The Voice

Does anybody else ever worry about not getting it when they read a poem?

Does anybody write for a different voice then their own?

Just wondering, if it was just me?

twelveoone said:

Does anybody else ever worry about not getting it when they read a poem?

Does anybody write for a different voice then their own?

Just wondering, if it was just me?

Click to expand...

I know how often people misinterpret my poems, never mind even whether they catch nuances or references I often throw in for shits and giggles. So I figure when I read someone else's poem there's a good chance I am not getting what they meant when they wrote it.

Otoh poetry is so much more about impressions and a sense of something (to me anyway) than about any one precise thing that I can usually get a good feel for what a poem is trying to convey. Sure there can be dead clear word plays but the overall impression is what is transportive about a poem, so how much nuance do I need (bearing in mind that I'm talking about reading a poem for the experience of reading a poem as opposed to studying to tease out nuances). Take The Emperor of Ice Cream, for example. Word by word that ain't an easy poem to translate and yet the overall impression of death and the sense of overwhelming loss in a sea of triviality is crystal clear. Let be be finale of seems is a brilliant line because it's vague and deeply evocative at the same time.

I have written poems in different voices I'm trying on and sometimes they're pretty good, I think, but they're never true. I can employ all sorts of tricks to make something seem like more than the sum of its parts. Those poems are never authentic though, not like something written in my natural (poetic) voice.

Angeline said:

I know how often people misinterpret my poems, never mind even whether they catch nuances or references I often throw in for shits and giggles. So I figure when I read someone else's poem there's a good chance I am not getting what they meant when they wrote it.

Otoh poetry is so much more about impressions and a sense of something (to me anyway) than about any one precise thing that I can usually get a good feel for what a poem is trying to convey. Sure there can be dead clear word plays but the overall impression is what is transportive about a poem, so how much nuance do I need (bearing in mind that I'm talking about reading a poem for the experience of reading a poem as opposed to studying to tease out nuances). Take The Emperor of Ice Cream, for example. Word by word that ain't an easy poem to translate and yet the overall impression of death and the sense of overwhelming loss in a sea of triviality is crystal clear. Let be be finale of seems is a brilliant line because it's vague and deeply evocative at the same time.

I have written poems in different voices I'm trying on and sometimes they're pretty good, I think, but they're never true. I can employ all sorts of tricks to make something seem like more than the sum of its parts. Those poems are never authentic though, not like something written in my natural (poetic) voice.

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Had to look up Otoh, The Emperor of Ice Cream reminds me of your Emjambin' the Blues, where it is the words ( no Jackdaws here, European, hang around towers - Yeats?) creating a feeling rather than telling a story. Actually that seemed like a leap for you.

I think that once was a major problem was the "I don't get it" syndrome. What you read even if it totally whacked, is what you get. I don't think even the greatest writers are fully aware of where their poems come from.

I'm talking a "speaking voice" in your head, I alluded to it I think in the E thread. I hear and can speak jd4george easy. You not so, part o it being I have heard physically people that would say in the same manner jd did. I've not talked to blues people, I think that was the voice you were trying to effect, although not using their words, but using their voice as an overlay to your words.

Bluntly as a comparison between two poets here, I pick up on greenmountaineer very easy, and I may have been a little unfair with fridayam,
as far as timing in his humorous work.

And writing most of the time, I hear the voice and write for it. (well sometimes more than one), I don't know if you remember susquehanna hesitation, a simple little nothing that nobody can read, in that halfway though I tell the reader the guy is drunk, OK, he speaks like Chistopher Walken, OK, or yeah he stutters. An impossible voice, an obvious example.

Specifically do you ever write for someone else's voice? In your Emjambin' the Blues, was it a specific blues singer, was it a black voice. Or did I misread it?

At times I woory about not 'getting it' when reading someone else's poem. But then I keep in mind that it may not be a shortcoming in either me or the poet, just no significant intersection of ideas. Obviously, if in another language, I won't get it.
I think the voices I've written in have all been one of mine.

I do too but I feel its probably my shortcoming most of the time.

I write a lot of times in a formal kind of English to get over the 'lost in translation' problems with you yanks. If you're reading a humour poem of mine, you are probably hearing an approximation of my real voice.
These two poem sound like the real me:

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=507350
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=510816

twelveoone said:

Does anybody else ever worry about not getting it when they read a poem?

Does anybody write for a different voice then their own?

Just wondering, if it was just me?

Click to expand...

I am always "not getting it," but I don't really worry about it.

Poets suffer more from 1st person syndrome than other fiction writers. I think readers assume first person poetry is from the heart, so writing in the voice of a character confuses them.

I once posted a poem in a character's voice. I got a lot of comments, but all were sympathy notes.

EroticOrogeny said:

At times I woory about not 'getting it' when reading someone else's poem. But then I keep in mind that it may not be a shortcoming in either me or the poet, just no significant intersection of ideas. Obviously, if in another language, I won't get it.
I think the voices I've written in have all been one of mine.

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1st bold is key point
2nd is just funny, I try just to let one of 'em out at a time

My natural speaking voice is in the morning like Charles Bronson having a bad day. It improves somewhat as the day goes on. So I don't write for my natural morning voice often.

vrosej10 said:

I do too but I feel its probably my shortcoming most of the time.

I write a lot of times in a formal kind of English to get over the 'lost in translation' problems with you yanks. If you're reading a humour poem of mine, you are probably hearing an approximation of my real voice.
These two poem sound like the real me:

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=507350
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=510816

Click to expand...

Well, Hello, speaking of not getting it, this morning when I did new poems, do you really want to know what I saw (I had some problems)
labia menorah

I got some sleep, thought that can't be right, I was even disappointed I wasn't right

just in case you were wondering what in the hell I was talking about (sometimes I do too, I blame it on the French)

twelveoone said:

Does anybody else ever worry about not getting it when they read a poem?

Does anybody write for a different voice then their own?

Just wondering, if it was just me?

Click to expand...

I think that's one of the main reasons I have trepidations when it comes to analysis and commentary on poems; that what I get out of something might not be what most do or what the author may have intended (consciously or otherwise).

I have to say that, as far as I can tell, I write for my voice. It can be hard to tell sometimes--esp when expressing matters or emotions that I've not necessarily experienced in quite the same way or to the same degree as may be evidenced in a given poem. Really formal forms of speech aren't as common in my day-to-day language as much as colloquialisms and dialectal idioms, but that's just how my inner self (the one who moved fairly often when developing language skills, roleplays assorted characters from different worlds/times/socioeconomic backgrounds, and has the degree in Theatre) tends to come out.

Particularly if I've been drinking.

Problems with voice, I think, is also one reason why I really don't read as much poetry as I prolly should. I'm always afraid too much of someone else's phrasing and rhythm and, well, voice will show up in my own work.

twelveoone said:

Had to look up Otoh, The Emperor of Ice Cream reminds me of your Emjambin' the Blues, where it is the words ( no Jackdaws here, European, hang around towers - Yeats?) creating a feeling rather than telling a story. Actually that seemed like a leap for you.

I think that once was a major problem was the "I don't get it" syndrome. What you read even if it totally whacked, is what you get. I don't think even the greatest writers are fully aware of where their poems come from.

I'm talking a "speaking voice" in your head, I alluded to it I think in the E thread. I hear and can speak jd4george easy. You not so, part o it being I have heard physically people that would say in the same manner jd did. I've not talked to blues people, I think that was the voice you were trying to effect, although not using their words, but using their voice as an overlay to your words.

Bluntly as a comparison between two poets here, I pick up on greenmountaineer very easy, and I may have been a little unfair with fridayam,
as far as timing in his humorous work.

And writing most of the time, I hear the voice and write for it. (well sometimes more than one), I don't know if you remember susquehanna hesitation, a simple little nothing that nobody can read, in that halfway though I tell the reader the guy is drunk, OK, he speaks like Chistopher Walken, OK, or yeah he stutters. An impossible voice, an obvious example.

Specifically do you ever write for someone else's voice? In your Emjambin' the Blues, was it a specific blues singer, was it a black voice. Or did I misread it?

Click to expand...

Oddly enough (perhaps) when I write a poem like Emjambin' the Blues, one that speaks that blues rhythm (so sometimes they've even been form poems), that is pure poetry coming in on the cosmic channel, if you know what I mean. When I write that way I feel more like I'm singing or playing along with the music I'm hearing. It's very natural for me and believe it or not there's no trying at all. Other (non music stuff) there's all kinds of trying to achieve whatever but not with that. Even the more narrative jazz stuff, there's music in my head as I write and I'm using words that suggest that music to me. It's kind of amazing to me that that sort of writing comes to me as naturally as it does. I think I was a jazz musician in another lifetime.

I have attempted to write like smithpeter, maybe not so successfully though I enjoyed trying. I wrote a poem for Senna once in what I thought was a Senna voice but though he was flattered I'm pretty sure my poem was crap lol.

I think I can write most like Tathagata and like you said about jd, I've heard Tath's voice in many people I've known and I think we are equivalent to singing in the same key or some such.

twelveoone said:

Well, Hello, speaking of not getting it, this morning when I did new poems, do you really want to know what I saw (I had some problems)
labia menorah

I got some sleep, thought that can't be right, I was even disappointed I wasn't right

just in case you were wondering what in the hell I was talking about (sometimes I do too, I blame it on the French)

Click to expand...

That is hilarious, I love it!! I thought that shit just happen to me. By the by the title of that poem came about because the pic I was looking at looked like the pussy in question was giving the world a raspberry....

Angeline said:

that is pure poetry coming in on the cosmic channel, if you know what I mean.

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I traced that one - it was overtones from 60 hz (house current)

Getting off the subject there have been experiments centering around pure tones of 300 hz tone or 400 hz where people have heard voices and where able to transcribe them.

I see a patent coming on: The Pure Poetry Generator
I wonder if irma cerutti has one?
me bad

bronzeage said:

I am always "not getting it," but I don't really worry about it.

Poets suffer more from 1st person syndrome than other fiction writers. I think readers assume first person poetry is from the heart, so writing in the voice of a character confuses them.

I once posted a poem in a character's voice. I got a lot of comments, but all were sympathy notes.

Click to expand...

you know I write some of the most outlandish things, and some do think these things actually happened
WTF I wrote about Johnny Derrida riding into town and having a shot out with Psycho Billy (Yeats) and Filthy Ezra (Pound)

WOW did that really happen?

yes ma'am just the facts ma'am; it was on the police report, I just had to change the names a little

and I really thought people would see it as me hackin around with literary criticism set in a spaghetti western

twelveoone said:

you know I write some of the most outlandish things, and some do think these things actually happened
WTF I wrote about Johnny Derrida riding into town and having a shot out with Psycho Billy (Yeats) and Filthy Ezra (Pound)

WOW did that really happen?

yes ma'am just the facts ma'am; it was on the police report, I just had to change the names a little

and I really thought people would see it as me hackin around with literary criticism set in a spaghetti western

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On my poetic license it clearly states, "Never let the facts confuse a good story."

twelveoone said:

I'm talking a "speaking voice" in your head, I alluded to it I think in the E thread. I hear and can speak jd4george easy. ?

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Almost in a supernatural way? Like you think you hear something in your mind that maybe was what the author was hearing as she composed?

Kind of like in a movie when the one character reads a letter written by another character, and the director uses the device where the letter-writer (thousands of miles away) does a voice-over, representing the reader reading the letter silently to himself?

Except when you're reading a poem, you maybe never heard the writer's voice, but you still have the eerie sensation that you're hearing that voice as you read?

That has happened to me a time or two. Not much; it's even fleeting within the space of the poem, like a flash. I find it kind of freaky. Probably just some sort of illusion anyway, comparable to deja vu or presque vu or some of those.

Though I do believe all sorts of extra-sensory things can be transported around through the written word. And I think I do have a relatively well-developed "sixth sense."

The numerologists, for example, like to look at the history of the letter forms and assign vibrational significance to them. I think it's smarter to do on a phoneme level or on a word level or a phrase level or a poem level.

Om is supposed to be a pleasing mantra because the way the vocal apparatus works with the air has some effect on the vocalist's energy level or whatever you want to call it.

Writing, obviously, can be simultaneously visual vibration and oral vibration and how those vibrations work as they mingle with the reader's sort of pre-set frequencies is awfully complicated, but I do believe that voices can be and have been channeled in very specific ways.

bronzeage said:

I am always "not getting it," but I don't really worry about it.

Poets suffer more from 1st person syndrome than other fiction writers. I think readers assume first person poetry is from the heart, so writing in the voice of a character confuses them.

I once posted a poem in a character's voice. I got a lot of comments, but all were sympathy notes.

Click to expand...

LOL. This happened to me in a writing group recently. I have been working on poems that are more like scripts and dramatic monologues. I read a couple that had some weird sexuality thrown in, kind of like the territory covered in movies you might see on the Lifetime Television network. I really got all kinds of weird vibes in the room when I finished, and one of the written comments I got back involved curse words, which is rare in my experience.

twelveoone said:

Does anybody else ever worry about not getting it when they read a poem?

Does anybody write for a different voice then their own?

Just wondering, if it was just me?

Click to expand...

worry? no. i get from it what i get - whether or not that's right or intended. i listen for the voice of each poem, and sometimes that voice might be the voice of the author, sometimes maybe it's the voice of the narrator. but what i hear is what i work with. of course, once i've actually hear the physical voice of a person, then it does tend to overlay. unless i'm very used to a writer, the voice of the individual poem is all i can go on anyway.

given time and familiarity with a writer's work, however, it's often the case that their own signature 'voice' is found resonating within each piece and then they're identifiable (or at least i can take a good shot at guessing who wrote what i just read). how much of that's down to styling, though is another matter. probably counts for the bulk of the impression.

i used to play with different voices, different pov's, different moral/idealist/political standpoints - depending on the narrator of the write i was working on. seeing things from another's eyes, reactions warped by another's sensibilities, was something i'd play with - and found it fairly easy since my dreams are often that way, too. i might be anyone or anything in a dream. even slip from head to head depending who's 'on-screen' in the events of the dream as it unfolds. so... i've written from the pov of the crazy murderess, the scorned bard, oh, all sorts. too many to mention. even a rock, once. and a river... Whether or not people get those different voices is another matter entirely, and i'd often get pm's offering sympathy (like bronze did, lol) or ones questioning certain morality/stances my narrator might have adopted

now, i still write whatever the poem asks of me to write. the voice, though, nowadays, tends to be more frequently my own. perhaps i'm just getting better at reaching in to get what's inside out. i dunno. but overall, and paramount, the voice of the poem is what counts for me - whoever's voice it turns out to be.

bronzeage said:

.....Poets suffer more from 1st person syndrome than other fiction writers...

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I agree with this and also believe because of it we speak in our own voice, even when we think we are not. It may on the surface sound different, but when you add theme, metaphors, and similes that's when the first person syndrome surfaces in my opinion.

Case in point: I'm a babyboomer, which means I'm older than most of the Lit subscribers. I once posted a poem, "Duck and Cover with Bert the Turtle," about the fear a child felt during the fifties. For someone who was born in the seventies or later, I think they may at best have been amused by it. Someone who experienced it may recall the nightmares many children had at the time. The TV cartoon, South Park, on the other hand, spoofs it.

(I don't watch South Park or Lawrence Welk BTW.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_and_Cover_(film)

greenmountaineer said:

I agree with this and also believe because of it we speak in our own voice, even when we think we are not. It may on the surface sound different, but when you add theme, metaphors, and similes that's when the first person syndrome surfaces in my opinion.

Case in point: I'm a babyboomer, which means I'm older than most of the Lit subscribers. I once posted a poem, "Duck and Cover with Bert the Turtle," about the fear a child felt during the fifties. For someone who was born in the seventies or later, I think they may at best have been amused by it. Someone who experienced it may recall the nightmares many children had at the time. The TV cartoon, South Park, on the other hand, spoofs it.

(I don't watch South Park or Lawrence Welk BTW.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_and_Cover_(film)

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I don't remember seeing that, but do recall the cautions and practice we had for such an eventuality. Down into the basement, or at least getting under one's desk.

I at least know who Lawrence Welk was (perhaps more for parents of boomers?), but South Park to me is a place in Colorado.

twelveoone said:

Does anybody else ever worry about not getting it when they read a poem?

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I honestly never expect to get "it" when I read a poem. I'm not in the poet's head space, as it existed at the time of their writing the poem. Theoretically, a poet, upon looking at previous work, might not get it.

Does anybody write for a different voice than their own?
Just wondering if it was just me?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure I get the question. I'm the ultimate guaranteed audience for my poems. Beyond that, I dunno who's gonna read them.

If I'm using a poem to send a message, then I'll try to make it clear and specific, so that it winds up a little like a greeting card, alas. But, you know, the rhymes and stuff make it awesome.

Bluntly as a comparison between two poets here, I pick up on greenmountaineer very easy, and I may have been a little unfair with fridayam,
as far as timing in his humorous work.

You have felt fair enough to me--and anyway I'm British and have a stiff upper lip

To address your question: I think all poets start out speaking only in their own voice and it takes an effort of will to move beyond it, to realise that their gifts can encompass other voices without being mimetic or parodic. There are many great poets who never spoke other than in their own voice, and there are others whose voices are Legion.

I am wary of regionalisms, dialect, etc, only because I think it very hard to bring them off with proper respect: I vaguely remember an E.E.Cummings poem in barely literate Brooklynese (I guess) that tickled me as an adolescent but I suspect would trouble me now.

fridayam said:

Bluntly as a comparison between two poets here, I pick up on greenmountaineer very easy, and I may have been a little unfair with fridayam,
as far as timing in his humorous work.

You have felt fair enough to me--and anyway I'm British and have a stiff upper lip

To address your question: I think all poets start out speaking only in their own voice and it takes an effort of will to move beyond it, to realise that their gifts can encompass other voices without being mimetic or parodic. There are many great poets who never spoke other than in their own voice, and there are others whose voices are Legion.

I am wary of regionalisms, dialect, etc, only because I think it very hard to bring them off with proper respect: I vaguely remember an E.E.Cummings poem in barely literate Brooklynese (I guess) that tickled me as an adolescent but I suspect would trouble me now.

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It really bothered me. He's not getting the timing thing, then remembered that I thought I saw something you being from the UK, of course it would be different. Next guess, I'll bet you're not from Manchester or Birmingham either.

Brooklynese: sadly that is disappearing. I was there recently, I heard one voice, the rest being Russian, Spanish, others and just regular Old American.

twelveoone said:

It really bothered me. He's not getting the timing thing, then remembered that I thought I saw something you being from the UK, of course it would be different. Next guess, I'll bet you're not from Manchester or Birmingham either.

Brooklynese: sadly that is disappearing. I was there recently, I heard one voice, the rest being Russian, Spanish, others and just regular Old American.

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There once were parts of New Orleans where one would think they were in Brooklyn, at least until lunch.

This is not Brooklynese, but when I was young, I knew old men who spoke like this.

Mia Carlotta by Thomas Augustine Daly

GIUSEPPE, da barber, ees greata for "mash,"
He gotta da bigga, da blacka mustache,
Good clo'es an' good styla an' playnta good cash.

W'enevra Giuseppe ees walk on da street,
Da peopla dey talka, "how nobby! how neat!
How softa da handa, how smalla da feet."

He raisa hees hat an' he shaka hees curls,
An' smila weeth teetha so shiny like pearls;
O! many da heart of da seelly young girls
He gotta.
Yes, playnta he gotta—
But notta
Carlotta!

Giuseppe, da barber, he maka da eye,
An' lika da steam engine puffa an' sigh,
For catcha Carlotta w'en she ees go by.

Carlotta she walka weeth nose in da air,
An' look through Giuseppe weeth far-away stare,
As eef she no see dere ees som'body dere.

Giuseppe, da barber, he gotta da cash,
He gotta da clo'es an' da bigga mustache,
He gotta da seely young girls for da "mash,"
But notta—
You bat my life, notta—
Carlotta.
I gotta!

chipbutty said:

i used to play with different voices, different pov's, different moral/idealist/political standpoints - depending on the narrator of the write i was working on. seeing things from another's eyes, reactions warped by another's sensibilities, was something i'd play with - and found it fairly easy since my dreams are often that way, too. i might be anyone or anything in a dream. even slip from head to head depending who's 'on-screen' in the events of the dream as it unfolds. so... i've written from the pov of the crazy murderess, the scorned bard, oh, all sorts. too many to mention. even a rock, once. and a river... Whether or not people get those different voices is another matter entirely, and i'd often get pm's offering sympathy (like bronze did, lol) or ones questioning certain morality/stances my narrator might have adopted

Click to expand...

rock? did she say rock? rook, must have been rook. rick, that's too easy anybody can write in rick's voice

must have been rock
I AM THE ROCK OF GOD
THE STONE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
THE PEBBLE OF FRUITINESS
THE FLINTSTONE OF FRED
THE BOULDER OF COLORADO
and that little thing inside your shoe

I would question it too...( good concrete images, but it just kind of lays there)

pov of the crazy murderess -cool, maybe your crazy murderess can meet my psycho (unofficial winner of the unofficial 2005 enjambment contest)

bronzeage said:

There once were parts of New Orleans where one would think they were in Brooklyn, at least until lunch.

This is not Brooklynese, but when I was young, I knew old men who spoke like this.

Mia Carlotta by Thomas Augustine Daly

GIUSEPPE, da barber, ees greata for "mash,"
He gotta da bigga, da blacka mustache,
Good clo'es an' good styla an' playnta good cash.

W'enevra Giuseppe ees walk on da street,
Da peopla dey talka, "how nobby! how neat!
How softa da handa, how smalla da feet."

He raisa hees hat an' he shaka hees curls,
An' smila weeth teetha so shiny like pearls;
O! many da heart of da seelly young girls
He gotta.
Yes, playnta he gotta—
But notta
Carlotta!

Giuseppe, da barber, he maka da eye,
An' lika da steam engine puffa an' sigh,
For catcha Carlotta w'en she ees go by.

Carlotta she walka weeth nose in da air,
An' look through Giuseppe weeth far-away stare,
As eef she no see dere ees som'body dere.

Giuseppe, da barber, he gotta da cash,
He gotta da clo'es an' da bigga mustache,
He gotta da seely young girls for da "mash,"
But notta—
You bat my life, notta—
Carlotta.
I gotta!

Click to expand...

You know it's a kind of shame, I've know a lot of 2nd generation Italians NOT ONE can speak the language, a shame, same with Poles. Here it is handed to you and they walk away. Every ABC speaks Chinese (mandarin). Maybe it's a number thing, maybe it's the parents, look you never know that's where the jobs are going. And my second language, Pennsylvania Dutch what's that gonna get me? Last time I looked, market for translators was nil.

twelveoone said:

You know it's a kind of shame, I've know a lot of 2nd generation Italians NOT ONE can speak the language, a shame, same with Poles. Here it is handed to you and they walk away. Every ABC speaks Chinese (mandarin). Maybe it's a number thing, maybe it's the parents, look you never know that's where the jobs are going. And my second language, Pennsylvania Dutch what's that gonna get me? Last time I looked, market for translators was nil.

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I grew up in an ethnic neighborhood in a city of ethnic neighborhoods. Most everyone my age back then was a second or third generation American at best. In my own family Yiddish was spoken almost as much as English was. And the fractured stew that came from all those ethnicities mingling is precious to me. I can still hear it in my imagination. I think maybe the suburbs and the separation of generations from a single (or nearby) household over time has beat that way of speaking into dust. It has been replaced by tweets and omg, just as emoticons (at least here onine) have replaced real emotions. No wonder I'm happiest listening to jazz and reading Billy Yeats.