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dolf, that's a fucked up POV 2 5.26%
i agree with your POV 5 13.16%
i get your POV but don't agree 5 13.16%
i'm antiabortion 6 15.79%
i'm pro choice 21 55.26%
i don't have an opinion 2 5.26%
this is unsexy. where is teh pron? 9 23.68%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 38. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 10-14-2011, 11:34 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by blunt_trauma View Post
it's a good picture.
i'm naming it bob.
I love his wittle proto hands!
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Old 10-14-2011, 01:20 PM   #27
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it's cute looking in a henson kinda way.

i've miscarried at that stage.
it was heart breaking because i had created, in my mind, the person it could become. which isn't rational really.
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Old 10-14-2011, 04:50 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by blunt_trauma View Post
the same can be said of a fish.

I am not arguing for or against killing it, but if it can be killed, it is alive.
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Quote:
Originally posted by LostBaby
My beloved is perfect. He is strong, smart, well read, can & will do anything, tender, and totally adores me. The only thing that could make him better is if he was freak'n wealthy beyond words.
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Old 10-14-2011, 04:53 PM   #29
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I am not arguing for or against killing it, but if it can be killed, it is alive.
who said it wasn't alive
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Old 10-14-2011, 05:50 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by blunt_trauma View Post
who said it wasn't alive
Not me, but if it is alive, then killing it ends a life.

Killing is something we do all the time. All we really do is argue over which ones to kill.
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Quote:
Originally posted by LostBaby
My beloved is perfect. He is strong, smart, well read, can & will do anything, tender, and totally adores me. The only thing that could make him better is if he was freak'n wealthy beyond words.
On the floor of a small room near the city wall, they found the source of the many fragments of wisdom this civilization had left the world.http://bronzeageworks.blogspot.com/
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Old 10-14-2011, 05:55 PM   #31
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Quote:
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Not me, but if it is alive, then killing it ends a life.

Killing is something we do all the time. All we really do is argue over which ones to kill.
it has less consciousness than the cod i ate at dinner.
it's just a matter of species loyalty, no?
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Old 10-14-2011, 06:15 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blunt_trauma View Post
it has less consciousness than the cod i ate at dinner.
it's just a matter of species loyalty, no?
It's entirely about species loyalty. You can roll your dice on embryonic cod, but the chances are, the cod it might become will never take out the garbage or change your depends. It's not science. It's something entirely else.
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Old 10-14-2011, 06:25 PM   #33
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It's entirely about species loyalty. You can roll your dice on embryonic cod, but the chances are, the cod it might become will never take out the garbage or change your depends. It's not science. It's something entirely else.
nor will it mug me or shoot my neighbour.
it will reliably taste good in batter.
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Old 10-14-2011, 06:29 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by blunt_trauma View Post
it has less consciousness than the cod i ate at dinner.
it's just a matter of species loyalty, no?
No, it's just a matter of the reason. The cod died because you were hungry. If you were hungry enough, you might have reason to eat another person. If the person were unconscious, it might be easier.

Some people object to killing a cod for hunger. A lot of people object to killing people for hunger. Some people eat only the flesh of fruit, but not seeds or leaves. Go figure.

Some people just can't deal with the idea of killing another person, so they make up different definitions of people to spare their own feelings.
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Quote:
Originally posted by LostBaby
My beloved is perfect. He is strong, smart, well read, can & will do anything, tender, and totally adores me. The only thing that could make him better is if he was freak'n wealthy beyond words.
On the floor of a small room near the city wall, they found the source of the many fragments of wisdom this civilization had left the world.http://bronzeageworks.blogspot.com/
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Old 10-14-2011, 06:33 PM   #35
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i'm ok with the idea of killing people.

but that, in my mind, isn't a person yet.
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Old 10-14-2011, 07:00 PM   #36
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nor will it mug me or shoot my neighbour.
it will reliably taste good in batter.
Cod probably like fresh ocean-dumped embryos. Just saying...

See? I can dehumanize what's essentially a clot of cells... and nature is a cruel bitch - especially when it comes to feeding cod. Nonetheless, where humanity describes the race, humility describes any one of our places in it. My humility simply starts to vibrate uncontrollably when considering one clot of cells as opposed to another. Minority Report is science horror precisely because science has found a way to quantify points of humility - that by nature are intangible.

The only real science is fuzzy at best in these matters. We can ascertain what percentage of a populace can be expected to become murderers, muggers or potentates. But, we cannot ascribe these traits prior to some point after birth. We roll dice - as we did with the cod - knowing that the chances of rearing a monster are... negligible in the grander scheme. Reliably, our offspring will probably be schmoes, just like us. At the same time, we can ascertain what genetic maladies can be expected of an embryo. Science can tell us only what science knows; what science expects is far less specific.
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Old 10-14-2011, 08:53 PM   #37
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^^ i look at that and i see limbs, a head, eyes.
but i don't see a person.
it's brain is incomplete. it's thoughts and emotions are no more complex than those of a fish.
i can't pinpoint the moment where that little creature becomes a person though. somewhere between conception and birth f'sure.
looking at that stage, i find it hard to understand the passion of the antiabortionists.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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Old 10-14-2011, 11:34 PM   #38
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well, as a society, america kinda does that by withholding access to medical treatment to all but the wealthy.
Since when?
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:04 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by blunt_trauma View Post
i'm ok with the idea of killing people.

but that, in my mind, isn't a person yet.
That does make it easier. Whatever it takes.
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Quote:
Originally posted by LostBaby
My beloved is perfect. He is strong, smart, well read, can & will do anything, tender, and totally adores me. The only thing that could make him better is if he was freak'n wealthy beyond words.
On the floor of a small room near the city wall, they found the source of the many fragments of wisdom this civilization had left the world.http://bronzeageworks.blogspot.com/
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:06 AM   #40
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By the way, if it's not a person then why do you call it a human embryo?
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"Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." --Samuel Clemens

"The healthy man does not torture others - generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers." -- Carl Jung

One need not be a chamber to be haunted,
One need not be a house;
The brain has corridors surpassing
Material place.[...] --Emily Dickinson

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand." -- Albert Einstein

"I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." -- Robert A. Heinlein
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:07 AM   #41
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That does make it easier. Whatever it takes.
you imply an effort.
but it's the same perplex i felt when i looked at the scans.
in my mind i had created potential people,
but the scans showed not-people.
...they became people. amazing people.
but still, at that point, i saw them and thought... huh!
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:08 AM   #42
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By the way, if it's not a person then why do you call it a human embryo?
if i pull a hair out,
it's a human hair.

you're being a moron
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:10 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by blunt_trauma View Post
you imply an effort.
but it's the same perplex i felt when i looked at the scans.
in my mind i had created potential people,
but the scans showed not-people.
...they became people. amazing people.
but still, at that point, i saw them and thought... huh!
It's just drawing a line. You can draw it anywhere you like and you do not have to justify it to anyone but yourself.

You maybe one of the fortunate people who never have to consider it as more than a philosophical question.
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Quote:
Originally posted by LostBaby
My beloved is perfect. He is strong, smart, well read, can & will do anything, tender, and totally adores me. The only thing that could make him better is if he was freak'n wealthy beyond words.
On the floor of a small room near the city wall, they found the source of the many fragments of wisdom this civilization had left the world.http://bronzeageworks.blogspot.com/
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:13 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blunt_trauma View Post
you imply an effort.
but it's the same perplex i felt when i looked at the scans.
in my mind i had created potential people,
but the scans showed not-people.
...they became people. amazing people.
but still, at that point, i saw them and thought... huh!
It is what a dead one looks like and I still believe in things like star trek. Human fetuses are radioactive. We should all be fucking aware of what they are.

Discuss. I'll be back when I'm wrong.
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:19 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by bronzeage View Post
It's just drawing a line. You can draw it anywhere you like and you do not have to justify it to anyone but yourself.

You maybe one of the fortunate people who never have to consider it as more than a philosophical question.
or it's not seeing what i see further on.
and there is no line. no 'now it's not...and now it is!' moment.
it's a progression towards. each day becoming moreso.

rewind a few posts. it's been quite real for me.
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Originally Posted by Wobnoid View Post
It is what a dead one looks like and I still believe in things like star trek. Human fetuses are radioactive. We should all be fucking aware of what they are.

Discuss. I'll be back when I'm wrong.
i saw alien when i was pregnant.
nuff said.
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:19 AM   #46
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if i pull a hair out,
it's a human hair.

you're being a moron
You conveniently isolated the word "human".

Answer the question as it was asked.
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"The healthy man does not torture others - generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers." -- Carl Jung

One need not be a chamber to be haunted,
One need not be a house;
The brain has corridors surpassing
Material place.[...] --Emily Dickinson

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand." -- Albert Einstein

"I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." -- Robert A. Heinlein
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:24 AM   #47
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You conveniently isolated the word "human".

Answer the question as it was asked.
stop being a moron.
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:27 AM   #48
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stop being a moron.
I think you think I'm getting at something that I'm not getting at.
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"Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." --Samuel Clemens

"The healthy man does not torture others - generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers." -- Carl Jung

One need not be a chamber to be haunted,
One need not be a house;
The brain has corridors surpassing
Material place.[...] --Emily Dickinson

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand." -- Albert Einstein

"I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." -- Robert A. Heinlein
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:29 AM   #49
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I think you think I'm getting at something that I'm not getting at.
no, i just think you're being a moron
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Old 10-15-2011, 01:30 AM   #50
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no, i just think you're being a moron
Is your logic subroutine stuck in a feedback loop?
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"Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect." --Samuel Clemens

"The healthy man does not torture others - generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers." -- Carl Jung

One need not be a chamber to be haunted,
One need not be a house;
The brain has corridors surpassing
Material place.[...] --Emily Dickinson

"Imagination is more important than knowledge. For knowledge is limited to all we now know and understand, while imagination embraces the entire world, and all there ever will be to know and understand." -- Albert Einstein

"I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do. I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do." -- Robert A. Heinlein
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