt the poem can be divided in three, protagonist, literary foil and writer intrusion. The writer heavily implies that his view is the same as the protagonist, either way the foil is only one third of the "poem", this is more indicative of something comedic (or other) than serious. The excess of punctuation also tends to this work not being taken serious as poetry.

Now Ash, GM has taken a far more tragic scenario and handled it with care, (Broken Villanelle) the foils are Maria and Josť . If there is any writer intrusion it is synchronous with the voice of the protagonist in the last line.

I have written something entirely different, (Gates of Hell) for an entirely different purpose, with four foils, Betty, Darla, Linda, and Tonya, if there is writer intrusion, it is in the first two lines.

Taking the emotional load out of the words, tell me about the ratios of foil to protagonist. Which of the six is yours closest to?
Another question: who is the focal character in yours?
In GM's; it is Josť, in mine; it is the protagonist, remember the poems serve two completely different purposes.

Your move. Make it carefully. Do you see what I am driving at?
12-oh-1 , please give me a link to Gates of Hell : can't find it in your Poems
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Old 08-14-2014, 09:45 AM   #3
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:38 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
Ordinarily I don't do this, however...

and if you don't know the terms, you can google it.

a single child .......
byAshesh9©

it was raining torrentially &
I was bundled up in my snug , rainproof Windcheater
happily feeling immune to the Wet , the Cold ....


.......till I suddenly saw a small , miserable toddler shivering in the

rain totally exposed , wet, drenched ................


how can any man be comfortable as long as a
single child shivers miserably ....in the rain ????


Now, I don't know if, you, Ash knows the difference between a protagonist and the writer, giving you the benefit of the doubt the poem can be divided in three, protagonist, literary foil and writer intrusion. The writer heavily implies that his view is the same as the protagonist, either way the foil is only one third of the "poem", this is more indicative of something comedic (or other) than serious. The excess of punctuation also tends to this work not being taken serious as poetry.

Now Ash, GM has taken a far more tragic scenario and handled it with care, (Broken Villanelle) the foils are Maria and Josť . If there is any writer intrusion it is synchronous with the voice of the protagonist in the last line.

I have written something entirely different, (Gates of Hell) for an entirely different purpose, with four foils, Betty, Darla, Linda, and Tonya, if there is writer intrusion, it is in the first two lines.

Taking the emotional load out of the words, tell me about the ratios of foil to protagonist. Which of the six is yours closest to?
Another question: who is the focal character in yours?
In GM's; it is Josť, in mine; it is the protagonist, remember the poems serve two completely different purposes.

Your move. Make it carefully. Do you see what I am driving at?
12-oh-1 , thank you for teachin' me : in my case my Soul / Atman / Conscience / Viveka / Discrimination [ between Right'n Wrong / Just 'n Unjust / Good'n Bad ] stirred @ the sight of the child shiverin' & I was just a mechanical accessory to the Soul over-ridin' my conscious Ego 'n forcin' me to write ....so the Protagonist was my Soul 'n the me the Poet was just an Instrument answerin' to a Higher Command ........if you see what I mean ?
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Old 08-14-2014, 10:42 AM   #5
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12-oh-1 , in Africa they have this Concept it's called Ubantu or How can All be well when One is unwell ? please Google Ubantu & see & I didn't know of Ubantu till yesterday so I wrote independently of Ubantu .......
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Old 08-14-2014, 02:55 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by todski28 View Post
I read the Gates of Hell : now 12-oh-1 just like you feel / find my " ????" Detracts from my Poetry quality i find the tasteless word " Fuck" detractin' from the sentence Fuck Tania in your Poem : could'nt you put " Damn Tania" instead of " Fuck Tania " ?
I would also like the Lady Poets' considered view on whether they would be more comfortable with Fuck Tania or Damn Tania ? Angie , Annie , Butters , Trix , Dem please oblige 'n answer this ?
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Old 08-14-2014, 03:25 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Ashesh9 View Post
I read the Gates of Hell : now 12-oh-1 just like you feel / find my " ????" Detracts from my Poetry quality i find the tasteless word " Fuck" detractin' from the sentence Fuck Tania in your Poem : could'nt you put " Damn Tania" instead of " Fuck Tania " ?
I would also like the Lady Poets' considered view on whether they would be more comfortable with Fuck Tania or Damn Tania ? Angie , Annie , Butters , Trix , Dem please oblige 'n answer this ?
Why just the ladies Ash?
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Old 08-14-2014, 06:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashesh9 View Post
I read the Gates of Hell : now 12-oh-1 just like you feel / find my " ????" Detracts from my Poetry quality i find the tasteless word " Fuck" detractin' from the sentence Fuck Tania in your Poem : could'nt you put " Damn Tania" instead of " Fuck Tania " ?
I would also like the Lady Poets' considered view on whether they would be more comfortable with Fuck Tania or Damn Tania ? Angie , Annie , Butters , Trix , Dem please oblige 'n answer this ?
you are evading...
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Old 08-14-2014, 06:33 PM   #9
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Between GM's Broken Villanelle and my Gates of Hell, there are a certain set of similarities.
1. The writer is in control.
2. There is little writer intrusion, GM may be synchronous with the driver in the last line, in mine the first two lines are a false start.
3. The development of the characters is in proportion to the need of the work.
4. Both protagonists are in situations that they are not in full control of.
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Old 08-14-2014, 07:13 PM   #10
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Beyond that there is a world of difference.
GM has written in a scenario that requires a sense of sensitivity, mine requires none.
He has written a poem that is a stand alone poem, I have already commented on some of the qualities, recommended, and called it a work of art.
I on the other hand have written a fucking joke, it is a foil for the LABELS on the end.
Betty, no purpose in the main poem, a foil for the label
Darla, something to get by
Linda, is more complicated and shares top billing with the protagonist
Tonya, the antagonist
Again this is a fucking joke, it is intended as a joke, because I don't feel the same way about labels.

Your kid has the same functional equivalent as Darla. And no way approaches either Maria or Jose.
GM's intention was to write a poem, he did using poetry, and without pulling the sympathy ploy.
Mine was a joke, using the tools.
Now what was yours?
Stripped of the writer's intervention, what you have is a simple contrast.
Have.
Have not.
A most fertile field for exploitation. Your writer intervention was a gross sympathy ploy, and you exploited the kid for your benefit, whether you know it or not. And you benefited, a fave from someone else who uses it and the moral ploy.
"This was a impulse / flash reaction without any earlier history or further repercussions to this Reaction !?!
I reacted as a 1. a Parent 2. a Humane Being &3. a Poet !?!"
You did not react as a Poet.
Everything subsequent is sheer demagoguery and the politics of evasion.
I gave you good advice, if you want to write poetry, the second worst thing you can do is submit four a day and expect them to have any weight or value.
The first worst is to dismiss others advice with the contempt and arrogance you have shown in the past.
Now am I going to get 20 more demonisation poems?
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Old 08-15-2014, 12:06 AM   #11
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First clean up the " Fuck" in Fuck Tanya in Thy own Poem before cleaning up the " ???!!!" In Thy brother's Poem ( with apologies to tge Bible )
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Old 08-15-2014, 12:09 AM   #12
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First clean up the " Fuck" in Thy own "Fuck Tanya" before you start Cleaning out the "????!!!!!!" In Thy brother's Poem , 12-oh-1 !
Apologies to the Bible
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Old 08-15-2014, 12:17 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixareforkids View Post
Why just the ladies Ash?
Trix : to the last all tge Gender-insensitive Gents on this thread have been blind to sheer tastelessness of this " Fuck Tanya" . Just like my "????!!!!!" Does violence to 12-oh-1's sensibilities his constant use of this term "Fuck" does violence to my sensibilities . He could have easily used Damn to convey Anger , Disgust , Contempt !
This Fuck Tanya is from a Poet who piously commented on your Morning Woody " almost makes me feel ashamed to have been born a man " ??!
The Needle of Double Standards (read Hypocrisy) quivers & points @ Mr. 12-oh-1 !
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Old 08-15-2014, 01:05 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Ashesh9 View Post
Trix : to the last all tge Gender-insensitive Gents on this thread have been blind to sheer tastelessness of this " Fuck Tanya" . Just like my "????!!!!!" Does violence to 12-oh-1's sensibilities his constant use of this term "Fuck" does violence to my sensibilities . He could have easily used Damn to convey Anger , Disgust , Contempt !
This Fuck Tanya is from a Poet who piously commented on your Morning Woody " almost makes me feel ashamed to have been born a man " ??!
The Needle of Double Standards (read Hypocrisy) quivers & points @ Mr. 12-oh-1 !
Do you not realize that the way you framed your query, directing it only at women, is misogynistic?

Have you actually read any of my posts on the threads? To answer your query as it's apparently not obvious to you, fuck in all its forms and usages is one of my favorite words. And fuck is no more a male word than any of its counterparts. As finding its use tasteless or crass is no more a female trait than a male but rather an individual one.

I'm standing with Champagne. This pointless duel between the two of you is tiresome. Please, both of you, leave the rest of us out of it. While I realize that there will be heated discussions wherever there are people conversing, the two of you could be conducting yours via PM.
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Old 08-15-2014, 01:12 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Ashesh9 View Post
First clean up the " Fuck" in Thy own "Fuck Tanya" before you start Cleaning out the "????!!!!!!" In Thy brother's Poem , 12-oh-1 !
Apologies to the Bible
Context is king...
I can see I'm getting nowhere, but let me remind the easily outraged righteous one,
this is a porno site.
and probably how you got here
the toddler in the poem
and if you are a father, you may have indulged
and if Linda and Tanya are real (which they are not) are probably engaged in right now, which is why Pooh is sitting on the street, glassy eyed and grinning.
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Old 08-15-2014, 02:08 AM   #16
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I am only interested here in what the title of the thread suggests, "Structural Dynamics".
To use an analogy from music, tonality and the way it is affected by functional harmony is one of the main "structural dynamics" giving shape and form to a tonal piece, but that is not the whole story about its success or lack of it.
If the 3 divisions as given by 1201, (protagonist, literary foil and writer) are dynamics of structure in the poem under discussion, I want to know more about the pros and cons of each one.
1201 has indicated that in "Broken Villanelle" there are only two of these three dynamics present as any incidental "writer intrusion" is synchronous to the voice of the protagonist and hence unobtrusive. Does that mean that if "writer intrusion" was separated from the voice of the protagonist as a distinct formal element on its own the poem would be of less artistic merit, or at least a different poem?
And something else, 1201. Do you think that "writer intrusion" is a structural dynamic that is always to be avoided or at least handled with greater care?
And if finally we get our structural elements working as best as they can, do we have, in your opinion, a successful work of art without any further effort?
These are some of my concerns for reading through this thread and I would like the conversation to go on so that I can learn by exchanging ideas with other people here.
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Old 08-15-2014, 02:47 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Trixareforkids View Post
Do you not realize that the way you framed your query, directing it only at women, is misogynistic?

Have you actually read any of my posts on the threads? To answer your query as it's apparently not obvious to you, fuck in all its forms and usages is one of my favorite words. And fuck is no more a male word than any of its counterparts. As finding its use tasteless or crass is no more a female trait than a male but rather an individual one.

I'm standing with Champagne. This pointless duel between the two of you is tiresome. Please, both of you, leave the rest of us out of it. While I realize that there will be heated discussions wherever there are people conversing, the two of you could be conducting yours via PM.
Trix , i don't like the Eminem Trash Counterculture where Fuck is a Mandatory element in Lyrics / Poetry but i do Not expect others to share my views : but i do like to emphasize my anger , disgust , frustration by using Punctuation & if 12-oh-1 does not replace Fuck with Damn i am damn well Not gonna tone down my Punctuation device !
Havin' said that yes i do agree with you our duelling is tiresome & i will not carry on a Public Duel on the threads : i'm gonna send 12-oh-1 a Happy Independence Day PM & request him to continue our conversation elsewhere where we need not posture for an audience & possibly conduct biz with a modicum of civility 'n politeness ! BTW , Trix : Wish you too a Happy 68th Indian Independence Day & thank you Pel for havin' wished me on our National Holiday !
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Old 08-15-2014, 03:12 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by pelegrino View Post
I am only interested here in what the title of the thread suggests, "Structural Dynamics".
To use an analogy from music, tonality and the way it is affected by functional harmony is one of the main "structural dynamics" giving shape and form to a tonal piece, but that is not the whole story about its success or lack of it.
If the 3 divisions as given by 1201, (protagonist, literary foil and writer) are dynamics of structure in the poem under discussion, I want to know more about the pros and cons of each one.
1201 has indicated that in "Broken Villanelle" there are only two of these three dynamics present as any incidental "writer intrusion" is synchronous to the voice of the protagonist and hence unobtrusive. Does that mean that if "writer intrusion" was separated from the voice of the protagonist as a distinct formal element on its own the poem would be of less artistic merit, or at least a different poem?
And something else, 1201. Do you think that "writer intrusion" is a structural dynamic that is always to be avoided or at least handled with greater care?
And if finally we get our structural elements working as best as they can, do we have, in your opinion, a successful work of art without any further effort?
These are some of my concerns for reading through this thread and I would like the conversation to go on so that I can learn by exchanging ideas with other people here.
"writer intrusion" is about ME, the ME telling, in a sensitive area the area is the part that has to be highlighted and handled with care, not the FUCKING ME leading as a ploy.
Ask, where is he going with this? What is doing?
In GM's case the direction was a poem, the focal charter is what the poem is about.
All things lead to it.
In my case, everything is disposable, a false start and LABELS at the end, a writer frame, a set-up, for what I think about labels. There is the poem, not in the poem.
There is a ploy, it should be obvious, but there is nothing asked for. No attempt at profundity. No asking of leading questions, no grand statement. What is the reason for the poem? Does it live by itself? In context, mine was a fucking joke which is the way I wrote it and meant it.

In the other case, it is all about the ME telling. The protagonist is synonymous with the writer. With top billing. This was a fucking joke.

Trix has a poem a protagonist and an antagonist (or foil) the poem forms around that interplay, that is quite different. Here the protagonist may be totally synchronous (not synonymous) with the writer. There are no ploys. It is a poem, an effective one, it may even cause you to view things differently.

But generally unless you get the elements in the right order, you will write bullshit. Avoid that and then work on the poetry.

Anyway, I talk to much, and am told I'm full of shit, so I'll just but out and let the pros step in and sort it out, ya know the real poets.
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Old 08-15-2014, 07:25 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashesh9 View Post
I read the Gates of Hell : now 12-oh-1 just like you feel / find my " ????" Detracts from my Poetry quality i find the tasteless word " Fuck" detractin' from the sentence Fuck Tania in your Poem : could'nt you put " Damn Tania" instead of " Fuck Tania " ?
I would also like the Lady Poets' considered view on whether they would be more comfortable with Fuck Tania or Damn Tania ? Angie , Annie , Butters , Trix , Dem please oblige 'n answer this ?
imo, Ash, it was the perfect word.
as writers, we should not be scared of words - they're our tools. it's a case of choosing the right word, like a jigsaw puzzle piece. the reason why i think it's the perfect word? reasons, actually:

hard sound
layering of meaning
overall context
illustrates the mood of the ''speaker'' and, in this instance, the writer with regards to labels/tags

'damn' would have simply been too soft, not dismissive enough, and lacking the connotations his choice had.

i'm a fan of 12's writing for many reasons, not the least because he never chooses words blindly but looks for the exact one to place in the exact spot it works best. despite this being a reactionary piece, he's used his skills just the same as if it were something he'd worked on for months, if not years. he applies.
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Old 08-15-2014, 07:31 AM   #20
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Ash, with regards to your excessive punctuation:

i do find it a distraction. at first it made me smile because it appeared to encompass your enthusiasm for writing -but over time its repetition seems more gimmick than substance; if you stop relying on them to convey the emotional 'hit' and look more closely at choosing words that will do that job for you, your poetry will definitely improve.
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Old 08-15-2014, 08:54 AM   #21
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Ash, with regards to your excessive punctuation:

i do find it a distraction. at first it made me smile because it appeared to encompass your enthusiasm for writing -but over time its repetition seems more gimmick than substance; if you stop relying on them to convey the emotional 'hit' and look more closely at choosing words that will do that job for you, your poetry will definitely improve.
Butters , thanks for your advice , i will heed it very carefully & thank you for tryin' to coach this hopelessly mediocre poet into somethin' Readworthy !
Best Wishes for your forthcomin' Nuptials & as you probably know Harry is very well beloved Brother-Poet of mine
Warm regards
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Old 08-15-2014, 09:14 AM   #22
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imo, Ash, it was the perfect word.
as writers, we should not be scared of words - they're our tools. it's a case of choosing the right word, like a jigsaw puzzle piece. the reason why i think it's the perfect word? reasons, actually:

hard sound
layering of meaning
overall context
illustrates the mood of the ''speaker'' and, in this instance, the writer with regards to labels/tags

'damn' would have simply been too soft, not dismissive enough, and lacking the connotations his choice had.

i'm a fan of 12's writing for many reasons, not the least because he never chooses words blindly but looks for the exact one to place in the exact spot it works best. despite this being a reactionary piece, he's used his skills just the same as if it were something he'd worked on for months, if not years. he applies.
Butters thanks for your very reasonable , rational explanation : i do admire 12-oh-1 's serious Poems & he is a vastly superior Poet who has honed & perfected his craft over decades 'n i'm nowhere in or near his League !
Havin' said that this Poem doth Not work for me : this unprotected , drunken sex , multiple partners , possible acid trippin' is actually a Lethal Cocktail tailor-made for the spread of AIDS & i would have happily remained ignorant of this Poem, if Circumstances had been kinder . But GM's Broken Villanelle is somethin' i can empathize with & works for me on so many layers , levels , ethically also : the patient , his Mother the Taxi Driver the Tragedy , the Human angle grips the reader ! I am grateful 12-oh-1 has taught mee about tge 3 Actors in a Poetic Situation : Protagonist , Foil 'n Writer : will keep it in mind while writin' in Future .
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Old 08-15-2014, 03:04 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Ashesh9 View Post
Butters , thanks for your advice , i will heed it very carefully & thank you for tryin' to coach this hopelessly mediocre poet into somethin' Readworthy !
Best Wishes for your forthcomin' Nuptials & as you probably know Harry is very well beloved Brother-Poet of mine
Warm regards
Ashesh9
all i offer are my own opinions, ash - they're all i have.
we've all room for improvement; i'm sure 12 would be the first to agree and it's why he stresses that we should all strive to be the best writers we can be.
thankyou

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Butters thanks for your very reasonable , rational explanation : i do admire 12-oh-1 's serious Poems & he is a vastly superior Poet who has honed & perfected his craft over decades 'n i'm nowhere in or near his League !
Havin' said that this Poem doth Not work for me : this unprotected , drunken sex , multiple partners , possible acid trippin' is actually a Lethal Cocktail tailor-made for the spread of AIDS & i would have happily remained ignorant of this Poem, if Circumstances had been kinder . But GM's Broken Villanelle is somethin' i can empathize with & works for me on so many layers , levels , ethically also : the patient , his Mother the Taxi Driver the Tragedy , the Human angle grips the reader ! I am grateful 12-oh-1 has taught mee about tge 3 Actors in a Poetic Situation : Protagonist , Foil 'n Writer : will keep it in mind while writin' in Future .
yeah, i do a fair imitation of fair and reasonable

he's not without his faults, not least his penchant for misspelling 'were' as 'where' lol. but yes, he has spent years (as have many here) working on improving his skills.

it's absolutely ok not to like the content of a poem, even whilst retaining respect for its author. it's an entirely personal thing.

we can all learn from these open discussions, but when they slide into mutual recrimination and name-calling (even if it's creative, lol) people tend to stop paying attention and that's a sorry thing.
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Old 08-16-2014, 01:46 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Ashesh9 View Post
Butters thanks for your very reasonable , rational explanation : i do admire 12-oh-1 's serious Poems & he is a vastly superior Poet who has honed & perfected his craft over decades 'n i'm nowhere in or near his League !
Havin' said that this Poem doth Not work for me : this unprotected , drunken sex , multiple partners , possible acid trippin' is actually a Lethal Cocktail tailor-made for the spread of AIDS & i would have happily remained ignorant of this Poem, if Circumstances had been kinder . But GM's Broken Villanelle is somethin' i can empathize with & works for me on so many layers , levels , ethically also : the patient , his Mother the Taxi Driver the Tragedy , the Human angle grips the reader ! I am grateful 12-oh-1 has taught mee about tge 3 Actors in a Poetic Situation : Protagonist , Foil 'n Writer : will keep it in mind while writin' in Future .
one, did you see any sex?
two, what time period was it set in?
three, it was written NOT for empathy, it was primarily written for one purpose as a fucking joke because I view tags as a fucking joke
four, GM's poem with the 3 actors diverts the attention to the proper spot, as do my 5, which is pretty neat when you consider Betty's the purpose.
Seriously consider the purpose, the intent, execute to it.
five, this moralist stance, I tried to get you to figure that out in your own by linking to Is this poem bad. Your conclusion?
six, GM has written a poem, I had written a joke, yours fit in where? And why?
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Old 08-16-2014, 11:43 PM   #25
Ashesh9
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Question Clearin' up Misapprehensions

Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
one, did you see any sex?
two, what time period was it set in?
three, it was written NOT for empathy, it was primarily written for one purpose as a fucking joke because I view tags as a fucking joke
four, GM's poem with the 3 actors diverts the attention to the proper spot, as do my 5, which is pretty neat when you consider Betty's the purpose.
Seriously consider the purpose, the intent, execute to it.
five, this moralist stance, I tried to get you to figure that out in your own by linking to Is this poem bad. Your conclusion?
six, GM has written a poem, I had written a joke, yours fit in where? And why?
I saw a real life situation : it set off a reaction in my mind & the Poem was the End Product & it's certainly Not a joke or humourous but the fact is you do Not see such scenes in tge US so you can't fathom tge tragic scenario . You may have shot children in Classrooms or Blacks shot without provoca-'shun by Cops but you've probably never encountered a shiverin' child & you very callously call it a "Sympathy Ploy " . I've written a Poem F-U-C-K as a humourous piece , read it & send me your Comments . I've also written another The Cyclist & the Motor Car where the Cyclist ( my late Uncle) is tge Protagonist , the Englishman & Uncle's brothers are the Foil & i am the Poet/ Writer : tell me whether you can make out where the Poem is going & Old Timer don't think my every Poem is an Insult to you !?
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