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Old 01-06-2012, 08:54 PM   #1
CrimsonMaiden
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Lightbulb 2012 Survivor News & Views: Announcements and Discussions for the Survivorphile

This thread is for any contest related official announcements or questions for the 2012 contest. Post it here and a moderator or fellow contestant will be happy to help you.

I've moved the discussion for any rules changes to this thread now that we've officially started the contest. If you wish to go back and read the beginning of the discussion (though the pertinent info is already here in this thread), go to the 2012 Survivor Discussion thread.

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Old 01-06-2012, 10:06 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by CrimsonMaiden View Post
It looks like the main issues for possible changes to rules this year is what to do about the chapter stories (leave as is, change to allow a survivor only category to score chapter stories, or change it back to allow them in all categories as it used to be a few years ago) and whether or not to extend the cap level in Novels in Novellas to allow for an entire story to possibly post and count for score instead of being limited to three chapters unless you fill all categories in cap level one. Let's see if we can't get these hammered out fairly quickly so we can finalize the rules for this year.
I would prefer the chapters be returned to the way they were several years ago. Chapters were allowed and were placed in the genres that the chapter best fit.

I would like to see an increase in the cap levels for Novels/Novellas. First level being 5 - second 4 - last 3. (the descending order only because the other cap levels descend by one story each level).
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:34 PM   #3
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Question Vote for your opinion on chapters in the 2012 Survivor Contest

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHairedandFriendly View Post
I would prefer the chapters be returned to the way they were several years ago. Chapters were allowed and were placed in the genres that the chapter best fit.

I would like to see an increase in the cap levels for Novels/Novellas. First level being 5 - second 4 - last 3. (the descending order only because the other cap levels descend by one story each level).
The biggest problem I see with expanding the cap level for that category is that in order for someone to completely fill all of cap level one and go to cap level two, they would not only have to write 3 stories for all other categories but 5 stories for Novels which would equal at least 37,500 words. It could keep some people from reaching cap level two having to add that extra 15000 words. If the majority would like it changed to 5, it can be done, but I wanted to make sure everyone understood what it would mean.

So that's one vote for abolishing the no chapter rule and one vote for expanding the Novels cap to 5 stories for cap level one and so on.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:11 PM   #4
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My vote is for chapter category, less messy and you run less risk of 750 word chapters just to turn a normal novel story (7500 words and 6 points) into 10 3-point stories (30 points).

As for the novels and novella's cap, I have an idea for that too. Keep the cap level as it is at 3, however also allow additional chapters to be posted without needing to fill every other category to get the next cap level, however, limit any beyond the normal cap level to 1 point only. Also only one story can take advantage of this, and every chapter listed for regular points and bonus must come from that story.

For example: I only write a 10 chapter (75,000 word) story for Novel and Novellas in a given year. So the first cap would look like normal to start.

===Novels and Novellas===
6pt:Chapter 1
2pt:Chapter 2
2pt:Chapter 3
Bonus 1 pt: Chapter 4
Bonus 1 pt: Chapter 5
Bonus 1 pt: Chapter 6
Bonus 1 pt: Chapter 7
Bonus 1 pt: Chapter 8
Bonus 1 pt: Chapter 9
Bonus 1 pt: Chapter 10

Thus giving me a total of 17 points for writing a 75000 word story.

If the said person managed to fill all 35(36?) categories for the normal cap level, they could then of course use some of the chapters to fill the second (and third as case may be) level as well.

I limit it to one story only because if I was a really crazy writer you could start 3 large stories and get points for every chapter of all 3 stories. By limiting it to 1, and also limiting the extra points, you allow people to get credit for doing all their chapters to a story, but you don't severely unbalance the contest by requiring people to overcap that category just to compete.
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Old 01-06-2012, 11:44 PM   #5
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Old 01-07-2012, 01:16 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LOAnnie2 View Post
My vote is for chapter category, less messy and you run less risk of 750 word chapters just to turn a normal novel story (7500 words and 6 points) into 10 3-point stories (30 points).

As for the novels and novella's cap, I have an idea for that too. Keep the cap level as it is at 3, however also allow additional chapters to be posted without needing to fill every other category to get the next cap level, however, limit any beyond the normal cap level to 1 point only. Also only one story can take advantage of this, and every chapter listed for regular points and bonus must come from that story.

For example: I only write a 10 chapter (75,000 word) story for Novel and Novellas in a given year. So the first cap would look like normal to start.

===Novels and Novellas===
6pt:Chapter 1
2pt:Chapter 2
2pt:Chapter 3
Bonus 1 pt: Chapter 4
Bonus 1 pt: Chapter 5
Bonus 1 pt: Chapter 6
Bonus 1 pt: Chapter 7
Bonus 1 pt: Chapter 8
Bonus 1 pt: Chapter 9
Bonus 1 pt: Chapter 10

Thus giving me a total of 17 points for writing a 75000 word story.

If the said person managed to fill all 35(36?) categories for the normal cap level, they could then of course use some of the chapters to fill the second (and third as case may be) level as well.

I limit it to one story only because if I was a really crazy writer you could start 3 large stories and get points for every chapter of all 3 stories. By limiting it to 1, and also limiting the extra points, you allow people to get credit for doing all their chapters to a story, but you don't severely unbalance the contest by requiring people to overcap that category just to compete.
When I suggested the idea of expanding the first cap for N & N, it was so an author would be more likely to complete the novel in one year, instead of over a longer period. I'm certain readfers prefer this and I would expect most authors to prefer it too.

However, if somebody writes a three chapter novel, each chapter being at least 7,500 words long, that would also fill the cap. The same would apply to three novellas of appropriate length. It could only be expanded to four or five entries if every one of those entries was part of the same novel.

ETA: I really don't like the idea of a "Chapter Story" Category but, if it is to be put in place, I believe the limitations should be the same as those placed on N & N, except the chapters would have no minimum length and would only count for three and one point, regardless of their length.
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Old 01-07-2012, 01:37 AM   #7
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I vote for keeping the no chapters rule.
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Old 01-07-2012, 01:49 AM   #8
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I vote for keeping the no chapters rule.
I also favor keeping the "No chapter" rule, but I believe a distinction should be made between a subsequent chapter and a sequel. I believe that if a story comes to a conclusion, and another piece of work is later written involving the same characters and even the same location, the two pieces are to be considered separate stories.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:25 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Boxlicker101 View Post
I also favor keeping the "No chapter" rule, but I believe a distinction should be made between a subsequent chapter and a sequel. I believe that if a story comes to a conclusion, and another piece of work is later written involving the same characters and even the same location, the two pieces are to be considered separate stories.
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Won't you be the final judge in determining that this year anyway?
Not the final judge, but I will have a say in it.
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:30 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Boxlicker101 View Post
I also favor keeping the "No chapter" rule, but I believe a distinction should be made between a subsequent chapter and a sequel. I believe that if a story comes to a conclusion, and another piece of work is later written involving the same characters and even the same location, the two pieces are to be considered separate stories.
In my opinion, a chapter can not stand alone as a story. A sequel can. I am in favor of sequels.
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Old 01-07-2012, 04:46 PM   #11
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I don't want to see a "Chapter Category" - at all. Adding a 36th category is not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that the chapters be submitted to the genre they fit as they had been back before the rules changed and they weren't even allowed.

So when the voting is tallied up, please make sure mine is for Chapter genre submissions - NOT a Chapter Category. Thanks.



Crimson - I see the disadvantage to making a 5 cap limit because of the number of words needed for someone to fill the cap and see your concern. I still like the idea, though it will be harder - even for myself to fill it. I think it stems from the fact that sometimes it is hard to divide a story into 3 chapters. If others feel that 4 would work instead of five and then descending order for submissions in the cap, that would be agreeable for me as well.


In the end, I'll write and play the game. If I screw up my score card I know someone will point it out to me, hopefully in a nice way.
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Old 01-07-2012, 04:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
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In my opinion, a chapter can not stand alone as a story. A sequel can. I am in favor of sequels.
How would titling go:

The Lofty Princess Sequel One
The Lofty Princess Sequel Two
etc. . .

or

Part One
Part Two

A Sequel in my opinion is a brand new story where a chapter is a part of a story still in play. I understand that a chapter may not be able to "stand alone" but folks read chapter submissions all the time, so excluding them makes no sense to me.
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Old 01-07-2012, 06:05 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHairedandFriendly View Post
I don't want to see a "Chapter Category" - at all. Adding a 36th category is not what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting that the chapters be submitted to the genre they fit as they had been back before the rules changed and they weren't even allowed.

So when the voting is tallied up, please make sure mine is for Chapter genre submissions - NOT a Chapter Category. Thanks.



Crimson - I see the disadvantage to making a 5 cap limit because of the number of words needed for someone to fill the cap and see your concern. I still like the idea, though it will be harder - even for myself to fill it. I think it stems from the fact that sometimes it is hard to divide a story into 3 chapters. If others feel that 4 would work instead of five and then descending order for submissions in the cap, that would be agreeable for me as well.

In the end, I'll write and play the game. If I screw up my score card I know someone will point it out to me, hopefully in a nice way.
The cap for Novels & Novellas would not necessarily be five, but that would be the maximum. If somebody writes a three chapter story or three novellas, that would fill the category to the first cap. However there would be an option for that person to write a four or five chapter novel to fill the cap. It would be the author's choice, and he or she would include the information Cap filled after the last chapter had been listed.

The reason for the "no-chapter" rule was that somebody started writing stories and breaking them up into numerous, very short chapters, sometimes in different genres, and scoring ten or fifteen or more points for an ordinary 5,000 word story.
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Old 01-07-2012, 07:32 PM   #14
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The cap for Novels & Novellas would not necessarily be five, but that would be the maximum. If somebody writes a three chapter story or three novellas, that would fill the category to the first cap. However there would be an option for that person to write a four or five chapter novel to fill the cap. It would be the author's choice, and he or she would include the information Cap filled after the last chapter had been listed.

The reason for the "no-chapter" rule was that somebody started writing stories and breaking them up into numerous, very short chapters, sometimes in different genres, and scoring ten or fifteen or more points for an ordinary 5,000 word story.


I understand why the rule was changed and sadly the real answer to all of this is that it won't matter - in the end if someone wants to find a way to milk the system, they are going to do it. There are always corners to go around and always someone willing to find them and manipulate them. Integrity for some amounts to nothing, for others it is a very important part of their lives.

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Old 01-07-2012, 07:46 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RedHairedandFriendly View Post
How would titling go:

The Lofty Princess Sequel One
The Lofty Princess Sequel Two
etc. . .

or

Part One
Part Two

A Sequel in my opinion is a brand new story where a chapter is a part of a story still in play. I understand that a chapter may not be able to "stand alone" but folks read chapter submissions all the time, so excluding them makes no sense to me.
Here's the thing about sequels...they can't relate to the *plot* of the previous story at all (and a lot of sequels do). They have to be totally different. You can use the same characters but the story itself has to be entirely different. So if you are writing about a person who works for an escort service, you can't write 10 different stories about the person with 10 different clients because those are too much like chapters. The stories aren't different. They are just different chapters of the same adventure. And this is why there is so much trouble with the chapter rule. I like the "idea" of it but it's a pain in the ass to figure out what's a chapter and what isn't because it's really subjective. IMO, what I mentioned above is a chapter story. To someone else, they might think it's sequels.

If you wrote a story about a woman and her college adventures, and then later on wrote a story about her life as a married woman (or something else going on in her adult life that doesn't relate at all to college) THEN you have a stand alone non-chapter story.
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Old 01-07-2012, 10:25 PM   #16
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If you wrote a story about a woman and her college adventures, and then later on wrote a story about her life as a married woman (or something else going on in her adult life that doesn't relate at all to college) THEN you have a stand alone non-chapter story.
Unless you referenced her college adventures at all, then it would go back to the chapter, since after all, can't use any parts of the plot, right? Hence why the distinction is so hard for people, almost any series of literary novels would fall under chapters on Literotica--Narnia, LoTR, Star Wars (the movies as written as books), Harry Potter, Twilight, etc. These are all chapter stories since they all carry threads of the same plots within their stories as per what was just posted.

About the only way to really do it on Literotica and get away with it would be instead to do it as prequels. Start from the end and go toward the beginning--then you're guaranteeing you're not referencing anything because the before wasn't considered in the first story and it can't relate to the after plot since that hasn't happened yet.

As it stands often you'll read comments on stories asking for one thing--Sequels, however under survivor rules it's not really feasable since almost any continuation of a storyline will result in it being discounted for survivor. Again, the quality vs quantity argument in a way.

Another edit: Though I do notice one thing rather interesting. Just poking my heads in some of the polls for the best 2010 stories in the normal threads (the polls from the 12th annual awards), of the few categories I checked out, EVERY SINGLE ONE had the word (or abbreviation for) "Chapter" on it. Just ponder over that
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Old 01-07-2012, 11:55 PM   #17
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Old 01-08-2012, 10:25 AM   #18
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Another edit: Though I do notice one thing rather interesting. Just poking my heads in some of the polls for the best 2010 stories in the normal threads (the polls from the 12th annual awards), of the few categories I checked out, EVERY SINGLE ONE had the word (or abbreviation for) "Chapter" on it. Just ponder over that

You know I did "ponder" this and went back to see my "W"s and out of the four I have only one is a chapter story. That chapter story is the final chapter to an amazing series that many readers and writers really enjoyed. To me it was recognition for the whole story because it was the final chapter to an amazing chain. My being rewarded for the work of others was humbling, because I know that "winning" chapter was a win for the entire team, not just me. Yes, I got the certificate, but in the end I know without a doubt we were all thrilled to have the story recognized.

So after pondering further I opted to look at those "Chapter" stories that won and see what chapters got the "W".
Chapters that won with the first chapter of the story: 4
Chapters won in the almost beginning/middle/end of the story: 13
Chapters won with the last chapter of a story: 7
Chapters that were no longer available to view due to bad links or gone but had won: 2 (winning at Ch. 14/Ch. 8)


I'm not sure if you're trying to imply that Chapters are unfair in regards to readership/contests or not, and am the first to admit I have a hard time reading between the lines of innuendo, so I won't assume anything you're trying to convey.

What I do see from the above tally (which may be off by a count or two because I don't know what those foreign characters mean in the foreign chapter submissions) is that people have to chose what chapter they like because they can't chose the whole story. There is nothing wrong with that. It is their choice, favorite story really means for some favorite author. People would have to be wearing rose-colored glasses to not see that.

Some were chosen to win with the first chapter, some the last, giving recognition to the whole piece? Or again a favored writer? Unless you ask each voter what they think of chapters you'll never know the answer.

There is a place for chapter stories in Lit. and there is a place for them in this contest. To deny it denies the fact that - and I'll agree with you here - there were a lot of chapter stories in the 12th Annual awards. A LOT - 116 - Nominations and winners combined (approx.)

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Old 01-08-2012, 10:37 AM   #19
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Quote:
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You know I did "ponder" this and went back to see my "W"s and out of the four I have only one is a chapter story. That chapter story is the final chapter to an amazing series that many readers and writers really enjoyed. To me it was recognition for the whole story because it was the final chapter to an amazing chain. My being rewarded for the work of others was humbling, because I know that "winning" chapter was a win for the entire team, not just me. Yes, I got the certificate, but in the end I know without a doubt we were all thrilled to have the story recognized.

So after pondering further I opted to look at those "Chapter" stories that won and see what chapters got the "W".
Chapters that won with the first chapter of the story: 4
Chapters won in the almost beginning/middle/end of the story: 13
Chapters won with the last chapter of a story: 7
Chapters that were no longer available to view due to bad links or gone but had won: 2 (winning at Ch. 14/Ch. 8)


I'm not sure if you're trying to imply that Chapters are unfair in regards to readership/contests or not, and am the first to admit I have a hard time reading between the lines of innuendo, so I won't assume anything you're trying to convey.

What I do see from the above tally (which may be off by a count or two because I don't know what those foreign characters mean in the foreign chapter submissions) is that people have to chose what chapter they like because they can't chose the whole story. There is nothing wrong with that. It is their choice, favorite story really means for some favorite author. People would have to be wearing rose-colored glasses to not see that.

Some were chosen to win with the first chapter, some the last, giving recognition to the whole piece? Or again a favored writer? Unless you ask each voter what they think of chapters you'll never know the answer.

There is a place for chapter stories in Lit. and there is a place for them in this contest. To deny it denies the fact that - and I'll agree with you here - there were a lot of chapter stories in the 12th Annual awards. A LOT - 116 - Nominations and winners combined (approx.)
Chapter stories are an integral and valuable part of Literotica. There are some readers who only read chapter stories, just as there are some readers who don't read chaper stories.

Yet, this is my personal opinion. Chapter stories should not be considered as entrants to win in any contest on Liteotica. As matter of fact, with all the chapter stories that win the monthly contests, chapter stories ruin the monthly contest for the other stand alone stories.

I'd like to see Literotica have a seperate monthly contest just for chapter stories, as, perhaps, the Survivor contest should have a separate category just for chapter stories. As it is now, chapter stories should not be considered to win any contest on Literotica.

Unless there is a separate chapter story category, I don't want to reinstate chapter stories in the Survivor contest.

By the way, I'd like to thank Laurel for sending me my Literotica sweatshirt, coffee mug, baseball cap, and keychain, as well as the $500 for finally winning the 2012 Survivor contest.
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:14 PM   #20
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Hey, are y'all awake? Every single scorecard thread that Box and I have created for this year's contest said "welcome to the 2011 contest" on the inside and nobody caught it! Are y'all all in lala land??

Okay, so it looks as if the majority do not want chapters at all. I think a good way to confirm this would be a poll, so I will start one for it shortly so we can put that issue to bed.

We need to make a decision about the novels and novellas category and if we wish to change the cap rule for that one category. Personally, I'd say leave alone. Just because you can't get points for any chapters past three until you fill cap one for all categories doesn't mean you can't finish it and just not get points. But that's just my opinion and since I am not planning on participating this year, I'm just guiding discussion and playing devil's advocate here.
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:29 PM   #21
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Hey, are y'all awake? Every single scorecard thread that Box and I have created for this year's contest said "welcome to the 2011 contest" on the inside and nobody caught it! Are y'all all in lala land??
Nope, didn't see it. Only oops I caught was I was called the wrong name in the opening post and Box fixed it after a quick PM. - Thanks Box!!

I love polls - not. lol But I get why we need them.

Why not a poll on raising the cap limit or not to raise it on Novels/Novelettes as well, just kill both issues with two poles.
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:30 PM   #22
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Please go vote in the chapter poll. Make sure you vote in the poll itself and not just post in the thread. I only set the poll to last for three days, so go vote ASAP!
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Old 01-08-2012, 06:34 PM   #23
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Nope, didn't see it. Only oops I caught was I was called the wrong name in the opening post and Box fixed it after a quick PM. - Thanks Box!!

I love polls - not. lol But I get why we need them.

Why not a poll on raising the cap limit or not to raise it on Novels/Novelettes as well, just kill both issues with two poles.
I will when we get it pared down to what the options are. I am still not personally clear on what people are wanting to do with it outside of raising the cap in some way. We've had more weigh in on the chapter issue. I've seen a couple of suggestions, but honestly, I didn't clearly understand how exactly they wanted it done. So I think we need some more discussion on it before putting it to a vote.
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Old 01-08-2012, 08:16 PM   #24
RedHairedandFriendly
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Well, I voted and after hearing all the points folks made I chose to go with a chapter category - can't believe I said that and am willing to concede to 36 categories to fill, but oh well.

Good decision to post the poll.


For discussion to resume on the Novel/Novelettes.

I like the first cap either set at 4 or 5, the word count still held at 7500 words. This could be done with either 4/5 stories at 7500 + submitted in one bulk submission each time.

My Long Story (8750 words)
Her Name Was His (11500 words)
Milo Marked My Christmas Tree (40000 words)
Snake Charmer Dates the Muffin Man (7500 words)
----cap level 1 reached----


Or break stories up and submit it in "chapters" - dividing the chapters to reach the cap as long as all four/five submissions reach 7500 words or more:

Milo Marked My Christmas Tree Chapter 1 (15000 words)
Milo Marked My Christmas Tree Chapter 2 (15000 words)
Milo Marked My Christmas Tree Chapter 3 (10000 words)
Snake Charmer Dates the Muffin Man (7500)
----cap level 1 reached----
My Long Story (8750 words)
Her Name Was His (11500 words)
Another Silly Title (8000 words)
----cap level 2 reached-----
Candle Wax is Sexy (20000 words)
Candle Wax is Sexy (20000 words)


*Please ask permission before using these awesome titles.
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Old 01-08-2012, 09:02 PM   #25
LOAnnie2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrimsonMaiden View Post
Hey, are y'all awake? Every single scorecard thread that Box and I have created for this year's contest said "welcome to the 2011 contest" on the inside and nobody caught it! Are y'all all in lala land??

Okay, so it looks as if the majority do not want chapters at all. I think a good way to confirm this would be a poll, so I will start one for it shortly so we can put that issue to bed.

We need to make a decision about the novels and novellas category and if we wish to change the cap rule for that one category. Personally, I'd say leave alone. Just because you can't get points for any chapters past three until you fill cap one for all categories doesn't mean you can't finish it and just not get points. But that's just my opinion and since I am not planning on participating this year, I'm just guiding discussion and playing devil's advocate here.
Actually I caught it and send Box a personal message 2 days ago, he never replied
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