Serious Discussion: The Mental Health of Submissives

This is a serious discussion. I am not trying to insult, offend, or antagonize any member here or anyone a member might know. In fact, I am writing this in a sense to get some help and perspective. I am beginning to suspect that this sort of lifestyle is too destructive to engage in, and I should like some insight that might help me avoid this conclusion, even though I am not likely to do anything against it even if I do think it is destructive.

With that caveat made, let me begin:

Are a significant portion of submissives mentally unhealthy?

I ask this question because I have come upon many, many submissives, both personally (friendships, relationships) and impersonally (forums, chats) that admit to behaviour that is shockingly self-destructive. Whether this means physical harm, thoughts/attempts/successes of suicide, or complete emotional instability and self hatred, I have found a consistent trend that the majority of subs have something profoundly wrong with them. In fact, it seems that most subs are one, or at least a few, steps away from falling off the deep end.

I don't know much in the way of male subs, as my experience is primarily with female subs personally. But from what I can tell from male subs, they do not appear very healthy, either.

If this is true, what might be done about it? Is there a way to mitigate the bad effects, while retaining the submissiveness? Or is it just part and parcel of the psychological makeup that would make someone seek pain, humiliation, and fear as a form of pleasure? Is there a way for a person to not be horribly sad and ruined inside, and yet still be submissive? I am seriously concerned, not just for those I know, but those in general. Of course, mostly for those I know - as those I am dealing with personally and are most valuable to me.

Also, is it possible that doms are also sick? I realize, as a sadist, that I might simply be part of the mentally unhealthy that hurt others, rather than myself.

What can be done? Am I quite off the mark?

Ballsy first post to the forum.

I would argue that there are a significant number of mentally unhealthy people in the world, period - not just in the BDSM realm. [depression, co-dependence, borderline personality disorder, etc] I also believe those unhealthy issues are just as likely to show up on both sides of the PYL/pyl* coin.

It is possible that pyl types could be drawn to BDSM because [for them] it continues unhealthy relationship dynamics learned through abusive past relationships. It is just as possible that PYL types could be drawn to BDSM because it gives them permission to continue their own abusive behaviour. There are a lot of things done in the BDSM realm that society as a whole would define as abusive; however, if the persons engaging in said SSC/RACK "abuse" come out the other side happy, whole and fulfilled, what's the problem?

Honestly, I'm more concerned about the poor saps who get sucked into BDSM drama hell than anything else. Okay, maybe not *more* concerned, but just as concerned as I am about those submissive repeating unhealthy/abusive relationship dynamics overandoverandover again. In some ways I do wonder if BDSM enables people to not face their shit and be grown men an women; if the theoretical BS of this whole "lifestyle" gives people an excuse to not be responsible for their lives.

My solution would be a long term pipe dream - each person choosing a BDSM based relationship dynamic accepts personal the responsibility to educate themselves about healthy relationship dynamics, and how to recognize unhealthy patterns of behaviour. Set standards. Do not play with, or enter relationships with people who do not meet those basic standards [of healthy relationship dynamics]. Eventually, a century or three from now, all the drama-lama, mentally unstable, incapable of owning their shit people will be self-selected out of the BDSM gene pool and/or the BDSM types will have developed a finer tuned crazy-meter and better recognize whom to avoid.

Cold hearted? Hell yes. But I did my time [in therapy], paid my dues, learned to recognize train wrecks, and am a better woman (and submissive) for it.

*PYL = Pick Your Label (Top, Dominant, Master)
*pyl = pick your label (bottom, submissive, slave)

I'm a submissive, and I do not seek "pain, humiliation and fear". I'm only a little bit masochistic, humiliation is a very hard limit, and I do not submit out of fear but rather a desire to please and be pleasing to my Dominant.

Submissiveness has always been a part of my personality and I've never been happier than I have been in the last 7 years since Sir and I began our relationship. My 23 year vanilla first marriage was a hell of a lot more unhealthy than my 4 year second one is. The only possible mental health issue I have had has been post partum depression and the depression caused by that abusive first marriage.

Sir and I make each other happy. If that includes a bit of spanking and hair pulling and bondage, then who is it hurting? (excuse the pun )

Are a significant portion of submissives mentally unhealthy?

Click to expand...

For any given definition of mental health, the entirety of HUMANS the human race is not 'mentally healthy'. Don't focus on ideals of mental health (because it's disturbing and complicated), but instead to look at whether people FUNCTION in a way they are largely happy with. Sure, if your activities include behaviour like <INSERT BEHAVIOUR HERE> then you could well see a terrified and anxious person.

I am beginning to suspect that this sort of lifestyle is too destructive to engage in, and I should like some insight that might help me avoid this conclusion, even though I am not likely to do anything against it even if I do think it is destructive.

Click to expand...

There is no lifestyle. There is NO lifestyle. There is only you and your choices and reactions, plus the choices and reactions of others.

I ask this question because I have come upon many, many submissives, both personally (friendships, relationships) and impersonally (forums, chats) that admit to behaviour that is shockingly self-destructive. Whether this means physical harm, thoughts/attempts/successes of suicide, or complete emotional instability and self hatred, I have found a consistent trend that the majority of subs have something profoundly wrong with them. In fact, it seems that most subs are one, or at least a few, steps away from falling off the deep end.

Click to expand...

I'm sad to hear about the suicides - it is just indescribable to experience that. Again, 'profoundly wrong' is not indicative of submissive people in general. I also think, are these self-sufficient human beings?

I don't know much in the way of male subs, as my experience is primarily with female subs personally. But from what I can tell from male subs, they do not appear very healthy, either.

Click to expand...

Is your experience from bars and sketchy clubs, or relationships? Sure, m-subs can seem like the most annoying queen bitches of all the world, but there are plenty of humans that function.

f this is true, what might be done about it? Is there a way to mitigate the bad effects, while retaining the submissiveness? Or is it just part and parcel of the psychological makeup that would make someone seek pain, humiliation, and fear as a form of pleasure?

Click to expand...

Again, there is no submissiveness. Your mileage may vary. Do you like to dish out 'pain, humiliation and fear'? What about pain+affection?

Is there a way for a person to not be horribly sad and ruined inside, and yet still be submissive? I am seriously concerned, not just for those I know, but those in general. Of course, mostly for those I know - as those I am dealing with personally and are most valuable to me.

Click to expand...

It's not a pre-requisite, end of story.

Also, is it possible that doms are also sick? I realize, as a sadist, that I might simply be part of the mentally unhealthy that hurt others, rather than myself.
What can be done? Am I quite off the mark?

Click to expand...

Of course there's shitheads around. It's likely that since you have this doubt and these questions, that you are not a shithead, if that is a consolation. Having mental illness (or being around the situation) can be fucking devastating. All you can do is endure, make changes and move on.

CutieMouse said:

Ballsy first post to the forum.

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Thanks?

I would argue that there are a significant number of mentally unhealthy people in the world, period - not just in the BDSM realm. [depression, co-dependence, borderline personality disorder, etc] I also believe those unhealthy issues are just as likely to show up on both sides of the PYL/pyl* coin.

It is possible that pyl types could be drawn to BDSM because [for them] it continues unhealthy relationship dynamics learned through abusive past relationships. It is just as possible that PYL types could be drawn to BDSM because it gives them permission to continue their own abusive behaviour. There are a lot of things done in the BDSM realm that society as a whole would define as abusive; however, if the persons engaging in said SSC/RACK "abuse" come out the other side happy, whole and fulfilled, what's the problem?

Click to expand...

I quite agree that there is no problem if the person does come out happy, whole, and fulfilled. The problem is that I am beginning to suspect this isn't the case in general.

Honestly, I'm more concerned about the poor saps who get sucked into BDSM drama hell than anything else. Okay, maybe not *more* concerned, but just as concerned as I am about those submissive repeating unhealthy/abusive relationship dynamics overandoverandover again. In some ways I do wonder if BDSM enables people to not face their shit and be grown men an women; if the theoretical BS of this whole "lifestyle" gives people an excuse to not be responsible for their lives.

My solution would be a long term pipe dream - each person choosing a BDSM based relationship dynamic accepts personal the responsibility to educate themselves about healthy relationship dynamics, and how to recognize unhealthy patterns of behaviour. Set standards. Do not play with, or enter relationships with people who do not meet those basic standards [of healthy relationship dynamics]. Eventually, a century or three from now, all the drama-lama, mentally unstable, incapable of owning their shit people will be self-selected out of the BDSM gene pool and/or the BDSM types will have developed a finer tuned crazy-meter and better recognize whom to avoid.

Cold hearted? Hell yes. But I did my time [in therapy], paid my dues, learned to recognize train wrecks, and am a better woman (and submissive) for it.

Click to expand...

So, you would suggest that people try to recognize healthy relationship dynamics no matter what? Two things:

First: This seems hard to mesh in with the dom-sub dynamic, specifically because one side of that relationship is going to be, more or less, utterly subordinate to the other. I find it hard to imagine someone having a "healthy relationship dynamic" and being part of a DS thing. What would you do with it?

Bandit58 said:

I'm a submissive, and I do not seek "pain, humiliation and fear". I'm only a little bit masochistic, humiliation is a very hard limit, and I do not submit out of fear but rather a desire to please and be pleasing to my Dominant.

Submissiveness has always been a part of my personality and I've never been happier than I have been in the last 7 years since Sir and I began our relationship. My 23 year vanilla first marriage was a hell of a lot more unhealthy than my 4 year second one is. The only possible mental health issue I have had has been post partum depression and the depression caused by that abusive first marriage.

Sir and I make each other happy. If that includes a bit of spanking and hair pulling and bondage, then who is it hurting? (excuse the pun )

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I am glad you're happy and fulfilled. You could you elaborate on the dynamics of your relationship and why you feel the need to be submissive?

ImOnIt said:

For any given definition of mental health, the entirety of HUMANS the human race is not 'mentally healthy'. Don't focus on ideals of mental health (because it's disturbing and complicated), but instead to look at whether people FUNCTION in a way they are largely happy with. Sure, if your activities include behaviour like <INSERT BEHAVIOUR HERE> then you could well see a terrified and anxious person.

Click to expand...

I don't mean this offensively, but that just seems like an excuse for people to be screwed up. I would say the majority of people aren't facing extreme mental problems and that certain people might indeed gravitate towards certain things. The ideals of mental health are not unreasonable ideals and when people fail to meet them, they usually are suffering. That tends to be bad.

There is no lifestyle. There is NO lifestyle. There is only you and your choices and reactions, plus the choices and reactions of others.

Click to expand...

I am speaking in broad terms.

I'm sad to hear about the suicides - it is just indescribable to experience that. Again, 'profoundly wrong' is not indicative of submissive people in general. I also think, are these self-sufficient human beings?

Click to expand...

Define "self-sufficient"?

Is your experience from bars and sketchy clubs, or relationships? Sure, m-subs can seem like the most annoying queen bitches of all the world, but there are plenty of humans that function.

Click to expand...

Meaningful relationships and friendships. I don't do the bar scene.

Again, there is no submissiveness. Your mileage may vary. Do you like to dish out 'pain, humiliation and fear'? What about pain+affection?

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Yes. I like to dish out pain, humiliation, and fear. I find all these things extremely pleasing to inflict upon other people. Also affection, too, but I will not quibble with the fact that I like to be abusive on many different levels, and it fulfills me emotionally and sexually.

It's not a pre-requisite, end of story.

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I hope not.

Of course there's shitheads around. It's likely that since you have this doubt and these questions, that you are not a shithead, if that is a consolation. Having mental illness (or being around the situation) can be fucking devastating. All you can do is endure, make changes and move on.

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I appreciate your input. I look forward to your answers.

Thanks to the others, too.

.... Okay, I'll bite. Even tho this is a trigger-topic for me, I'll try my best not to be rude.

First: I completely disagree with the notion that there are more mentally-ill submissives then doms, or non-kinksters, etc etc. In *any* subset of humanity there will be a significant number of mental health problems. I work in a government agency, and you'd be surprised how many people there have mental health issues.

TheGrenadier said:

So, you would suggest that people try to recognize healthy relationship dynamics no matter what? Two things:

First: This seems hard to mesh in with the dom-sub dynamic, specifically because one side of that relationship is going to be, more or less, utterly subordinate to the other. I find it hard to imagine someone having a "healthy relationship dynamic" and being part of a DS thing. What would you do with it?

Click to expand...

*ANY* healthy relationship, bdsm-related or not, is going to be honest and positive and open. DS does not mean blindly following crazy rules or having to shut up about things that concern your well-being. If that's what is going on, that's not DS, that's abuse.

Anyone in a power-exchange relationship should feel able to communicate with their partner about serious issues, about their well-being, and ask for changes in the bdsm-parts of the relationship if it's needed. If you think that being in a DS relationship means the person must give up all rights... Well, then you are part of the problem.

I don't mean this offensively, but that just seems like an excuse for people to be screwed up. I would say the majority of people aren't facing extreme mental problems and that certain people might indeed gravitate towards certain things. The ideals of mental health are not unreasonable ideals and when people fail to meet them, they usually are suffering. That tends to be bad.

Click to expand...

There are many, many different "degrees" of mental health. Would you say that someone who is schizophrenic is "suffering" and unable to be in a healthy relationship, whether bdsm-related or not? I wouldn't. I know more then a few schizophrenics who lead fairly regular lives, and I think they would find it insulting if someone said they were "suffering".

I'm sure that many submissives *do* have some sort of mental illness, but that does not mean that many submissives *suffer* from mental illness. Having a mental illness in general does not mean you are incompetent or at risk of engaging in harmful behavior. That's one of the stereotypes that us in the mental health profession try very hard to dispel. I'm bipolar; Does that mean that I am at more risk for an unhealthy relationship then my "normal" friends? Nope, not at all. Does my bipolar mean that my "normal" friends are more likely to have healthy, happy relationships then me? Nope, not at all.

Probably, 1 in 5 people in the general population have some kind of mental issue, so one would expect this to extend to the submissive subgroup.

However the majority of those people can lead functional lives.

An external locus of control is often associated with self destructive behavior; however do submissive in general have an external locus of control I don’t know.

Doms could generally also have similar issues.

The next step for someone with problems they cannot handle themselves is to seek professional assistance.

TheGrenadier said:

I am glad you're happy and fulfilled. You could you elaborate on the dynamics of your relationship and why you feel the need to be submissive?

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I guess you could say there's more service than kink

I am Sir's full time carer. He has many health issues not least of which are diabetes (Type 1, for 37 years, and quite brittle) and end stage renal failure for which He does home haemodialysis for 8 hours for a minimum of 3 days a week. I am chief machine setter-upper and I also have to cannulate Him (put His needles in) because His access is on the back of His forearm and He can't see to do it (arthritic shoulders as well).

I'm also chief cook, cleaner, medicine disher-outer, bill payer, grocery buyer, and anything else that needs doing. We work as a team to ensure that His health is as good as it can be.

The need to be submissive? It's not a NEED, it's just a part of me. When I worked, I was much happier being told what to do and when to do it than I was being in charge of anything. My sexual fantasies more often than not involved being tied up and controlled. However it's ironic that I am now a lot more assertive than I used to be, especially when it comes to Sir's health

TheGrenadier said:

Thanks?

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You're welcome.

I quite agree that there is no problem if the person does come out happy, whole, and fulfilled. The problem is that I am beginning to suspect this isn't the case in general.

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And in response I would say there are a hell of a lot of people who are in relationships that leave them miserable, emotionally scarred, and unfulfilled - kinky or not. Why single out people into BDSM?

So, you would suggest that people try to recognize healthy relationship dynamics no matter what? Two things:

First: This seems hard to mesh in with the dom-sub dynamic, specifically because one side of that relationship is going to be, more or less, utterly subordinate to the other. I find it hard to imagine someone having a "healthy relationship dynamic" and being part of a DS thing. What would you do with it?

Click to expand...

Umm... be happy?

I am not, and never will be "subordinate" to my lover just because he happens to identify as dominant. I am no more and no less than he; I am simply the opposite side of the same coin. Dominants need submissives [to be happy] ust as much as submissives need dominants [to be happy]... similarly to how masochists need sadists and sadists need masochists [to be happy].

I identify (when pressed) as a submissive woman. My proclivities wander down the path of mindfucks, 'humiliation', objectification, mild to moderate masochism, being a f*ck-toy, Pygmalion type relationships... upon choosing to enter a relationship, I remove the word "no" from my vocabulary [with regards to my lover]. By your theory, I'm guessing you find it contradictory for someone like me to have a "healthy" D/s relationship.

However, I am very picky about my lovers [dominant] because my emotional, mental, and physical well being are incredibly important to me. I do not enter relationships to skate through life; I enter them with the intent to thrive and grow as a person [and couple]. My lovers have to have a high emotional IQ, a high intellectual IQ, and excellent communication skills. I retain the right to communicate freely, and refuse to take on a lover who would expect otherwise; I will not take on a man as a lover, unless I first consider him a friend. I know what does and doesn't work for me, and have no problem telling someone we are not compatible - which I usually do long before things develop on an intimate level. Because there is ZERO reason for me to bother getting involved with someone who's fetish list is eleven pages long, when 99% of fetishes bore the hell out of me. LOL

The tl;dr summary - knowing thyself and being comfy in one's skin, makes the whole "healthy D/s relationship" thing a hell of a lot easier.

Before we can even think about what the solution is, we need to think about how to identify the problem. One's abusive relationship is another's match made in heaven. There are things I see others do that I'd never do, but that doesn't mean they're crazy or crazier than I am. BDSM is just so individual that there's no universal rubric (other than SSC and RACK I suppose) to judge what is OK and what is wrong (and presumably mentally unhealthy).

Ideally the individual themself should be able to decide whether he is benefitting from the relationship, but that's rather a catch-22. He may not be able to recognize it if he were truly mentally unhealthy. I agree with CutieMouse's ideal of each person learning what is unhealthy... but pragmatically speaking, how do you even teach that sort of thing? If you put forth something like "If you feel this way or are doing this, then this is wrong", no matter what "this" is, it's almost guaranteed that somewhere someone will jump out and claim that "this" is part of their very normal and very healthy relationship.

I'm tired and probably not thinking straight...

One last thing I want to say is, I agree with people's "why just bdsm, why not mental unhealthiness in general" comment. Whether BDSM is more prone to mental illness or not, if we just focus on the problem in general, I don't see why a solution that applies to the vanilla folks won't apply to the bdsm world...

Personally, looking back, I think I can pick out signs etc that I was submissive.

For the longest time, until I worked out what that actually was, I couldn't reconcile myself with the world, and that made me rather unhealthy, mentally and physically.

Embracing my submissive side, and engaging in a D/s relationship has given me a safe place to deal with that stuff, and I'm all the much better for it.

TheGrenadier said:

I quite agree that there is no problem if the person does come out happy, whole, and fulfilled. The problem is that I am beginning to suspect this isn't the case in general.

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Would you care to cite your evidence? Only empirically proven scientific evidence (of course) because as you obviously aren't involved in the lifestyle or community you can hardly speak from experience, not that it would matter; any good scientist (especially psychologists and psychiatrists) will tell you that anecdotal evidence is the worst and most inaccurate sort.

marieR19 said:

.... Okay, I'll bite. Even tho this is a trigger-topic for me, I'll try my best not to be rude.

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Again, I'm not trying to be offensive. So I hope we can discuss matters nicely.

First: I completely disagree with the notion that there are more mentally-ill submissives then doms, or non-kinksters, etc etc. In *any* subset of humanity there will be a significant number of mental health problems. I work in a government agency, and you'd be surprised how many people there have mental health issues.

Click to expand...

I'm sure there are plenty of mentally ill people out there, but I find it hard to believe that certain subsets of people aren't going to be more prone for it, just as other subsets of people draw a specific type more than others. It is not coincidental, for instance, that football players are made up of guys who look like football players.

*ANY* healthy relationship, bdsm-related or not, is going to be honest and positive and open. DS does not mean blindly following crazy rules or having to shut up about things that concern your well-being. If that's what is going on, that's not DS, that's abuse.

Anyone in a power-exchange relationship should feel able to communicate with their partner about serious issues, about their well-being, and ask for changes in the bdsm-parts of the relationship if it's needed. If you think that being in a DS relationship means the person must give up all rights... Well, then you are part of the problem.

Click to expand...

I don't know about "all rights". You do have to be quite reasonable with a submissive, but the entire point of submission is to submit. That is to say, to give power to another wholly. If you aren't doing that, that isn't submission by my reckoning.

There are many, many different "degrees" of mental health. Would you say that someone who is schizophrenic is "suffering" and unable to be in a healthy relationship, whether bdsm-related or not? I wouldn't. I know more then a few schizophrenics who lead fairly regular lives, and I think they would find it insulting if someone said they were "suffering".

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The schizophrenics I have known have demonstrated a marked degree of madness that I would not associate with healthy anything. I'm marvelled they can function at all.

I'm sure that many submissives *do* have some sort of mental illness, but that does not mean that many submissives *suffer* from mental illness. Having a mental illness in general does not mean you are incompetent or at risk of engaging in harmful behavior. That's one of the stereotypes that us in the mental health profession try very hard to dispel. I'm bipolar; Does that mean that I am at more risk for an unhealthy relationship then my "normal" friends? Nope, not at all. Does my bipolar mean that my "normal" friends are more likely to have healthy, happy relationships then me? Nope, not at all.

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I find that hard to believe. If you are, in fact, bi-polar it means your very life has episodes where you deal with incredible mental suffering of two types, manic and depressive. I can't understand how that can't be a MAJOR impediment to a healthy relationship.

YourCaptor said:

Probably, 1 in 5 people in the general population have some kind of mental issue, so one would expect this to extend to the submissive subgroup.

However the majority of those people can lead functional lives.

An external locus of control is often associated with self destructive behavior; however do submissive in general have an external locus of control I don’t know.

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Don't they? The dom is this external locus.

Doms could generally also have similar issues.

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I'd imagine in reverse.

The next step for someone with problems they cannot handle themselves is to seek professional assistance.

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Possibly, yes.

Bandit58 said:

I guess you could say there's more service than kink

I am Sir's full time carer. He has many health issues not least of which are diabetes (Type 1, for 37 years, and quite brittle) and end stage renal failure for which He does home haemodialysis for 8 hours for a minimum of 3 days a week. I am chief machine setter-upper and I also have to cannulate Him (put His needles in) because His access is on the back of His forearm and He can't see to do it (arthritic shoulders as well).

I'm also chief cook, cleaner, medicine disher-outer, bill payer, grocery buyer, and anything else that needs doing. We work as a team to ensure that His health is as good as it can be.

The need to be submissive? It's not a NEED, it's just a part of me. When I worked, I was much happier being told what to do and when to do it than I was being in charge of anything. My sexual fantasies more often than not involved being tied up and controlled. However it's ironic that I am now a lot more assertive than I used to be, especially when it comes to Sir's health

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That's really quite touching. Thanks for sharing.

CutieMouse said:

You're welcome.

And in response I would say there are a hell of a lot of people who are in relationships that leave them miserable, emotionally scarred, and unfulfilled - kinky or not. Why single out people into BDSM?

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Because I'm dealing with that personally.

Umm... be happy?

I am not, and never will be "subordinate" to my lover just because he happens to identify as dominant. I am no more and no less than he; I am simply the opposite side of the same coin. Dominants need submissives [to be happy] ust as much as submissives need dominants [to be happy]... similarly to how masochists need sadists and sadists need masochists [to be happy].

Click to expand...

I agree the happiness is important, but I don't understand how a "submissive" cannot be subordinate. In what sense?

I identify (when pressed) as a submissive woman. My proclivities wander down the path of mindfucks, 'humiliation', objectification, mild to moderate masochism, being a f*ck-toy, Pygmalion type relationships... upon choosing to enter a relationship, I remove the word "no" from my vocabulary [with regards to my lover]. By your theory, I'm guessing you find it contradictory for someone like me to have a "healthy" D/s relationship.

Click to expand...

Mostly yes, because the term "healthy" seems to always mean "egalatarian" or something of the sort. I am having a hard time deciding what everyone here means by "healthy" and finding it hard to adapt it to DS stuff.

You seem to have quite a good relationship of a DS type, though.

However, I am very picky about my lovers [dominant] because my emotional, mental, and physical well being are incredibly important to me. I do not enter relationships to skate through life; I enter them with the intent to thrive and grow as a person [and couple]. My lovers have to have a high emotional IQ, a high intellectual IQ, and excellent communication skills. I retain the right to communicate freely, and refuse to take on a lover who would expect otherwise; I will not take on a man as a lover, unless I first consider him a friend. I know what does and doesn't work for me, and have no problem telling someone we are not compatible - which I usually do long before things develop on an intimate level. Because there is ZERO reason for me to bother getting involved with someone who's fetish list is eleven pages long, when 99% of fetishes bore the hell out of me. LOL

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Fairly prudent. I agree.

The tl;dr summary - knowing thyself and being comfy in one's skin, makes the whole "healthy D/s relationship" thing a hell of a lot easier.

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Interesting. Thanks fo ryour input.

welkin said:

Before we can even think about what the solution is, we need to think about how to identify the problem. One's abusive relationship is another's match made in heaven. There are things I see others do that I'd never do, but that doesn't mean they're crazy or crazier than I am. BDSM is just so individual that there's no universal rubric (other than SSC and RACK I suppose) to judge what is OK and what is wrong (and presumably mentally unhealthy).

Ideally the individual themself should be able to decide whether he is benefitting from the relationship, but that's rather a catch-22. He may not be able to recognize it if he were truly mentally unhealthy. I agree with CutieMouse's ideal of each person learning what is unhealthy... but pragmatically speaking, how do you even teach that sort of thing? If you put forth something like "If you feel this way or are doing this, then this is wrong", no matter what "this" is, it's almost guaranteed that somewhere someone will jump out and claim that "this" is part of their very normal and very healthy relationship.

I'm tired and probably not thinking straight...

One last thing I want to say is, I agree with people's "why just bdsm, why not mental unhealthiness in general" comment. Whether BDSM is more prone to mental illness or not, if we just focus on the problem in general, I don't see why a solution that applies to the vanilla folks won't apply to the bdsm world...

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Hmmm. Thanks for your input.

Lizzie_Borden said:

Personally, looking back, I think I can pick out signs etc that I was submissive.

For the longest time, until I worked out what that actually was, I couldn't reconcile myself with the world, and that made me rather unhealthy, mentally and physically.

Embracing my submissive side, and engaging in a D/s relationship has given me a safe place to deal with that stuff, and I'm all the much better for it.

Click to expand...

So you feel you have -enhanced- your mental health by being submissive?

MasterandSir said:

Would you care to cite your evidence? Only empirically proven scientific evidence (of course) because as you obviously aren't involved in the lifestyle or community you can hardly speak from experience, not that it would matter; any good scientist (especially psychologists and psychiatrists) will tell you that anecdotal evidence is the worst and most inaccurate sort.

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No, because you're a troll who felt the need to be the first (and only) person so far disrespectful in this thread.

Shoo fly, don't bother me.

TheGrenadier said:

So you feel you have -enhanced- your mental health by being submissive?

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Yes. As Popeye says "I yam what I yam" and upon accepting that, and all it entails, I became a better, stronger, happier person. It's not the being submissive part that makes me happy, because that's no different really to the part of me that likes to cook, or likes things to be symmetrical, or likes to swear at th tv when the football is on. It's just part of me. Yes, it's a big part, because it, along with a whole bunch of other traits I look for in a partner, defines the sort of relationship I'm happiest in. It's the accepting myself part and having all those things that I like, including the D/s, that makes me happy.

TheGrenadier said:

I agree the happiness is important, but I don't understand how a "submissive" cannot be subordinate. In what sense?

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TheGrenadier said:

Mostly yes, because the term "healthy" seems to always mean "egalatarian" or something of the sort. I am having a hard time deciding what everyone here means by "healthy" and finding it hard to adapt it to DS stuff.

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Whoever says that D/s relationships *can't* be egalitarian? They're both people, they both contribute equally to the relationship, albeit in different ways, and are equal in worth, no matter what the structure of the relationship, Dom/sub, Top/bottom, Owner/pet etc because, to paraphrase CM, each side needs the other to be part of a happy, healthy relationship.

I would think that if this *weren't* the case, then it would be unhealthy. And yes, that works for some people. And it is also not the exclusive domain of D/s relationships.

I agree with many of the comments, including cutie's comment that it is a balsy first post.

I have come across subs with serious self-harm issues, bi-polar, low self esteem and other mental health issues. As BDSM is almost an underground way of life I could not comment on whether there is a higher prevalence of subs with issues or not.

For my own part I loved being a sub/slave, yet struggled with it.

There are always unspoken elements to every relationship and sometimes rules are not appropriate. For example when you have a bad day in vanilla and need to off-load but it's not possible because it's outside the time or he comes first.

I had a Dom who I gave all I could to-rose coloured glasses perhaps.

When it ended it was like everything ended.

My self-confidence had vanished, my ability to make decisions on ordinary day to day things became impossible and my way of seeing myself had changed. I loved him without reservation but looking back it was not healthy in the long term.

(continued from previous post)
Since that ended I gave tried dating other DomR.
Every Dom has a different view of submission making it very needle in a haystack.

Those who spoke of wanting to break a sub really concerned me. Sounded unsafe to give over your mental health to someone you did not know and who spoke of previous sub in a less than favourable way. Made me wonder if they lived in fantasy land with little regard for an individual.
Equally worrying were those who wanted me to inflict pain on myself. A way towards self-injurious behaviour and low self-esteem.

I love certain types of pain. It can relax and focus me, but I don't want to hurt myself.

After much thought I realised the negative effect being sub had on my vanilla life and made a decision to walk away.

It wasn't an easy decision.
I now date someone from lit who is vanilla. He is patient and for the first time in years I feel able to breath. The relationship scares me as there are no rules, no expectations set out, yet it feels safe.

CutieMouse said:

Honestly, I'm more concerned about the poor saps who get sucked into BDSM drama hell than anything else. Okay, maybe not *more* concerned, but just as concerned as I am about those submissive repeating unhealthy/abusive relationship dynamics overandoverandover again. In some ways I do wonder if BDSM enables people to not face their shit and be grown men an women; if the theoretical BS of this whole "lifestyle" gives people an excuse to not be responsible for their lives.

My solution would be a long term pipe dream - each person choosing a BDSM based relationship dynamic accepts personal the responsibility to educate themselves about healthy relationship dynamics, and how to recognize unhealthy patterns of behaviour. Set standards. Do not play with, or enter relationships with people who do not meet those basic standards [of healthy relationship dynamics]. Eventually, a century or three from now, all the drama-lama, mentally unstable, incapable of owning their shit people will be self-selected out of the BDSM gene pool and/or the BDSM types will have developed a finer tuned crazy-meter and better recognize whom to avoid.

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This. This. This.

Did I mention This?


It's good to put yourself in situations, with people, who evoke your higher nature rather than your lower one. That can mean relationships with dynamics built around BDSM, vanilla, or something else. Good relationships of all kinds have great (and constant) communication, trust, honesty, and self-awareness.

What I suspect is that for some people, with some issues, a D/s dynamic makes it more difficult to assess whether a given relationship is healthy, or is simply perpetuating patterns and beliefs that the person would best be rid of. Say, pyl's with low self-esteem issues, or PYL's with trends toward narcissism or abuse.

First, because the whole thing feels so good; (and who wants to threaten that with possibly unpleasant emotions?) and second, because there are certain assumptions that come with a D/s dynamic that can legitimize unhelpful behaviors and attitudes.

I don't think D/s is unhealthy at all. On the contrary.

Imagine two women whose emotional makeups are both submissive. One bounces from abuser to abuser, not understanding why her choices in men are so bad. The second consciously identifies as submissive and incorporates that self-awareness into her choice of mate. Which is more common, and who's healthier?

J

I have, in some ways, made it my mission to learn whether or not it is possible to have a healthy M/s relationship. And I have come to the conclusion that it is only possible when the people in the relationship are both healthy

The capacity that human beings have to delude themselves is well-documented. I would like to suggest that a large number of people interacting primarily online are engaged in a process of mutual delusion. Interacting with fantasies in the name of other people. This is as true on the lit playground as it is here in the BDSM forum.

In real-life relationships with actual physical interactions, these activities stimulate an adrenaline response that can become addictive. Pretty easily. Internet addiction is also a very real threat if you're engaged in online relationships. These are chemical realities that affect behavior and health.

Finally, though it seems far more socially acceptable these days, s/m still carries social stigma. Anyone who is engaging in behavior that they feel they cannot display publicly is going to feel some confusion and shame about what they're doing.

Add the fact that misfits of all kinds (I say that lovingly as one misfit to another) - people who already feel stigmatized due to aggressiveness, social anxiety, behavioral disorders, addictive personalities, mental illness, etc. - can find a haven under this BDSM umbrella where the actual expression of all those behaviors is at least tolerated, if not welcomed, makes people feel like they've "come home."

So I think it's kind of a chicken and the egg question - which came first?

My feelings are that it's dangerous ground, thrilling and exciting and potentially quite destructive. But it's hardly the only dangerous ground this life on earth offers. Personally I'd rather fight my demons in this personal arena rather than on a more global scale.

Nobody is totally mentally stable. Some people are into kink for the "wrong" reasons. Life goes on, though, and it's none of my business why people do what they do.

To the OP: maybe submissives are just more likely to admit to mental health problems or self-destructive behaviour than other people are. Maybe if they can be open about their submissiveness, they can be open about their mental health too.

Not something I necessarily believe or disbelieve. Just a thought.

I have a friend who is a PYL, single and currently seeking a female pyl. We have frequent discussions about his frustration at the lack of mentally healthy, self confident, happy potential partners.

At the risk of getting torn apart, and with the caveat that, no, not all pyls are this way, I have to say that from what I've observed, I don't think my friend is so far off.

I have met a lot of people from a lot of different walks of life. My circle of friends and acquaintances is wide. I know that different groups and organizations attract different personality types. However, when I came to Lit, (my first foray into any kind of BDSM community), one of the first things I noticed was the number of pyls who had some kind of mental illness, significant past trauma or who just generally had very low self esteem and displayed passive aggressive behavior. Yes, I've seen these things in every walk of life but at nowhere near the concentration that I did here.

When I checked out Fetlife for the first time, I observed the same phenomenon.

Does that make BDSM wrong or bad? No. In fact, I think a healthy BDSM relationship can do more good than harm.

I also think Cutie Mouse's pipe dream is a good one.

I can see why the whole BDSM-thing may seem to be potentially harmful and even furthering mental instability from the outside.
It’s at least partially about inflicting pain, humiliation and things considered abusive in the mind of ‘normal’ people.
I have to admit that I was at least doubtful before getting into the topic myself. I couldn’t understand the motivation for being submissive (because I am in no way even remotely wired this way) and was worried about the limits of the SM part and so on.
But curiously I happen to be in a relationship for almost exactly ten years now and we found out only about one year ago that she is in fact submissive.

There are things in her I’d call ‘mental issues’ from my personal point of view.
Mostly the mild kind of trauma (from having an incredibly bad-tempered, self-opinionated and erratic father) and some emotional instabilities.
I call these ‘mental issues’ for I do not have this kind of issues.
(Actually I have absolutely no issues and all those people accusing me of megalomania are totally wrong, of course.)
I have yet to meet somebody who doesn’t have any mental issues (besides me that is). And I don’t think such people exist in any significant number.
But I won’t call that ‘mental unhealthy’. It’s more some element of ‘personality development’ and maybe a sign for living in a strange world today.

What I want (and apparently can’t manage) to say is that most people are pretty mentally healthy and being into the BDSM-stuff isn’t a sign for mental unhealthiness. But it is most likely a sign of a certain range of personal experiences from childhood on. And there are people (like me before I embraced the topic more intimately) who look on these experiences and judge them to be traumatic and therefore the cause for some kind of ‘issue’, which manifests in the craving for getting humiliated and so on.
On the other hand most of these fellow ‘victims’ may look at any of these ‘judges’ and find some pretty nasty experiences and resulting strange attitudes which are just out of cultural coincidence deemed ‘normal’.

(Looking at this I recognize that others have said what I so desperately try to express, but I decide to view it as another attempt to express my thoughts in this alien language … )

So from the outside people view especially submissiveness at least as strange. Dominance is less incomprehensible in our social live and therefore less strange. But to feel the urge to subject to someone must be some kind of illness for these people, because they would never consciously decide to do this.
For myself I slowly grasp the whole thing (and would love to try to express my thoughts and discuss them, but that would be completely ot). And just recently I started to get deeper into it.
I am still fighting a lot of urges to be respectful and well mannered. My mother apparently did a good job with me. But I start to get into it and I don’t feel in any way ‘superior’.
I do it to release some of the strains of everyday’s hassle and stress from her and because it leads to more sexual pleasure for her (and in fact me, for I do enjoy to do some rather disrespectful things to her as much as she enjoys it).
Those are only two things out of a whole bunch, but they seem to be pretty important in our relationship, which was intellectually perfect from the first day on, but emotionally stressful for the both of us at times and sexually moderately fulfilling (compared to a rather ‘great’ now).
I feel that it is a real ‘power exchange thing’ for we shifted the normal power balance gradually (and keep doing it) to something normally considered unbalanced. But in fact there is a far more emphasized balance inside since we talk about and explore those new things.
She may subject to lots of my whims now, but in fact that presses me to be a lot more conscious of expressing those whims. And on the other side she’d love to get me more dominant and allures me to explore that, but lets me keep my pace in the development.
Curiously we have far less quarrels ever since. We are on an equal footing now.
I can bear some more daily stress than she can. Its part of what I am. And taking over some of hers has relieved her and removed much of the strain leading to quarrels in the past.
We came out better in the end by getting into this gradually and consciously with a whole lot of pretty clinical communication about it every now and then. And if anything I would like to say that it bettered her mental stability and health.
There are things from her past into which psychoanalysts would love snooping (for the large bills, of course), but since I opted for bearing some of her emotional baggage there is no longer any need for that.

Maybe it is sick from some point of view to delight in spanking, pinching and roughness. To revel in gagging on a cock, getting tied up or fantasize about cruel gangsters surely wasn’t ever programmed into a woman’s genes by nature. But we left mere natural behavior behind centuries ago and have to live with brains that don’t always work well with natural behavior in a world with a data output far too much for us to comprehend.
That’s perverted, too. So why bother with some consensual kinkiness?

So …
No. There is no mentally unhealthiness in being submissive. And most Submissives aren’t mentally unhealthy.
They may revel in taking back some kind of natural role in the ‘battle of sexes’. Or they feel a need to emphasize some kind of behavior to polarize the difference after decades of emancipated equalization leading to lots of ‘gender role disoriented’ partners. Or they crave for more articulate physical sensations. Or they translate some maybe unidentified emotional need or fantasy from their mind into physical terms which happen to be humiliating. Or you name it (and please don’t behead me for the choice of examples) …
But as long as there is consent and some kind of balance both are comfortable with there is no ‘issue’.
I think people call that ‘individuality’.

(Apparently I discovered a certain need to talk about some things. Please be patient with me.
I’m terribly sorry for writing this lengthy and at least partially of topic!)

Keroin said:

I have a friend who is a PYL, single and currently seeking a female pyl. We have frequent discussions about his frustration at the lack of mentally healthy, self confident, happy potential partners.

At the risk of getting torn apart, and with the caveat that, no, not all pyls are this way, I have to say that from what I've observed, I don't think my friend is so far off.

I have met a lot of people from a lot of different walks of life. My circle of friends and acquaintances is wide. I know that different groups and organizations attract different personality types. However, when I came to Lit, (my first foray into any kind of BDSM community), one of the first things I noticed was the number of pyls who had some kind of mental illness, significant past trauma or who just generally had very low self esteem and displayed passive aggressive behavior. Yes, I've seen these things in every walk of life but at nowhere near the concentration that I did here.

When I checked out Fetlife for the first time, I observed the same phenomenon.

Does that make BDSM wrong or bad? No. In fact, I think a healthy BDSM relationship can do more good than harm.

I also think Cutie Mouse's pipe dream is a good one.

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You're insightful as always, Keroin.
Unfortunately you brought up a thougt I missed in my last 'novel' ...

Most (if not all) serious BDSM-relationships involve a lot of talking. About comparable kinks, about limits, about fantasies. And so on.
Most communication is likely to work on different levels. And one of the most devastating problems of typical, broken relationships was to less communication.
Getting consciously into the whole BDSM-stuff presses communication between the persons in question. Even if it was only about ‘technical issues’ there would be some degree of understanding beyond that.
Doesn’t that lead to a ‘better’ relationship (in terms of communication) almost automatically?

Keroin said:

I have a friend who is a PYL, single and currently seeking a female pyl. We have frequent discussions about his frustration at the lack of mentally healthy, self confident, happy potential partners.

At the risk of getting torn apart, and with the caveat that, no, not all pyls are this way, I have to say that from what I've observed, I don't think my friend is so far off.

I have met a lot of people from a lot of different walks of life. My circle of friends and acquaintances is wide. I know that different groups and organizations attract different personality types. However, when I came to Lit, (my first foray into any kind of BDSM community), one of the first things I noticed was the number of pyls who had some kind of mental illness, significant past trauma or who just generally had very low self esteem and displayed passive aggressive behavior. Yes, I've seen these things in every walk of life but at nowhere near the concentration that I did here.

When I checked out Fetlife for the first time, I observed the same phenomenon.

Does that make BDSM wrong or bad? No. In fact, I think a healthy BDSM relationship can do more good than harm.

I also think Cutie Mouse's pipe dream is a good one.

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I think that we also have to take into account the fact that participation in an online forum or participation in a local "scene" is a self-selecting mechanism. It could be the case, for example, that people who have some sort of neurosis or other "issue" find it satisfying to commune with others from the comfort of a chosen environment. It could equally be that many people who enjoy fully healthy lives and relationships choose to stay to themselves and avoid bdsm communities, online or otherwise. I don't know this and I don't mean to suggest that it's really the case, but the OP is basing his conclusions on a very limited sample size and it's not at all a truly random sample. Errors of inference are inevitable from small and irregular samples.