"Subspace" & Ownership

One of the things I've noticed over at Fet, is that people seem awfully hung up on "subspace"...

On one hand, it's like it's this ultimate goal, gold star, sparkly princess crown "OMGhowdoIgetthereIwannaknowtellemtellmetellme!!!????" Holy Grail of Kinkdom.

On the other hand, I have seen more than one discussion of "Well, I wasn't really okay with what was going on, but I was just flying so high in subspace I couldn't bring myself to safeword/stop things/say no and that blankity-blank took advantage of me in my delicate state!"

In the former situation, I rarely see anyone pointing out that as awesome and yummy as "subspace" can be, there are pros and cons to it - and figuring out how to deal with the cons is part of "subspace"/dealing with your kinks in a mature fashion. In the latter, pointing out that being in "subspace" doesn't absolve one of personal responsibility... tends to go over like a "How dare you blame the victim! You bastard!" lead balloon.

Figuring out how to deal with the cons of "subspace" is a process, and often a trial by fire. Sometimes one has to hit it ["subspace"] to discover they aren't as vocal as ideal. Sometimes one has to get "triggered", in order to discover that certain acts make it dammed hard to say no* (or safeword) - a situation which is often blamed on "subspace".

So... what is one's personal responsibility [PYL or pyl] when dealing with "subspace"?











*This does piggyback on a pet peeve of mine, which is how utterly worthless a pyl's "yes" is [IMO], if he or she is incapable of saying "no."

I am NOT going to blame one gender more than another but.

When people figure out there is an advantage that is just begging to be taken, it's damn hard not to take it.

Ohhh...I "love" your pet peeve, and we actually share that one.

Anyway, as far as subspace goes, I have never seen it as being the Holy Grail of Kinkdom...at least not in the sense of how many describe it. I am a maso, I like to feel pain/sensation/whateveryouwannacall it. When I get to that "place" where I am no longer actively feeling, there is no point for me. It's time to change the activity, or stop. No matter what though, I am responsible for my actions.

I am going to make a sweeping generalization and say that most of the pyl's that you see blaming subspace for lack of safewording etc, are inexperienced in the lifestyle. They are more caught up in how things are "supposed to be" rather than how things are. After a scene, when looking back, they feel guilty or ashamed and try to put the blame anywhere and on anything but themselves. This is also when you see a lot of "big bad Dom" finger pointing. I think that the longer you are in this lifestyle and the more you experience, you begin to realize that you are solely responsible for your own actions. no matter what side of the whip you are on.

CutieMouse said:

One of the things I've noticed over at Fet, is that people seem awfully hung up on "subspace"...

On one hand, it's like it's this ultimate goal, gold star, sparkly princess crown "OMGhowdoIgetthereIwannaknowtellemtellmetellme!!!????" Holy Grail of Kinkdom.

On the other hand, I have seen more than one discussion of "Well, I wasn't really okay with what was going on, but I was just flying so high in subspace I couldn't bring myself to safeword/stop things/say no and that blankity-blank took advantage of me in my delicate state!"

In the former situation, I rarely see anyone pointing out that as awesome and yummy as "subspace" can be, there are pros and cons to it - and figuring out how to deal with the cons is part of "subspace"/dealing with your kinks in a mature fashion. In the latter, pointing out that being in "subspace" doesn't absolve one of personal responsibility... tends to go over like a "How dare you blame the victim! You bastard!" lead balloon.

Figuring out how to deal with the cons of "subspace" is a process, and often a trial by fire. Sometimes one has to hit it ["subspace"] to discover they aren't as vocal as ideal. Sometimes one has to get "triggered", in order to discover that certain acts make it dammed hard to say no* (or safeword) - a situation which is often blamed on "subspace".

So... what is one's personal responsibility [PYL or pyl] when dealing with "subspace"?

*This does piggyback on a pet peeve of mine, which is how utterly worthless a pyl's "yes" is [IMO], if he or she is incapable of saying "no."

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As pyl, I use the same guidelines as I would for any other chemically-induced altered state. Knowing that I might "lose" consciousness - or what has, in fact, always been my favorite state - that of being conscious, but unable to respond physically - means that I have to take responsibility for the situations I put myself in.

"sub-space" can be addictive. I used to think acid trips were the way to see God, and started burning my brain cells in that quest. I've thought sub-space could take me there, too, until my immune system started shutting down.

Honestly, I took one look at this world when I was in my early 30's, and walked away from stranger-scenes because I knew I would lose my better judgement.

In the end, I had to stop drinking and doing drugs. And I have had to stop playing because I wasn't behaving responsibly and was putting myself in dangerous situations.

pyl's have to take responsibility for their own actions.

I still struggle with rape cases in which the victim was totally intoxicated. Obviously, consent is the issue. But, if you're in a black-out, you're no longer in any position to consent. The circumstances are set in motion. I know - from being there - that it is very easy to literally invite what you don't want - and I find it hard to cast full blame on any one party.

Because of that, everyone needs to help someone who doesn't know their own limits. But once you've tasted the consequences of your actions, it is on you to avoid placing yourself in danger in the future.

I am going to suggest that chasing that extreme form of subspace should be considered an edge play. it might well be one of the popular edges-- but there needs to be some risk awareness.

Stella_Omega said:

I am NOT going to blame one gender more than another but.

When people figure out there is an advantage that is just begging to be taken, it's damn hard not to take it.

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Agreed. Which is why I tend to be really really really strict [with myself] about certain things. 3 minutes of kissing and I will beg a man to fuck me... so I don't kiss casually. Get a guy balls deep in my ass and I will agree to do *literally* anything he wants me to (and more importantly - in the moment - mean it)... so anal is off the table until I decide I can trust my partner with it.

If I'm intimate with someone, I trust them... but I trust them in degrees, because I recognize the quirk of human nature that makes taking advantage of a situation so very very tempting.

HottieMama said:

Ohhh...I "love" your pet peeve, and we actually share that one.

Anyway, as far as subspace goes, I have never seen it as being the Holy Grail of Kinkdom...at least not in the sense of how many describe it. I am a maso, I like to feel pain/sensation/whateveryouwannacall it. When I get to that "place" where I am no longer actively feeling, there is no point for me. It's time to change the activity, or stop. No matter what though, I am responsible for my actions.

I am going to make a sweeping generalization and say that most of the pyl's that you see blaming subspace for lack of safewording etc, are inexperienced in the lifestyle. They are more caught up in how things are "supposed to be" rather than how things are. After a scene, when looking back, they feel guilty or ashamed and try to put the blame anywhere and on anything but themselves. This is also when you see a lot of "big bad Dom" finger pointing. I think that the longer you are in this lifestyle and the more you experience, you begin to realize that you are solely responsible for your own actions. no matter what side of the whip you are on.

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It often is people who are new to BDSM, but I've also seen it from people who play more casually.

LOL, subspace has never been allowed in this house. He prefers to know that if he is dishing out something, especially pain, I am fully there and feeling every minute of it, not escaping into a realm where I am basically not interested in what works for him but more so what gets me there. I also think subspace is the new fake orgasm for many pyl's who feel intimidated if they have not experienced it. It isn't a holy grail IMO. Just remembered the thread from way back on Slavespace which I think works for some where subspace does not.

Catalina

If subspace is altering the mind, I don't think it should be treated any differently than any other mind altering substance. The pyl is ultimately responsible for their own safety, but a PYL must respect the wishes of the pyl regarding subspace...even if the pyl suddenly becomes super willing once they are there.

I'm sure there are very trusting relationships out there that would be an exception...but I think it's a bad idea to operate based on exceptions.

catalina_francisco said:

LOL, subspace has never been allowed in this house. He prefers to know that if he is dishing out something, especially pain, I am fully there and feeling every minute of it, not escaping into a realm where I am basically not interested in what works for him but more so what gets me there. I also think subspace is the new fake orgasm for many pyl's who feel intimidated if they have not experienced it. It isn't a holy grail IMO. Just remembered the thread from way back on Slavespace which I think works for some where subspace does not.

Catalina

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Fascinating thread, Catalina. Thank you for bringing it back.

I don't like the word "subspace" that much because, as others have suggested, the word seems to carry with it all this mystical magical connotation when it's really just a chemical reaction.

I've had some really intense reactions before, but I think most of my casual play hasn't resulted in me being all ready to do whatever the PYL asks. Not sure why, maybe because I've mostly played with people that I have a little emotional distance with -- or maybe I put up that distance from the beginning. Not sure. A good scene usually leaves me flying and feeling really good, but not like I am completely in the other person's pocket. Oh! I got it. It's because I'm not fucking them, right? Ha ha. Yeah, just realized that. Missing an important part of the cocktail.

With Mister Man, I do feel a certain responsibility to be in the moment and speak up if something might be a bad idea. Like sex after childbirth. EEEEEK I was so freaked out. I still don't quite get why. My husband has a great cock, but last time I checked it doesn't weigh 9 fucking pounds. Our first few fucks were really kind of funny - I was so panicked. Nice if you like fear play though.

Ahem, what was the question? Sorry, I got a little off track there. Yes, as a pyl you should keep your head in the game or pick someone with whom it's safe to totally lose it. Ahem. Carry on.

I don't play casually. I play with one person and person only. I don't even know for sure if I have ever felt subspace the way some people describe it. I occasionally will reach the point of complete surrender where my body and mind no longer tries to be strong. I do feel extremely vulnerable. But I am always safely with Daddy, so it's all good.

Even in that state though I am able to say what I need. Whether it be a drink of water, a cuddle, or for him to loosen a tie around my wrist.

I would never put myself in the position to be in that state of mine with someone I didn't trust to not injure me. It is ultimately my responsibility to keep myself safe, no matter what state of mind I am in.

Upon thinking about this further, I realized something. With the last person I played with, I had an "odd" reaction....as in odd for me. When telling a close pyl friend about this, the first thing out of her mouth was "That's subspace." Ummm....if it is, then I do not want to go there again. I much prefer being aware and conscious of my emotions/feelings. Then again, I "came into" this life as a person who played very casually with different people at some very intense things. It served me much better to remain "aware" at all times. If this last session was any indicator, it still serves me better.

CutieMouse said:

One of the things I've noticed over at Fet, is that people seem awfully hung up on "subspace"...

On one hand, it's like it's this ultimate goal, gold star, sparkly princess crown "OMGhowdoIgetthereIwannaknowtellemtellmetellme!!!????" Holy Grail of Kinkdom.

On the other hand, I have seen more than one discussion of "Well, I wasn't really okay with what was going on, but I was just flying so high in subspace I couldn't bring myself to safeword/stop things/say no and that blankity-blank took advantage of me in my delicate state!"

In the former situation, I rarely see anyone pointing out that as awesome and yummy as "subspace" can be, there are pros and cons to it - and figuring out how to deal with the cons is part of "subspace"/dealing with your kinks in a mature fashion. In the latter, pointing out that being in "subspace" doesn't absolve one of personal responsibility... tends to go over like a "How dare you blame the victim! You bastard!" lead balloon.

Figuring out how to deal with the cons of "subspace" is a process, and often a trial by fire. Sometimes one has to hit it ["subspace"] to discover they aren't as vocal as ideal. Sometimes one has to get "triggered", in order to discover that certain acts make it dammed hard to say no* (or safeword) - a situation which is often blamed on "subspace".

So... what is one's personal responsibility [PYL or pyl] when dealing with "subspace"?


*This does piggyback on a pet peeve of mine, which is how utterly worthless a pyl's "yes" is [IMO], if he or she is incapable of saying "no."

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I love it when I hit subspace and yes I am very aware that I can be irresponsible with my own safety or behaviour when I am in subspace.I am one of those who loses all ability to safe Word. So I use a simple solution: I either only play in situations with people who are aware of my problem and I can trust to know when to stop or as an alternative if I'm playing with someone new I take a living safe word with me (someone not involved in play who is able to make a judgement call). Because while I may be irresponsible during the period when I am in subspace it is always my responsibility because I know what I am likely to do. If I am silly enough not to make appropriate preparationsand precautions then whatever happens is my own damn fault. I have to say that I have been stupid on occasion(living safe word was out of town and I was too Fucking greedy to wait) and the resulting injuries are my own fault and nobody else's.
All that being said there can be occurrences where I have been playing with a new submissive who hadn't ever experienced subspace before and when I noticed how deeply into play they were suddenly willing to go I backed off and cooled out until I could be sure that that's precisely what they wanted. I am very glad that I did because they were totally unaware of just how far they were going. It is definitely important that a dominant be aware as much as possible of the state of their submissive particularly with a newbe.Even subspace demands the use of common sense no matter how bloody wonderful it is.

When I have in the past been with Master and I go into "subspace" as you call it, I consider this more to be a kind of surrender. However, even in that mode, I am still responsible for my own actions, I have vocalized to him what I needed or thought was going to far. I'm not a masochist and believe me I will vocalize if I experience pain that is to much for me to bear. I am keenly aware of what is going on around me and what Master is doing when I am in this phase of existence with him. He is also aware to read my body and what vocalizations I say as well so that he knows what I'm trying to convey. One thing we have done before we get into any kind of play is to also discuss what we want to do. That way there are no surprises.

Getting to this so called "subspace" is not the ultimate holy grail of submission in my book. Being able to serve my Master and please him to me is the ultimate goal. If I manage to get to that plane of surrender while I am with him it just makes it that much more special, but it is not something I feel I must have. The true ultimate pleasure comes from making him Happy in my service to him. Making your Dominant happy is to me the "holy grail," not Subspace.

Your Mileage May vary of course as everyone is different in their relationships.

Well, the Sadist does not like it if I'm not suffering, so I'm kept from falling into any state where I do not feel the pain fully.

That being said, the mental state where I cannot deny anything does not necessarily coincide with subspace.

I too have discovered that there are activities (such as indeed anal) that quickly throw me in a mental state that makes it hard/impossible for me to deny anything. Knowing those triggers allows me to plan around them and keep myself from been taken advantage of.

And the best way is indeed to avoid getting intimate with people I don't know well enough to trust.

Avoiding putting oneself in danger's arms is indeed the pyl (and PYL) responsibility.

While subspace is nice, my pet peeve is people for whom it's the holy grail of sex and play. But that's another side point.

I've only every played with K, so I can't talk of casual play, but I do know when I'm spacing you aren't getting anything more than a yes or no out of me, and then only if asked direct questions. I'm one of the quiet ones. Because of this I would NEVER play with someone I don't trust A LOT, because I'm not sure I'd be able to safe word while I'm spacing. I'd have to trust that they know my limits and will not go past them, which K never has.

On the other hand, if I were to play with someone who took advantage of my spacing I would never play with them again, and there would be hell to pay when I got back in my right head space.

For me, "subspace" is a mental state of haziness and slowness. It's an idyllic, almost dream-like state. It has nothing to do with my ability to say no - but I consider my relationship currently on the M/s side of things, so I don't usually say no anyway. It's not about that though...I think of subspace as a good thing, not a thing where I lose my faculties in a harmful way. It's like this totally awesome "wow I've just been fucked/beaten/humiliated" bleary haze. I like it.

I never got into subspace before. Then we broke up for 3 years. Now that we're back together, it seems to happen often.

[OT]

Etoile said:

*snip*
we're back together
*snip.

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CONGRATULATION!!!

[/OT]

Awwww, thank you rida!! {{hugs}}

I could come across as silly, or naive for saying this, but what are the fundamental differences between subspace and someone just lying there in a blissful/trancelike state after some wonderful, mindblowing vanilla sex?

I think for me and my partner, she may have fallen into "subspace" a number of times, but I think the main reason for this wouldn't be down to anything we have done, but the trust and love we have between us. If it wasn't for that, then it probably wouldn't have happened.

CutieMouse said:

One of the things I've noticed over at Fet

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Why don't you discuss those things there?

intothewoods said:

I don't like the word "subspace" that much because, as others have suggested, the word seems to carry with it all this mystical magical connotation when it's really just a chemical reaction.

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Yes. One that has jack all to do with submission, also. See also: jogging, cutting, religious flagellation.

I'm not sure that one can yank people in and out of it as easily as a lot of people want to believe, either. We go into shock to protect our bodies when in pain and this is a kind of toying with shock. Different people will shock at different rates and to different amounts. To my constant enjoyment.

The sooner people call it what it is, which is "endorphin high" the better.

I'm one of those pain in the ass people who believes adults are responsible for themselves, so if you know you go non-verbal you should be doing your best to keep that from becoming your top's problem.

Primalex said:

Why don't you discuss those things there?

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Because (IMO) Fet is a fabulously fishbowly sociological train wreck where I can't have even semi-logical conversations like I sometimes can here?

CutieMouse said:

Because (IMO) Fet is a fabulously fishbowly sociological train wreck where I can't have even semi-logical conversations like I sometimes can here?

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So you drag the train wreck here?

Netzach said:

The sooner people call it what it is, which is "endorphin high" the better.

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That explains a lot. I knew it was a neuro reaction, but didn't get the specifics. Thanks!