a human embryo

[Once-ler]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

it's a good picture.
i'm naming it bob.

I love his wittle proto hands!

[blunt_trauma]

it's cute looking in a henson kinda way.

i've miscarried at that stage.
it was heart breaking because i had created, in my mind, the person it could become. which isn't rational really.

[bronzeage]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

the same can be said of a fish.

I am not arguing for or against killing it, but if it can be killed, it is alive.

[blunt_trauma]

Originally Posted by bronzeage

I am not arguing for or against killing it, but if it can be killed, it is alive.

who said it wasn't alive

[bronzeage]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

who said it wasn't alive

Not me, but if it is alive, then killing it ends a life.

Killing is something we do all the time. All we really do is argue over which ones to kill.

[blunt_trauma]

Originally Posted by bronzeage

Not me, but if it is alive, then killing it ends a life.

Killing is something we do all the time. All we really do is argue over which ones to kill.

it has less consciousness than the cod i ate at dinner.
it's just a matter of species loyalty, no?

[Wobnoid]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

it has less consciousness than the cod i ate at dinner.
it's just a matter of species loyalty, no?

It's entirely about species loyalty. You can roll your dice on embryonic cod, but the chances are, the cod it might become will never take out the garbage or change your depends. It's not science. It's something entirely else.

[blunt_trauma]

Originally Posted by Wobnoid

It's entirely about species loyalty. You can roll your dice on embryonic cod, but the chances are, the cod it might become will never take out the garbage or change your depends. It's not science. It's something entirely else.

nor will it mug me or shoot my neighbour.
it will reliably taste good in batter.

[bronzeage]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

it has less consciousness than the cod i ate at dinner.
it's just a matter of species loyalty, no?

No, it's just a matter of the reason. The cod died because you were hungry. If you were hungry enough, you might have reason to eat another person. If the person were unconscious, it might be easier.

Some people object to killing a cod for hunger. A lot of people object to killing people for hunger. Some people eat only the flesh of fruit, but not seeds or leaves. Go figure.

Some people just can't deal with the idea of killing another person, so they make up different definitions of people to spare their own feelings.

[blunt_trauma]

i'm ok with the idea of killing people.

but that, in my mind, isn't a person yet.

[Wobnoid]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

nor will it mug me or shoot my neighbour.
it will reliably taste good in batter.

Cod probably like fresh ocean-dumped embryos. Just saying...

See? I can dehumanize what's essentially a clot of cells... and nature is a cruel bitch - especially when it comes to feeding cod. Nonetheless, where humanity describes the race, humility describes any one of our places in it. My humility simply starts to vibrate uncontrollably when considering one clot of cells as opposed to another. Minority Report is science horror precisely because science has found a way to quantify points of humility - that by nature are intangible.

The only real science is fuzzy at best in these matters. We can ascertain what percentage of a populace can be expected to become murderers, muggers or potentates. But, we cannot ascribe these traits prior to some point after birth. We roll dice - as we did with the cod - knowing that the chances of rearing a monster are... negligible in the grander scheme. Reliably, our offspring will probably be schmoes, just like us. At the same time, we can ascertain what genetic maladies can be expected of an embryo. Science can tell us only what science knows; what science expects is far less specific.

[girlsmiley]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

^^ i look at that and i see limbs, a head, eyes.
but i don't see a person.
it's brain is incomplete. it's thoughts and emotions are no more complex than those of a fish.
i can't pinpoint the moment where that little creature becomes a person though. somewhere between conception and birth f'sure.
looking at that stage, i find it hard to understand the passion of the antiabortionists.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by Kybele

well, as a society, america kinda does that by withholding access to medical treatment to all but the wealthy.

Since when?

[bronzeage]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

i'm ok with the idea of killing people.

but that, in my mind, isn't a person yet.

That does make it easier. Whatever it takes.

[John Doe]

By the way, if it's not a person then why do you call it a human embryo?

[blunt_trauma]

Originally Posted by bronzeage

That does make it easier. Whatever it takes.

you imply an effort.
but it's the same perplex i felt when i looked at the scans.
in my mind i had created potential people,
but the scans showed not-people.
...they became people. amazing people.
but still, at that point, i saw them and thought... huh!

[blunt_trauma]

Originally Posted by John Doe

By the way, if it's not a person then why do you call it a human embryo?

if i pull a hair out,
it's a human hair.

you're being a moron

[bronzeage]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

you imply an effort.
but it's the same perplex i felt when i looked at the scans.
in my mind i had created potential people,
but the scans showed not-people.
...they became people. amazing people.
but still, at that point, i saw them and thought... huh!

It's just drawing a line. You can draw it anywhere you like and you do not have to justify it to anyone but yourself.

You maybe one of the fortunate people who never have to consider it as more than a philosophical question.

[Wobnoid]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

you imply an effort.
but it's the same perplex i felt when i looked at the scans.
in my mind i had created potential people,
but the scans showed not-people.
...they became people. amazing people.
but still, at that point, i saw them and thought... huh!

It is what a dead one looks like and I still believe in things like star trek. Human fetuses are radioactive. We should all be fucking aware of what they are.

Discuss. I'll be back when I'm wrong.

[blunt_trauma]

Originally Posted by bronzeage

It's just drawing a line. You can draw it anywhere you like and you do not have to justify it to anyone but yourself.

You maybe one of the fortunate people who never have to consider it as more than a philosophical question.

or it's not seeing what i see further on.
and there is no line. no 'now it's not...and now it is!' moment.
it's a progression towards. each day becoming moreso.

rewind a few posts. it's been quite real for me.

Originally Posted by Wobnoid

It is what a dead one looks like and I still believe in things like star trek. Human fetuses are radioactive. We should all be fucking aware of what they are.

Discuss. I'll be back when I'm wrong.

i saw alien when i was pregnant.
nuff said.

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

if i pull a hair out,
it's a human hair.

you're being a moron

You conveniently isolated the word "human".

Answer the question as it was asked.

[blunt_trauma]

Originally Posted by John Doe

You conveniently isolated the word "human".

Answer the question as it was asked.

stop being a moron.

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

stop being a moron.

I think you think I'm getting at something that I'm not getting at.

[blunt_trauma]

Originally Posted by John Doe

I think you think I'm getting at something that I'm not getting at.

no, i just think you're being a moron

[John Doe]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

no, i just think you're being a moron

Is your logic subroutine stuck in a feedback loop?