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Hard limits versus Soft limits

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ali0610

Virgin
Joined
Nov 21, 2010
Posts
11
I have a very general question. I'm pretty new and trying to learn more...
When asked what are my hard and soft limits (are those even the correct terms?), how am I supposed to be sure which one is which? Of course I am looking for a Master to push my limits...
BUT...I know some things I would REALLY prefer not to do...but does that mean that it's a "Hard limit?" Or could it be a soft limit and I just don't want to do it...but I need my Master to push that limit. Make sense? Sorry it's kinda confusing. Hopefully someone will be able to understand my mess of words here :)
 
ali0610 said:
I have a very general question. I'm pretty new and trying to learn more...
When asked what are my hard and soft limits (are those even the correct terms?), how am I supposed to be sure which one is which? Of course I am looking for a Master to push my limits...
BUT...I know some things I would REALLY prefer not to do...but does that mean that it's a "Hard limit?" Or could it be a soft limit and I just don't want to do it...but I need my Master to push that limit. Make sense? Sorry it's kinda confusing. Hopefully someone will be able to understand my mess of words here :)
Click to expand...

Hard limit= Something you will NOT do.
Soft limit= You don't believe you will do it but if pushed, hey who knows.

These are my point of views anyways so check around some more until you can make up your own mind.
 
ali0610 said:
how am I supposed to be sure which one is which?
Click to expand...

You aren't.

BDSM is like quantum science - Schroedinger's Cat. If you don't open the box, you can't be sure.

But I guess it's easier to compare it with food.

There are some things that are so gross for you that you don't even want to taste it (f.e. the chinese 100 year old duck egg).

Then there are some things that you don't think you will try or taste, but you feel unsure about (f.e. like haggis).


(I rarely bother to ask these things, because the answer always goes through a moral filter.)
 
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Primalex said:
(I rarely bother to ask these things, because the answer always goes through a moral filter.)
Click to expand...

I totally agree with this statement.

Also, things you may have once considered a soft limit sometimes become something you are at least open to, if not crave (especially if it is something your PYL craves). [Sometimes i think of myself as tofu ... there are hard limits that i have for sure, but they are few; otherwise i tend to take on the "flavor" of my PYL :D ]
 
Let me see if I can clarify it a bit. Though my answer won't be the final authority or all encompassing, it should help to get you closer to the bullseye in your understanding.

hard limit = No fucking way ever. Don't even think it let alone suggest or try it. (example: Sex with children )

Soft Limit = Things you might find unpleasant or not like but would be willing to do in order to please your partner sexually. It can also be things you find scary or don't feel you have the ability to do.

I think the phrase, I would like someone to push my limits is a bit of a misnomer as it is used by people new to BDSM. I think people who have a lot of expereince in BDSM understand what it means to have their limits pushed and they can want and even desire that. I think however newer people to BDSM tend to pick up on this phase and use it without really knowing what it really means.

I think what newer people are trying to say is that they would want some one to push them to explore things that sound fun and adventerious, things they never done before but have fantasized about as being fun, dirty, naughty, exotic even scary. This is quite different than pushing your limits.

I think many see BDSM as a way of expanding their sexual experience. To take a leap into the unknown to see how far down the rabbit hole their sexuality goes. Hard limits is basically a term that is used as a safegaurd defense mechanism in order to state clearly your non-consent to specific things. Sex with children, sex with animals, eating shit...are three examples of hard limits most people would say. Soft limits are a more refined form of communication to your partner of things you don't really like to do or feel you can't do.

Here's the thing though, at the end of the day, its really just a form of communication between you and your partner. As with all forms of communication, you should be as clear and as up front as you are able to, but know that in any relationship, communication is an ongoing thing. When you explore something as vast and varied as sexuality, you are bound to find things you like and things you don't, so your list will probably change as you go along and its important to continue to keep an open dialog of communication about these feelings and changes.

You may add to your list, and you may find that after trying something you thought you wouldn't like, you somehow found that you did. So the list can grow or shrink in the area of soft limits.

Hards limits tend to never change. They tend to be relashionship enders if tired because they are hard limits and if known, those are lines which shouldn't be crossed.

My advice to those new to BDSM, is to not be so eager to focus on pushing limits, rather take the time to explore other areas of your sexuality you feel free to do. This will build a level of trust sharing these expereinces that will give you a track record in which to deal with situations where your soft limits are pushed.

My other peice advice would be to create a list of all things you "know" at this point in time to be your hard limits and your soft limits. When you share it with your partner you need to let them know that there may be other things you just don't know about at this time, but will let them know if and when anything changes.

Lastly, just remember that communicating hardlimits, soft limits or even using safewords is no guarantee that your partner will respect those limits or stop when they need to. So again, be sure you choose your partner wisely. There is always risk.

And if you find yourself in a situation where you say stop and the person goes...no no no...you didn't list that as a hard limt, just dump his ass then and there because your life should not be in the hands of a 3rd grader mentality.
 
*claps wildly because RJ always says the stuff I wish I had the right words to say....only he's friggin faster*
 
RJMasters said:
hard limit = No fucking way ever. Don't even think it let alone suggest or try it. (example: Sex with children )
Click to expand...

You would be surprised for how many people this is a soft limit..but thanks for an example for the moral filter I was talking about ;-)
 
Primalex said:
You would be surprised for how many people this is a soft limit..but thanks for an example for the moral filter I was talking about ;-)
Click to expand...

Np. I am sure there are.

I don't have problems with moral filters. I also don't think its a deal killer if someone has moral filters. In fact I would tend to think that compatability is often dictated by two people who share the same if not simillar moral filters.
 
RJMasters said:
Let me see if I can clarify it a bit. Though my answer won't be the final authority or all encompassing, it should help to get you closer to the bullseye in your understanding.

hard limit = No fucking way ever. Don't even think it let alone suggest or try it. (example: Sex with children )

Soft Limit = Things you might find unpleasant or not like but would be willing to do in order to please your partner sexually. It can also be things you find scary or don't feel you have the ability to do.

I think the phrase, I would like someone to push my limits is a bit of a misnomer as it is used by people new to BDSM. I think people who have a lot of expereince in BDSM understand what it means to have their limits pushed and they can want and even desire that. I think however newer people to BDSM tend to pick up on this phase and use it without really knowing what it really means.

I think what newer people are trying to say is that they would want some one to push them to explore things that sound fun and adventerious, things they never done before but have fantasized about as being fun, dirty, naughty, exotic even scary. This is quite different than pushing your limits.

I think many see BDSM as a way of expanding their sexual experience. To take a leap into the unknown to see how far down the rabbit hole their sexuality goes. Hard limits is basically a term that is used as a safegaurd defense mechanism in order to state clearly your non-consent to specific things. Sex with children, sex with animals, eating shit...are three examples of hard limits most people would say. Soft limits are a more refined form of communication to your partner of things you don't really like to do or feel you can't do.

Here's the thing though, at the end of the day, its really just a form of communication between you and your partner. As with all forms of communication, you should be as clear and as up front as you are able to, but know that in any relationship, communication is an ongoing thing. When you explore something as vast and varied as sexuality, you are bound to find things you like and things you don't, so your list will probably change as you go along and its important to continue to keep an open dialog of communication about these feelings and changes.

You may add to your list, and you may find that after trying something you thought you wouldn't like, you somehow found that you did. So the list can grow or shrink in the area of soft limits.

Hards limits tend to never change. They tend to be relashionship enders if tired because they are hard limits and if known, those are lines which shouldn't be crossed.

My advice to those new to BDSM, is to not be so eager to focus on pushing limits, rather take the time to explore other areas of your sexuality you feel free to do. This will build a level of trust sharing these expereinces that will give you a track record in which to deal with situations where your soft limits are pushed.

My other peice advice would be to create a list of all things you "know" at this point in time to be your hard limits and your soft limits. When you share it with your partner you need to let them know that there may be other things you just don't know about at this time, but will let them know if and when anything changes.

Lastly, just remember that communicating hardlimits, soft limits or even using safewords is no guarantee that your partner will respect those limits or stop when they need to. So again, be sure you choose your partner wisely. There is always risk.

And if you find yourself in a situation where you say stop and the person goes...no no no...you didn't list that as a hard limt, just dump his ass then and there because your life should not be in the hands of a 3rd grader mentality.
Click to expand...

here here! Beautifully and succinctly put.
 
Medium Limits?

I hate to further confuse the issue, but I think there might be some medium limits. I've got some things in my head that I know are not hard limits (something I would never ever do) yet are, or at least seem to me to be not soft limits (I don't want them pushed, but at the right time, they could be successfully pushed)... maybe 'firm but not final' limits.

The thing about limits is, that there is a lot of negotiation involved with BDSM- you don't just put down a list in the beginning and that's that, you learn as you go (about yourself, your partner, your likes dislikes and turn-ons)... and it's not true as somebody said that your hard limits never change. There was a time where I never would have considered doing anything related to watersports/goldenshowers, wasn't even an interest (and even in fact a turn-off). I explored the fetish though a story I wrote and ended up experimenting reluctantly- very reluctantly, and now I have a completely different outlook on it. Limits change. We change.

In the begining, its often better to just think of some things you'd like to try (or maybe only one thing at a time, like a blindfold or restraints) and stick to a fairly tight script. That's right, plan it out very specifically (talk though it, write a story, re-enact a scene from a movie). I think it's best if everybody knows what to expect. My early scenes usually went as follows: one of us would write a story about something we wanted to try and then the other one would read it and then when it was time for sex, we'd pretty much act out the story. After many years he would just do whatever and I would follow along after for the most part, but by this time he had a pretty good map (and also I don't think he gave a fuck any more what I wanted, but that was a relationship issue not a BDSM one)
 
Soft and hard limits differ from person to person, and in some cases, from relationship to relationship. What many find over time and experience is that what was once a hard limit, in another place and time becomes no limit at all, and at times even a much loved activity. I am one of those people who do not add children as a hard limit. Why? Because the base line of BDSM and sexual activity for us is about consenting adults, not manipulating, abusing and/or involving non-consenting adults, or children who are not emotionally, sexually or physically mature enough to consider, let alone responsible enough to give consent, nor breaking the law (if you are going to include everything that is possible in the world, you will never finish your list....so stick to things which are legal and may be expected by a reasonable adult, not criminal). So no, along with the huge list of illegal actvities some cannot resist questioning people about when they say they are TPE etc., (eg. would you rob a bank? would you kill another person? etc.), children do not even have a place on the conversation as it has nothing to do with BDSM or limits, it is pedophilia.

As some have mentioned, scat may be mentioned as a hard limit, but when questioned further, there may be some areas of scat play a person will participate in if asked to...defining is always a good thing, as is an open mind. Without keeping your mind open, exploring and growth become difficult. Yes, some may dispute this, but I have heard people say they consider a light spanking a hard limit....and for them it may be, but it may also be more about the moment and needing to build trust over time....if someone isn't open to discussing and negotiating, they will usually lose out on a lot they might have enjoyed otherwise.

There used to be a popular saying around here, 'never say never' because so many had found things they swore black and blue were hard limits they would never shift on, actually became soft limits or highly desireable activities. It happens and is part of the growth process, coupled with experience. So yes, define what you see as soft and hard limits, add another list of things you would like to perhaps explore but may find you do not want to repeat, learn to communicate well, and learn to look at things from a different perspective and POV to maximise your enjoyment. I can guarantee you, this will make the journey much more fun and successful.:rose:

Catalina:cattail:
 
catalina_francisco said:
There used to be a popular saying around here, 'never say never' because so many had found things they swore black and blue were hard limits they would never shift on, actually became soft limits or highly desireable activities. It happens and is part of the growth process, coupled with experience. So yes, define what you see as soft and hard limits, add another list of things you would like to perhaps explore but may find you do not want to repeat, learn to communicate well, and learn to look at things from a different perspective and POV to maximise your enjoyment. I can guarantee you, this will make the journey much more fun and successful.:rose:

Catalina:cattail:
Click to expand...

Yep. There are activities that I considered hard limits but are now commonplace in my relationship. It took years for them to change but here we are. Should this relationship end those things would go back to being somewhere between a soft and hard limit.
 
There is a checklist I *really* like at this site; however, it requires that you have some type of software capable of opening an Excel spreadsheet. If that's not a dealbreaker for you, check it out.

A couple of the things I really like about it is that it includes approximately 240 discrete and specific activities in the kink/fetish/BDSM arena, and at the bottom includes some very very bright questions, e.g.,

"List any allergies that the Dom(me) should be aware [of]? (If yes, describe: ) This may include allergies to: Latex, food, scents, oils, lotions, wool, feathers, etc."

"Any specific subject not described in this list that the Dom(me) should be concerned with? (If yes, describe: )"​

You might want to review this - and/or other - checklist(s), either alone or with a potential PYL, for a little more insight into what activities constitute your hard, soft, or potentially changeable limits. Good luck, and welcome to WIITWD!
 
it's so subjective and also mutable (especially for soft limits), but for me a hard limit is something I could not and would not do because there is a moral imperative in place. so in most cases that means stuff which is actually illegal (kids, animals, dead bodies, anything non-consensual) but soft limits means I may not do or want it now, but later on, in future... who knows.
 
Kybele said:
it's so subjective and also mutable (especially for soft limits), but for me a hard limit is something I could not and would not do because there is a moral imperative in place. so in most cases that means stuff which is actually illegal (kids, animals, dead bodies, anything non-consensual) but soft limits means I may not do or want it now, but later on, in future... who knows.
Click to expand...

But don't you think that given most agree that BDSM is based upon consensual activities, including illegal and activities of non-consent are unnecessary? For me it is like asking someone if the main ingredient is bacon when they tell you they are serving a vegetarian omelette....it just isn't something which should even be there and by adding then should lead to adding every other thing on earth you can imagine which would never end.:confused:

Catalina:rose:
 
not that i'm one to speak on the concept of limits in general, but i've always been a bit mystified by the idea of claiming "illegal activities" as hard limits. the reality is many of the things most of us engage in on a regular basis are against the law in our respective jurisdictions, so to say that under no circumstances will you engage in something illegal is to say that you will do very, very little.
 
Last edited:
catalina_francisco said:
But don't you think that given most agree that BDSM is based upon consensual activities, including illegal and activities of non-consent are unnecessary? For me it is like asking someone if the main ingredient is bacon when they tell you they are serving a vegetarian omelette....it just isn't something which should even be there and by adding then should lead to adding every other thing on earth you can imagine which would never end.:confused:

Catalina:rose:
Click to expand...

true point, but most people when mentioning 'hard limits' say things like 'no kids, blah blah...'

and I think that is because, as you expressed earlier, such 'soft limits' are mutable. and equally if you are in an intense relationship then you may be asked to be involved in things like non-con, kids, necro, animals etc. Just because many or most people involved in BDSM have respect for the law, doesn't mean everyone does. For me rimming was a hard limit, but not any more, so what are 'hard limits'?
 
ownedsubgal said:
not that i'm one to speak on the concept of limits in general, but i've always been a bit mystified by the idea of claiming "illegal activities" as hard limits. the reality is many of the things most of us engage in on a regular basis our against the law in our respective jurisdictions, so to say that under no circumstances will you engage in something illegal is to say that you will do very, very little.
Click to expand...

That makes me wonder about the laws here in Aus.

I know that if I were to fall over in the shower and end up in emergency, and I'm covered in *other* bruises, things would probably be very bloody difficult.

I know it's not illegal to go to a Pro Dom/me and get yourself beaten into a pulp, but I'm not sure what laws regulate them.

/me goes googling
 
You know, I agree in general with the thinking, if its illegal, why list or even mention it?

But there are things done for kink that are illegal.

Such as public displays of nudity and sex. That's illegal yet it is often done. There are those who are into beastiality.

With that in mind...even though it may seem a given...wouldn't you want to just put it out there to ensure clarity from the start?

This thought also prompted me to ask another question.

Are there things which you do sexually that would be considered illegal activities? If so, where does the line get drawn?
 
Living in the deep south, I'm fairly sure anything but missionary position, in the dark, under the covers with your legal spouse is illegal in my state. :D
 
Sir_Winston54 said:
There is a checklist I *really* like at this site; however, it requires that you have some type of software capable of opening an Excel spreadsheet. If that's not a dealbreaker for you, check it out.
Click to expand...


Hm, that list is woefully incomplete. There was no "Gin Rummy torture" (this is when the pyl lays down her cards in neat rows and the PYL messes them up and puts the straights out of order when the pyl is not looking) nor was there "Algebraic lashings" (when the pyl is forced to listen to or read algebraic equations...*shudders*).

Well, maybe that kind of stuff is too hardcore for the general BDSM community.

/;)
 
RJMasters said:
You know, I agree in general with the thinking, if its illegal, why list or even mention it?

But there are things done for kink that are illegal.

Such as public displays of nudity and sex. That's illegal yet it is often done. There are those who are into beastiality.

With that in mind...even though it may seem a given...wouldn't you want to just put it out there to ensure clarity from the start?
Click to expand...
This raises the question: When is "the start"?

I assume that people who actually present such lists to one another do so in the context of an internet ad or request for hookup at the local club.

As a guy who has only ever dated in the old school, "ask her out and get to know her over a period of time" model, I really can't conceive of a woman making such a pronouncement. At the start of the dating process it would be incredibly presumptuous, and after getting to know one another it would be extraordinarily offensive.

I'm a fan of the "you either trust me or you don't" M.O.
 
catalina_francisco said:
But don't you think that given most agree that BDSM is based upon consensual activities, including illegal and activities of non-consent are unnecessary?
Click to expand...

Well, in some countries it's illegal for a guy to kiss a guy.

In Switzerland it is discussed right now whether consensual sex between relatives of legal age should be made legal or not.

In Germany it is illegal to own certain mangas, which are completely legal in Japan.

Now tell me, since when does your kink depend on the geographic location you are on? I love what I love, no matter where I am.


No idea what "most agree", but if this is true, then those people are very shortsighted.
 
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