A little trick

http:
//www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15379


The force that through the green fuse drives the flower
Drives my green age; that blasts the roots of trees
Is my destroyer.
And I am dumb to tell the crooked rose
My youth is bent by the same wintry fever.

Two sentences, one paragraph. We'll assign A and B to the two sentences. Notice the semicolon. Here's the rest of Dylan Thomas's poem.

The force that drives the water through the rocks
Drives my red blood; that dries the mouthing streams
Turns mine to wax.
And I am dumb to mouth unto my veins
How at the mountain spring the same mouth sucks.

The hand that whirls the water in the pool
Stirs the quicksand; that ropes the blowing wind
Hauls my shroud sail.
And I am dumb to tell the hanging man
How of my clay is made the hangman's lime.

The lips of time leech to the fountain head; Modification
Love drips and gathers, but the fallen blood
Shall calm her sores.
And I am dumb to tell a weather's wind
How time has ticked a heaven round the stars.

And I am dumb to tell the lover's tomb
How at my sheet goes the same crooked worm.

There's a pattern the beat boys don't bother to tell you about. Pattern is ABABAB a1BB. Now I'm suspect that the syntax for the sentences is either the same, or very similar. ( you can check). Granted, this is not the only things happening here. There are 10,000 ways, things, that go into writing.

This is certainly not an isolated case, I'm sure next time you run across it you'll remember it. As a matter of fact, a simpler version of sentence structure was over in new poems in the past month.

This is also a 'nonce' form which probably the only form I have respect for,

The beat boys do seem to more concerned with, this type of pattern, and the fact something may be prose and the fact that you can use -ing words.

a bird, the bird an ass with crack to sit
to bore and bore, to get the jist of it

too lively, huh? how do I tone this down?

You do see why I get annoyed at times.

This is another pattern, this pattern was never seen before 1922, (as best as I can tell), probably will never see again except as a parody. It did and does some very unusual things.


April is the cruelest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and desire, stirring
Dull roots with spring rain.
Winter kept us warm, covering
Earth in forgetful snow, feeding
A little life with dried tubers.

Besides 1,2,3 to dull roots and a 1 ana 2 to
A little life with dried tubers.

Do you want to take it away Poetguy?

a nonce form is generally created by a poet for a specific poem but which may, over time, and with repeated usage by subsequent poets, become a "received form." We cast a broad net, from the more traditional sense of stichic and/or stanzaic patterns generated/"invented" for a specific poem, to a more liberal definition wherein we most verge towards "organic form" (as in Levertov's "Form is the revelation of content."; or Creeley's "Form is never more than the extension of content.") seeking some identifiable element of regularity, usually in relation to rhythm and sound, but possibly looking towards visual dynamics. Certainly sound and visuality can play off of each other in fascinating ways. All poetry has form

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thankyou, twelviosoh-doh

even i can understand this ^^

having said that, the name's carrying unfortunate connotations -

sex offender, especially child abuser





any zine asking for nonce poetry might get some ... distasteful material submitted

Other interesting meanings as well
Nonce word
First citation is quark, initally from Finnegan's Wake, and Gell-Mann (2nd time I've cited him today!) used it for a class of subatomic particles. They have classifications of charm, color and other traits.

twelveoone said:

This is another pattern, this pattern was never seen before 1922, (as best as I can tell), probably will never see again except as a parody. It did and does some very unusual things.


April is the cruelest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and desire, stirring
Dull roots with spring rain.
Winter kept us warm, covering
Earth in forgetful snow, feeding
A little life with dried tubers.

Besides 1,2,3 to dull roots and a 1 ana 2 to
A little life with dried tubers.

Do you want to take it away Poetguy?

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The beginning of Wasteland is already parody.

1 Whan that Aprille, with hise shoures soote,
2 The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
3 And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
4 Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
5 Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth
6 Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
7 The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
8 Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,
9 And smale foweles maken melodye,
10 That slepen al the nyght with open eye-
11 So priketh hem Nature in hir corages-
12 Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages
13 And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
14 To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
15 And specially, from every shires ende

Epmd607 said:

The beginning of Wasteland is already parody.

1 Whan that Aprille, with hise shoures soote,
2 The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
3 And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
4 Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
5 Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth
6 Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
7 The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
8 Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,
9 And smale foweles maken melodye,
10 That slepen al the nyght with open eye-
11 So priketh hem Nature in hir corages-
12 Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages
13 And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
14 To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
15 And specially, from every shires ende

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When April with his showers sweet with fruit, The drought
of March has pierced unto the root, And bathed
each vein with liquor that has power, To generate
therein and sire the flower; When Zephyr also has,
with his sweet breath, Quickened again,
in every holt and heath, The tender
shoots and buds, and the young sun

Aunt Sue has a head full of stories.
Aunt Sue has a whole heart full of stories.
Summer nights on the front porch
Aunt Sue cuddles a brown-faced child to her bosom
And tells him stories.

Black slaves
Working in the hot sun,
And black slaves
Walking in the dewy night,
And black slaves
Singing sorrow songs on the banks of a mighty river
Mingle themselves softly
In the flow of old Aunt Sue's voice,
Mingle themselves softly
In the dark shadows that cross and recross
Aunt Sue's stories.

And the dark-faced child, listening,
Knows that Aunt Sue's stories are real stories.
He knows that Aunt Sue never got her stories
Out of any book at all,
But that they came
Right out of her own life.

The dark-faced child is quiet
Of a summer night
Listening to Aunt Sue's stories.

By Langston Hughes
this is an excellent example of phrasal repitition.

L1-L2 sets off a pattern of Aunt Sue and stories. There are other patterns, but notice the brown-faced child, becoming dark-faced, listening after the black slaves repititon, finally becoming dark-faced child is quiet.. leading to a resolution of Listening to Aunt Sue's stories.
Typical blues
typical tactic for writers to use when some sort of censorship may be in effect
typical tactic of good poets, to repeat and indirectly lead the reader to the message.

Btw Langston Hughes was a person of African Descent, which means at one time he was black, which means at one time he was a Negro.
So in honour of Black History Month, what I want is for all you less recent people of African descent to go find a black bar (you know where they don't quite speak the Queens English in the proper way) and ask about Meter.
They will probably tell you the meter costs a quarter for 15 minutes.
Persist in your endeavor and patiently explain to them that they can't have rhythm without meter. Most of them don't know that.
Countee Cullen did, he managed to get a sentence in "Sound and form of Modern poetry". Langston, a page. Thirty plus pages debunking Ezra.
Interestin' book.

BTW, I am highlighting, do that you too can be an interesting writer. These are little compositional and structural tricks.

EroticOrogeny said:

Other interesting meanings as well
Nonce word
First citation is quark, initally from Finnegan's Wake, and Gell-Mann (2nd time I've cited him today!) used it for a class of subatomic particles. They have classifications of charm, color and other traits.

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I already did the "boson theory", now go ask Senna what the other definition of quark is.

Epmd607 said:

The beginning of Wasteland is already parody.

1 Whan that Aprille, with hise shoures soote,
2 The droghte of March hath perced to the roote
3 And bathed every veyne in swich licour,
4 Of which vertu engendred is the flour;
5 Whan Zephirus eek with his swete breeth
6 Inspired hath in every holt and heeth
7 The tendre croppes, and the yonge sonne
8 Hath in the Ram his halfe cours yronne,
9 And smale foweles maken melodye,
10 That slepen al the nyght with open eye-
11 So priketh hem Nature in hir corages-
12 Thanne longen folk to goon on pilgrimages
13 And palmeres for to seken straunge strondes
14 To ferne halwes, kowthe in sondry londes;
15 And specially, from every shires ende

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I see no Lilacs.
Let's go a little further Epmd607.
See, I think you focus on the "one or two things" too much. There are 10,000.

twelveoone said:

I see no Lilacs.
Let's go a little further Epmd607.
See, I think you focus on the "one or two things" too much. There are 10,000.

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And I'm surprised no one in Chaucer claimed to be the Chrysanthemum girl. You're really no fun at all, are you?

Epmd607 said:

And I'm surprised no one in Chaucer claimed to be the Chrysanthemum girl. You're really no fun at all, are you?

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No I'm surprised you didn't look at Whitman.

A poem is a formal structure in which many elements operate at the same time. In analysis. each element must be discussed separately - How does a Poem Mean- John Ciardi

BTW I hope some of this stuff, may be useful in composition and structure. Anybody feel free, you find a neat trick, post it, mark it off. All of them are pretty easy in and of themselves, it's just sticking them together and making them work that gets hard.

I heartily encourage EMPD to do so.

twelveoone said:

I already did the "boson theory", now go ask Senna what the other definition of quark is.

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oh, I know it, I know it! it's cheese

Maria2394 said:

oh, I know it, I know it! it's cheese

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geez you gave the cheese
away.
I was saving it in case someone questioned my poetic disability.

Maria2394 said:

oh, I know it, I know it! it's cheese

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READ the other shit too, Dylan Thomas, Langston Hughes, they're better than
pierogies.
I just noticed the Dylan Thomas thing, the day before I posted it. Hughes was mentioned in a book, but not the child part, I never liked that poem, but now I do.

twelveoone said:

READ the other shit too, Dylan Thomas, Langston Hughes, they're better than
pierogies.
I just noticed the Dylan Thomas thing, the day before I posted it. Hughes was mentioned in a book, but not the child part, I never liked that poem, but now I do.

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If you listen to Hughes in the context of blues rhythms, a lot of his poems sound lazy and lingering instead of childish: he's dragging behind the beat like Billie Holiday did. And he uses repetitions in a chant-like way and a call and respond way. It's just a different meter, like you said somewhere else here.

Angeline said:

If you listen to Hughes in the context of blues rhythms, a lot of his poems sound lazy and lingering instead of childish: he's dragging behind the beat like Billie Holiday did. And he uses repetitions in a chant-like way and a call and respond way. It's just a different meter, like you said somewhere else here.

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Hughes, Harlem poets, and jazz basically re-birthed lyrical poetry, in its neo-classical sense anyway, for a little while.

bflagsst said:

Hughes, Harlem poets, and jazz basically re-birthed lyrical poetry, in its neo-classical sense anyway, for a little while.

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who cares what it is, whysit work.

John Ciardi mentions in How does a Poem Mean p.671 "The movement from the specific to the general
is one of basic formulas of poetry. "So going back to Langston...


but notice the brown-faced child, becoming dark-faced, listening about the black slaves finally becoming dark-faced child is quiet listening to Aunt Sue's stories.
paraphasing myself.

bflagsst said:

Hughes, Harlem poets, and jazz basically re-birthed lyrical poetry, in its neo-classical sense anyway, for a little while.

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Hughes and some of his colleagues in the 1920s (during the Harlem Renaissance) did this, I think. Gave lyrical poems their first distinctive 20th c. voice. But the poems born in concert with or as a result of jazz in the post-War 40s and 50s were an entirely different bird. Post-modern and anxious even as they were confessional, and yet Ginsberg sounds a lot like Whitman, like a no-holds-barred, through the looking glass, profane Whitman.

Angeline said:

Hughes and some of his colleagues in the 1920s (during the Harlem Renaissance) did this, I think. Gave lyrical poems their first distinctive 20th c. voice. But the poems born in concert with or as a result of jazz in the post-War 40s and 50s were an entirely different bird. Post-modern and anxious even as they were confessional, and yet Ginsberg sounds a lot like Whitman, like a no-holds-barred, through the looking glass, profane Whitman.

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there is a direct link, link is goes further back to 19th century oratory, and the bible.
Whitman and Ginsberg both use pretty much the same tricks reguadring line length and what they do at the end of the line. I would show you, but then I would have to read Whitman.

twelveoone said:

there is a direct link, link is goes further back to 19th century oratory, and the bible.
Whitman and Ginsberg both use pretty much the same tricks reguadring line length and what they do at the end of the line. I would show you, but then I would have to read Whitman.

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I've noticed the line length similarity myself and as for what they do at the end of a line--I will go figure it out. I don't want to read much Whitman either, but I could read Ginsberg all day, especially when he's writing about New York and NJ, which sounds like home to me.

I'm still simultaneously reading the Unterbach, the Pinsky and now have added to the mix the book Vee recommended: The Rhythm Method, Razzmatazz and Memory. Also still doing the tutorial on rhythm analysis, but skimming, just taking what I think may help me from that. I'm starting to get a real feel for syntax and its relationship to pace and tone--and yes all those tricks. I'm beginning to realize how many great writers wrote whatever draft they were working on and then started laying on the tricks.

i could lose myself in reading whitman, for the longest time - though this is mostly the impression he left on me with that one great epic Song of Myself. it's a poem i never tire of. who knows if i will one day - i really hope i don't lose that sensation