Obedience: how do you learn it?
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CutieMouse
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A) choose someone worth obeying
B) recognize you made a conscious decision to enter a relationship in which you agreed to obey this person
C) respect the relationship and have the maturity to follow the rules instead of acting like a defiant three year old
B) recognize you made a conscious decision to enter a relationship in which you agreed to obey this person
C) respect the relationship and have the maturity to follow the rules instead of acting like a defiant three year old
chy_girl
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D) Redirect the self-will into pleasing one's PYL. There's nothing that says you can't be a bit pissy about the things that really suck - you just got to learn to put the primary focus on pleasing them/minding and regulating the pissy part to second. (And I say that from experience.)
CutieMouse
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Non-passive-aggressive question
Does being petulant and whiny work for you? I mean, how does it show respect, love, trust and confidence in your partner to make him raise a [grown adult] 3 year old? I know that I don't enjoy or have the patience to tolerate that sort of behavior in my children past the age of 4 (maybe 5), so I can't imagine a grown man (a dominant one, no less) enjoying it*...
*Yes, I know there are SAMMY/brat D/s dynamics out there that work for people; I just don't understand it. LOL
Not that I think I'll ever need your advice (not my game...that I'm aware of), but, this was great to read. Thanks!
Is SAMMY an acronym?
chy_girl
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Personally, I think there's a fine line between being SAMMY and being petulant and whiny or having a tantrum. There was for me, anyways. But then again all the petulant/whiny/tantruming behavior in the world never stopped me from doing as I was told. I just released the emotion while doing it and it tapered off after I found the part(s) that I had to accept.
CutieMouse
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chy_girl
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SAMMY - or a SAM is a Smart Ass Masochist. Some of my favorite SAMMY games included waiting till my Sir just about had my hands bound so he could string me up/tie me down for a beating only to have my hands accidentally slip out of the loops. Or untying myself after he got me up. His mood was always gaged before I did it and he knew it was coming by the look on my face. *shrugs* I like playing eel, too.
For my Mistress, most of the gatherings we attended were potlucks. She'd make a comment about "My, those cookies look good," and I'd come back with "They do, don't they? I wonder who brought them?" Or she'd say something about "I'd like some chips and fruit" and I'd say "Oh, that sounds good. Can you get me some too?" Of course I was moving about a second before the words registered with her and she had a good sense of humor about it on the infrequent occasion that I'd pull it, but it was always good natured teasing in the process of doing it.
Again, all in fun and if either of them told me to stop I did. I mean really - I'm a masochist, not stupid.
Thank you!
Hmmm....At times I feel like I'm a masochist, and I'm a self described smart ass (well, there are quite a few testimonials to this effect as well 
)...so am I a SAM(MY)? No worries, it's a completely rhetorical question.
Onto a more serious question (and sorry if it's off thread topic)...I can see how being a smart ass wouldn't fly with a PYL type...but...how do I put this...is there no room for laughter in BDSM? I know the statement is too general to be in any way accurate...but....
chy_girl
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Thank you!
No worries, it's a completely rhetorical question.
Onto a more serious question (and sorry if it's off thread topic)...I can see how being a smart ass wouldn't fly with a PYL type...but...how do I put this...is there no room for laughter in BDSM? I know the statement is too general to be in any way accurate...but....
I get what your asking. With my former People, they were ok with being a smart ass to a point - they were (are?) both smart asses, so they couldn't say much. And they like to laugh and have a good time, be it vanilla or kink. They did have their moments of not being in the mood for joking around (damn that human quality), but overall they were really good about it. Most of the others that I considered "our group" in the community also have a decent sense of humor and enjoy a good laugh on a regular basis - again, this is a group of PYLs and pyls where 'smart ass' is in the top three character traits.
I've also met a few PYLs (and pyls) that seemed constitutionally incapable of laughter. They tended toward the "my way is the true way and ye will submit" category. You can probably guess how well that typically goes over.
All in all, it's just like the rest of life. There's a wide continuum of people with a sense of humor - some to much, some not so much. For the to serious crowd - I'd wouldn't match well with them because I like to play around sometime. I found the looks of exasperation on my People's faces quite endearing and enjoyed the occasional extra swat or snap of a dragon's tongue always got a laugh out of me. But when it came down to it I was playing and I knocked it off when they said or I felt it was pushing the behavioral envelope in a way that would reflect negatively on them.
I'd also not make a good match with someone who could never be serious because there are some serious aspects to BDSM and TPE. If I say something's wrong I actually mean that something is wrong and it needs fixed, I don't want it to be laughed off. And let's face it, some things just aren't that funny.
It's the same as regular life - some people appreciate the humor of living life as a non-perfect human and some people seem to think that if they're serious enough they'll make it out alive.
And thank you for that.I get what your asking. With my former People, they were ok with being a smart ass to a point - they were (are?) both smart asses, so they couldn't say much. And they like to laugh and have a good time, be it vanilla or kink. They did have their moments of not being in the mood for joking around (damn that human quality), but overall they were really good about it. Most of the others that I considered "our group" in the community also have a decent sense of humor and enjoy a good laugh on a regular basis - again, this is a group of PYLs and pyls where 'smart ass' is in the top three character traits.
I've also met a few PYLs (and pyls) that seemed constitutionally incapable of laughter. They tended toward the "my way is the true way and ye will submit" category. You can probably guess how well that typically goes over.
All in all, it's just like the rest of life. There's a wide continuum of people with a sense of humor - some to much, some not so much. For the to serious crowd - I'd wouldn't match well with them because I like to play around sometime. I found the looks of exasperation on my People's faces quite endearing and enjoyed the occasional extra swat or snap of a dragon's tongue always got a laugh out of me. But when it came down to it I was playing and I knocked it off when they said or I felt it was pushing the behavioral envelope in a way that would reflect negatively on them.
I'd also not make a good match with someone who could never be serious because there are some serious aspects to BDSM and TPE. If I say something's wrong I actually mean that something is wrong and it needs fixed, I don't want it to be laughed off. And let's face it, some things just aren't that funny.
It's the same as regular life - some people appreciate the humor of living life as a non-perfect human and some people seem to think that if they're serious enough they'll make it out alive.
Like I said, I didn't wanna generalize, but...really, I'm just not used to the idea that one laugh might be a laugh too many, or that it might break a rule, resulting in punishment (however...pleasurable it might turn out to be). Again, not judging you or your relationships or anything, but...I just know me, and that doesn't jive...Jeebus, I'd be one big bruise knowing my smart mouth...or my pyl would get away with murder, 'cause I'd be laughing too much.
chy_girl
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My former People didn't have a problem with a laugh. They may have not been in the mood on occasion, but I there were times I wasn't either. It was a headspace that we respected in each other. Besides, it took some work (and more than just a tantrum) to earn me a punishment. LOL - and they knew better than to punish me with an impact toy, especially for something so human as laughing.
There were no rules about it, just common sense that paralleled everyday life and social graces. Some gatherings earned more subdued behavior on my part simply because I didn't want to reflect poorly on them - I didn't want to appear as though either of my People didn't have my submission. That was more my choice than theirs though.
I hope that makes sense.
Primalex
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Let me check the army field manual.
IrisAlthea
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I just love the bolded comment!I get what your asking. With my former People, they were ok with being a smart ass to a point - they were (are?) both smart asses, so they couldn't say much. And they like to laugh and have a good time, be it vanilla or kink. They did have their moments of not being in the mood for joking around (damn that human quality), but overall they were really good about it. Most of the others that I considered "our group" in the community also have a decent sense of humor and enjoy a good laugh on a regular basis - again, this is a group of PYLs and pyls where 'smart ass' is in the top three character traits.
I've also met a few PYLs (and pyls) that seemed constitutionally incapable of laughter. They tended toward the "my way is the true way and ye will submit" category. You can probably guess how well that typically goes over.
All in all, it's just like the rest of life. There's a wide continuum of people with a sense of humor - some to much, some not so much. For the to serious crowd - I'd wouldn't match well with them because I like to play around sometime. I found the looks of exasperation on my People's faces quite endearing and enjoyed the occasional extra swat or snap of a dragon's tongue always got a laugh out of me. But when it came down to it I was playing and I knocked it off when they said or I felt it was pushing the behavioral envelope in a way that would reflect negatively on them.
I'd also not make a good match with someone who could never be serious because there are some serious aspects to BDSM and TPE. If I say something's wrong I actually mean that something is wrong and it needs fixed, I don't want it to be laughed off. And let's face it, some things just aren't that funny.
It's the same as regular life - some people appreciate the humor of living life as a non-perfect human and some people seem to think that if they're serious enough they'll make it out alive.
eastern sun
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I was one of those children that was terrified of breaking the rules. My father used to take us walking down roads with "no trespassing" signs, and I was always terrified, imagining dogs coming after us, men with guns. The world I grew up in was just chaotic enough that it seemed quite possible that everything could collapse at any moment.
When I discovered as a teenager that the world doesn't fall apart if you break a rule, I became incorrigible, testing every boundary, trying to discover which "rules" actually had meaning and which were just arbitrary social limits.
Fast forward through a lifetime of testing limits . . . today I obey when I'm afraid of the consequences of disobeying. Sometimes those consequences are physical, sometimes emotional, sometimes coming from sources outside myself, sometimes coming from the workings of my own conscience.
You might be looking in BDSM "obedience" for that outside force that puts you in your place, imposes limits, forces discipline, offers you those adrenaline spikes, and the physical assurance that you exist and that your actions matter to someone. And that may be a real point of entry for you to discover how to control yourself. How to shape your own life. Take responsibility for your own behavior.
It's one of the wonderful paradoxes in these relationships.
Like the fact, that I - one of the more humorless characters on these boards - live in a relationship in which most of the boundaries are set with laughter.
When I discovered as a teenager that the world doesn't fall apart if you break a rule, I became incorrigible, testing every boundary, trying to discover which "rules" actually had meaning and which were just arbitrary social limits.
Fast forward through a lifetime of testing limits . . . today I obey when I'm afraid of the consequences of disobeying. Sometimes those consequences are physical, sometimes emotional, sometimes coming from sources outside myself, sometimes coming from the workings of my own conscience.
You might be looking in BDSM "obedience" for that outside force that puts you in your place, imposes limits, forces discipline, offers you those adrenaline spikes, and the physical assurance that you exist and that your actions matter to someone. And that may be a real point of entry for you to discover how to control yourself. How to shape your own life. Take responsibility for your own behavior.
It's one of the wonderful paradoxes in these relationships.
Like the fact, that I - one of the more humorless characters on these boards - live in a relationship in which most of the boundaries are set with laughter.
BiBunny
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Bandit58
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Onto a more serious question (and sorry if it's off thread topic)...I can see how being a smart ass wouldn't fly with a PYL type...but...how do I put this...is there no room for laughter in BDSM? I know the statement is too general to be in any way accurate...but....
Lots of laughter and fun in this relationship
To tell the truth, there is so much serious medical shit going on that if we didn't laugh, we'd cry and that's no fun at all. Sir has said that I'm the only woman he's had a relationship with that He can "be Himself" with. I'm sure He has ADD because the things that come out of His mouth that have been going off in different directions in His head are "really" weird....but I "get" that, and we have lots of laughs about His perceived OCD as well
Put this all together with dyslexia and it's bedlam here sometimes!I'm not a smart arse (as we spell it here) but just a little bit cheeky, which He loves to see as well as lots of smiles
I second that. Very well put.I just love the bolded comment!
I hope I didn't come across as saying that there can't be a place for laughter, but, you know, if you talk of discipline, etc, there's no room for laughter within that word. To explain it better: I, having no real life BDSM experience...err...scene experience or however you'd choose to term it (damn newbs!!!) only have the understanding afforded to me by the words. As such, they are ...rather clear cut. Discipline is discipline. Obedience is obedience. End of story. The words themselves don't allow for laughter and deviance. Hence my confusion. It is my shortcoming and ignorance, but I don't mean to say that there can't be laughter in bdsm.
Follwoing "the rules" dosen't come easy. At least for me. The ones which have altered affected and changed my behaviour in real life are the hardest. Especailly if you have to comply with something 24/7.
But the satisfaction of achievement is worth it in the long run . Something he always told me but took a long while to understand.
I supose its the differance between giving youself in a way which pleases you or giving youself in the way which pleases him.
Each step brings you closer to where you both want the relationship to be.
But as most have, I'm sure. I've kicked screamed wheedled manipulated and downright refused. But to ultimatly please have submitted eventually.
Any way wouldn't a sub be boring as hell unless she had a ,mind of her own, who challenged and tested her PLY??
I could roll over and just say "yes Master".......but have found complete honesty seems to be the key. And I know hes gets greater satisfaction when he has introduced something which I've fought against ....but eventually complied with. My satisfaction comes from getting there in the end and pleasing him.
But the journey is the best part!
But the satisfaction of achievement is worth it in the long run . Something he always told me but took a long while to understand.
I supose its the differance between giving youself in a way which pleases you or giving youself in the way which pleases him.
Each step brings you closer to where you both want the relationship to be.
But as most have, I'm sure. I've kicked screamed wheedled manipulated and downright refused. But to ultimatly please have submitted eventually.
Any way wouldn't a sub be boring as hell unless she had a ,mind of her own, who challenged and tested her PLY??
I could roll over and just say "yes Master".......but have found complete honesty seems to be the key. And I know hes gets greater satisfaction when he has introduced something which I've fought against ....but eventually complied with. My satisfaction comes from getting there in the end and pleasing him.
But the journey is the best part!
JMohegan
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Most people learn this as children. Even D-types!
How? By facing negative consequences, and learning to avoid them. That's a critical skill for success in school, most work environments, and society at large.
A separate question is: How do you learn to thrive in a personal relationship in which obedience is the general expectation? My answer: I don't think you can. You're either wired this way, or you're not.
Haven't you ever been in the control of an authority figure, but laughing & enjoying yourself regardless?
Teacher A splits a class into groups of 4, and tells everyone to build a model of a castle in the next 45 minutes - using these materials and per these instructions. Laughter and banter ensue, but the teacher doesn't mind, as long as the tasks are accomplished. If a child gets a bit too distracting, or distracted, a quick verbal correction brings that child back within the boundaries of acceptable behavior.
Teacher B gives the same instructions, but adds a directive forbidding all lighthearted chatter. In a subdued classroom, the same castles get built.
Why is Teacher A so hard for some to imagine? Is there no model of such an authority figure, in your past, for you to remember?
OH.....Like that!! Yeah, that I can get...I'd just rather not think of most of my profs while considering BDSM. I just wanna keep them separated. More generally (that's a stupid phrase, ain't it?), conceptually, I guess I still see BDSM as alien (I am not a judgment call about any of you/the lifestyle/the community...although, Gor is fucking weird
. I am just using an apt qualifier) and, as such, it can't have traits in common with day to day life stuff. Mind you, that's my mental schema, not a pronouncement on anything external to me. I guess it will remain alien until such point in time when/if I do get active about it...and I'm still strongly on the if side.Errr, well, ok, confession time: I had one prof (older, intelligent, great body, great dresser, sexy as can be
) that I'd love to tie down and do stuff to (or have her tie me down)....but that's not because of the bondage aspect, it's because of the relationship that would entail. 
DVS
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What's with this learning thing? I didn't have to learn anything to be a Dom. At the most, I just developed my style, over time. I'm assuming someone on the submissive side of this would be the same. And just like there are some I wouldn't enjoy Doming, I'm sure there are those who can't see themselves obeying, either. Isn't a lot of this chemistry? If you desire something, it comes a lot easier to you.
