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POV: I want it all... or do I?

Euphony

Euphony

(=_=)
Joined
Feb 1, 2012
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Sorry for the amateurish question but I'm hoping to reach "mildly proficient" in my writing one day. We all start at the bottom, right?

I have POV issues. I'm honest enough to know I haven't the chops to switch up mid chapter but I'm drawn to go from first to omni at certain critical chapter breaks. (it feels a strong intimacy with the narrators mind when Im FPerson.) But then I hit a critical point where I want a deep look into the other 1/2 off the couples mind.) Is this nuts? It's the omni not THAT less intimate than the 1st but because its out of my comfort zone (only written papers for school before) I'm trying to force a bad habit?

I'd love any thoughts on this. Story examples would be helpful too. It's vexing me because I finally feel like I've got solid dimensional characters in my head and reasonable story (enough to make me want to write it) but my mechanics (and perfectionism) are defeating me.

Thanks for your thoughts and the benefits of your (greater) knowledge :-D

Euph
 
It's done. Keep the changes to explicit separate sections and it can be pulled off.
 
I agree with sr; POV switches are entirely doable in well-delineated sections. There's tons of pop fiction to prove it.

It's worth doing a real gut-check first, though. Do you really need a POV switch? When you have richly conceived characters, it can be very tempting to rotate POV's so that you can spout out their thoughts and feelings. Sometimes it's best to resist that urge and let a non-narrating character's thoughts trickle out in dialogue and body language. What I'm trying to say is that what you're feeling may be a symptom of good character development rather than a true necessity for a POV switch.

Just my $0.02. Do as you will.

-PF
 
What they said with a little better explanation. Come on guys you are so getting a little lazy in your old age. :p

If you are completely positive you want to change viewpoint in the middle of the action, do it with a break. As in not just a new paragraph, but change the font or even add in a page break like * * *. This is for the vocal stupid readers to understand. The smarty pants will grasp the concept quickly and not skip a beat.

By stupid readers I'm not talking the people with an IQ of 80. I'm talking the people who send messages saying they couldn't read the story because of a typo in paragraph three. I had one of those unable to read my story because of a typo in what turned out to be the third to last paragraph. There's no pleasing those people, don't even try and just ignore them. ;)

Now keep in mind, some like me, don't like changing POV. It is actually easier to add the other persons feelings in their body language. Something simple like 'About halfway through the fucking he gets stiffer within me, he starts to shove harder and I can just tell he's lost himself in the passion.' Granted it's not perfect, but it portrays the feelings of the other person, faster than a paragraph or two and you don't suddenly change the tone of the story.
 
emap said:
What they said with a little better explanation. Come on guys you are so getting a little lazy in your old age. :p
Click to expand...

The difference is that I'm not going to write it for the OP. Jumping in and experimenting is what builds a writer, not trying to live in the limits of how someone else tells you you have to write. The question was whether it can be done. Yes, it can be and is done. All you have to do is keep the different POV sections separate (and there are experienced writers who don't even need this limit).
 
emap said:
What they said with a little better explanation. Come on guys you are so getting a little lazy in your old age. :p

If you are completely positive you want to change viewpoint in the middle of the action, do it with a break. As in not just a new paragraph, but change the font or even add in a page break like * * *. This is for the vocal stupid readers to understand. The smarty pants will grasp the concept quickly and not skip a beat.

By stupid readers I'm not talking the people with an IQ of 80. I'm talking the people who send messages saying they couldn't read the story because of a typo in paragraph three. I had one of those unable to read my story because of a typo in what turned out to be the third to last paragraph. There's no pleasing those people, don't even try and just ignore them. ;)

Now keep in mind, some like me, don't like changing POV. It is actually easier to add the other persons feelings in their body language. Something simple like 'About halfway through the fucking he gets stiffer within me, he starts to shove harder and I can just tell he's lost himself in the passion.' Granted it's not perfect, but it portrays the feelings of the other person, faster than a paragraph or two and you don't suddenly change the tone of the story.
Click to expand...

I agree the ***** is a simple way to let the reader know something is shifting. If you do it right, you shouldn't need it, but some readers are so busy skimming for the stroke they might miss the transition.

Personally I'm with you and let the current pov tell the reader what's going on with the other character in how they're reacting and what they're doing.
 
PacoFear said:
I agree with sr; ...may be a symptom of good character development rather than a true necessity for a POV switch.
-PF
Click to expand...

Fascinating. Doubly so as I find your characters are just the sort of believable, rounded types I am shooting for. (they are one of my high water marks)

So I may just need to dig a little deeper rather than get clever with tense switches. A'ight. Nobody said this would be easy (wouldnt be fufilling if it wasnt I suppose) Time to get cracking.
 
lovecraft68 said:
I agree the ***** is a simple way to let the reader know something is shifting. If you do it right, you shouldn't need it, but some readers are so busy skimming for the stroke they might miss the transition.

Personally I'm with you and let the current pov tell the reader what's going on with the other character in how they're reacting and what they're doing.
Click to expand...

I can totally see that point in day to day scenes, etc. The only reason I considered it was for an epiphany moment towards the very end for the 2nd character.

I'm guessing itd be strange being in one head 95% of the story then (even if artfully done) jumping either into her head or to an omni just so I can get the emotional punch I want out of her at the end. (so using her "in the darkness" to my benefit throughout then getting to rush into her brain at the last moments to validate what I suggested would happen (to her mind) did.

I know theres a clever way to do this but darn if I know what it is. Still thinking... glad for all the comments. They are keeping the gears grinding.
 
Euphony said:
I can totally see that point in day to day scenes, etc. The only reason I considered it was for an epiphany moment towards the very end for the 2nd character.

I'm guessing itd be strange being in one head 95% of the story then (even if artfully done) jumping either into her head or to an omni just so I can get the emotional punch I want out of her at the end. (so using her "in the darkness" to my benefit throughout then getting to rush into her brain at the last moments to validate what I suggested would happen (to her mind) did.

I know theres a clever way to do this but darn if I know what it is. Still thinking... glad for all the comments. They are keeping the gears grinding.
Click to expand...

I think going back and forth in a fairly even split is one thing, but if it really is 95/5 than to me that shows you;re not confident enough in your writing to deliver that knock out blow.

If you're staying that much with one character then bail to the other last minute, I think the reader may get confused and may pick up on the lack of confidence.

If it were me I would just work my ass off to get the proper response from character 2 fron one's eyes to deliver the effect.

But that's my opinion, you of course are the writer. I just get the feeling you're "running"
 
lovecraft68 said:
I just get the feeling you're "running"
Click to expand...
HAHA. I got that feeling too. Hence the post to work on my issues rather than "settle" for what I can currently do.

The more I think of it, the more I'm glad I can at least see the defect. Better to be the worst writer in the room and know it than be the worst in the room but sure that you are the best.

Jerk it porn as a path to self enlightenment... who knew?
 
Euphony said:
HAHA. I got that feeling too. Hence the post to work on my issues rather than "settle" for what I can currently do.

The more I think of it, the more I'm glad I can at least see the defect. Better to be the worst writer in the room and know it than be the worst in the room but sure that you are the best.

Jerk it porn as a path to self enlightenment... who knew?
Click to expand...

Epiphany's can happen in the strangest places!

But, remember that in writing there are many things like this where it is not so much right and wrong as a rule, but what's right and wrong for the author and learning what's right and wrong for you will just come like it did for all of us, trial and error.
 
lovecraft68 said:
Epiphany's can happen in the strangest places!

But, remember that in writing there are many things like this where it is not so much right and wrong as a rule, but what's right and wrong for the author and learning what's right and wrong for you will just come like it did for all of us, trial and error.
Click to expand...

Thanks so much for the wisdom. Totally get you re: right&wrong. My issue is modesty I guess. I see so many people w/"I am what I am" attitudes and their writing stales at an alarming rate. (you know what I mean, the stories are damn near interchangable other than names and maybe swap in or out of a few of the sex acts)

I'd rather be technically correct though uninspired to begin. It seems creativity damn near can't help but flow out of the gifted here. Follow the cut in path for a bit, let creative build on the easier hike in, go off trail (risking getting lost) once I am more sure of my compass skills and that I know what true north IS.
 
sr, this is a serious point. I've read so many novels in third person omni which switch POV several times within chapters and seem to work well.

I understand that, as well as your belief that first person POV is more intimate than third. (I just think it's like handing a Kalashnikov to a first grader to promote it with new writers).

Can you sketch out for dummies like me how a first person POV story can successfully accommodate lapses into omni third person? I'm not having a dig, just seriously interested as I struggle with the concept.
 
elfin_odalisque said:
sr, this is a serious point. I've read so many novels in third person omni which switch POV several times within chapters and seem to work well.

I understand that, as well as your belief that first person POV is more intimate than third. (I just think it's like handing a Kalashnikov to a first grader to promote it with new writers).

Can you sketch out for dummies like me how a first person POV story can successfully accommodate lapses into omni third person? I'm not having a dig, just seriously interested as I struggle with the concept.
Click to expand...

Check out Stephen King's 'Christine' for an example. By my reading, King uses first person to build an emotional connection to the narrator Dennis (and through him, to Leigh and Arnie), combined with third person to build menace by showing us things that Dennis isn't ready to see. I'm pretty sure he uses it in several other stories too, but 'Christine' is the only one I have handy. In other books he also switches between third close and third omni for similar effect.

I've seen a similar approach used with an "annotated memoirs" device: most of the story is told as a first-person recollection by one of the participants, but the editor occasionally chimes in to provide info that wouldn't be available from the first-person viewpoint. Technically it's not quite third-person omni, but the effect is much the same.
 
elfin_odalisque said:
sr, ...........

Can you sketch out for dummies like me how a first person POV story can successfully accommodate lapses into omni third person? I'm not having a dig, just seriously interested as I struggle with the concept.
Click to expand...

I'll get slammed for it but I have to second that request.:eek: Seriously, no dig, no cheap shot, nothing. I'd really like to see how it's done and how to make it palatable. I think I did it once, but if I did, I'm not sure I did it well.

So, please, maybe?
 
Not really. PacoFear gave the answer in post #3. I don't need to give a response when someone's already posted what I would have said--often better than I would have said it.
 
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