TSA pat downs and body scans

So we here at Lit are generally fond of groping, but is the TSA's approach false security or will it truly help?

having erroneously been put on the TSA's watch list, I can tell you it's a royal pain in the ass. This last time I was detained along with a group of other American passengers while leaving Copenhagen, but they've been riffling through my underdrawers on every goddamned flight since I went to mainland China back in 2008; i know because they always leave their calling card, a white card that says "you have been randomly selected" blah blah blah. This last time, they also managed to forget to replace two of the packing cubes i used; ground crew somehow found them in Copenhagen and managed to find me on my connecting flight in Chicago, and then, indignity of indignities, call me to the top of the plane so I could pick them up. They ended up having to pass them back over the heads of other passengers. We are talking about my silky underdrawers here, and all i can think about even now is, what if they hadn't been in packing cubes??? I washed everything when I got home. SOOOO DISGUSTING, knowing these people are pawing through our stuff, pawing our bodies (we got the full rub pat-down in Copenhagen). I am so not a terrorist, it's not even funny. I am the most boring person I know, in spite of writing erotica, and all i really do is teach people how to speak English. No, not terrorists, just furriners. I also got full rub pat-downs in China, 12 planes in all over the course of a couple of weeks, and boy is THAT fun. But you expect it with the Chinese; they've always lived under repressive regimes. America is over-reacting, since what's the percentage of white people who have turned into terrorists, and how many of them are 51 year old English teachers?? I bet the stats are pretty f----- low.

The most terrifying place to be, in any airport, is packed into the never-ending lines at the entrance to security. I feel like a fish in a barrel.

Any sort of attack that happens there-- would have a bigger impact as far as lives lost are concerned, and would shut down all the nation's airports just as thoroughly as a bomb on a plane would.

The terrorists are winning--and we're giving them a lot of help with that.

sr71plt said:

The terrorists are winning--and we're giving them a lot of help with that.

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And how handy is that, for certain corporations and individuals?

*putting on the tinfoil hat now*

Oh, I don't see it as any part of a conspiracy or even something business is taking advantage of. Of all the things Americans lost on 9/11, their false sense of security (which the government had been working for decades to let them continue enjoying) was the biggest blow. They assume (falsely) that they were totally safe before and they're beating their heads against the wall to regain that sense of security that was false from the beginning. Which ain't gonna happen. And they think that, being Americans, there's some way for them to gain control again. That ain't gonna happen either.

I can hear the terrorists talking. "OK, the shoe routine worked a charm. They think we've lost because it was discovered before it blew. There was no requirement for it to blow, of course, all we needed to do was get the dummy aboard. OK, and the bottled water bit went great too. OK, what's next? Any ideas on how to make a bra explode?"

And the very thought of being scanned "nude" or patted down is such an anathema to your basic jihadi that it makes a suicide attack on an airplane even more unlikely than it ever was. Do the math, folks. Your chances of being hit by lightning are greater.

No, the real loss was the idea that somehow travel could be pleasant or intellectually stimulating. Now it's just a complete pain in the ass. I hate airlines, I hate (most) airports, I hate TSA and HS and I'm approaching the belief that there isn't a damned spot outside the U.S. that's worth putting up with this shit go to see. I'm just waiting for some hot-tempered attorney to file a sexual harassment charge over this, especially since it appears that the scans aren't secure, after all. Hell, they're showing up on the 'net!

jomar said:

So we here at Lit are generally fond of groping, but is the TSA's approach false security or will it truly help?

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No. Terrorism is but an armed PR campaign. Bloody deeds are nothing but PR stunts to get in the media, and I am sure that there are plenty of ways to do that other than hijacking and blowing up airliners. A suicide bomber at the Lincoln Memorial would achieve the same end without having to deal with TSA.

But I suspect that the terrorists have some interest in keeping the threat level at some comfortable level. They probably just want you scared, not panicked.

voluptuary_manque said:

And the very thought of being scanned "nude" or patted down is such an anathema to your basic jihadi that it makes a suicide attack on an airplane even more unlikely than it ever was. Do the math, folks. Your chances of being hit by lightning are greater.

No, the real loss was the idea that somehow travel could be pleasant or intellectually stimulating. Now it's just a complete pain in the ass. I hate airlines, I hate (most) airports, I hate TSA and HS and I'm approaching the belief that there isn't a damned spot outside the U.S. that's worth putting up with this shit go to see. I'm just waiting for some hot-tempered attorney to file a sexual harassment charge over this, especially since it appears that the scans aren't secure, after all. Hell, they're showing up on the 'net!

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How can you expect every single person who views the images to have morals? You can't. And that was the point I made in discussing this from the beginning. I know I am a member here, and have been for a few years... but I am a terribly private person in real life. If the hubby doesn't even get nekid pics of me, why in the hell do I want some random person seeing the goods? Well, I don't.

If I don't accept hugs from acquaintances, why would I want someone I don't know being in my personal space, let alone with a hand near my bits and pieces? Not going to happen. So, in light of that, I guess I will be driving to vacation destinations from now on. Yes, I am that adamant about it. If I had to fly for my profession, I would go flip burgers instead. Not kidding one bit.

A lot of the people who are screaming about invasion of privacy, violations of liberties, etc. now are the same people who would scream about screening procedures not being thorough enough should someone manage to blow up a plane.

Katyusha said:

A lot of the people who are screaming about invasion of privacy, violations of liberties, etc. now are the same people who would scream about screening procedures not being thorough enough should someone manage to blow up a plane.

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The TSA has not stopped a single terrorist. Nor are they likely to ever stop a terrorist as things go. The studies bear out my assertions, but I'm not going to go into that.

I'd like to joke about the groping some more but this is clearly something that is irritating -- no, INFURIATING, everyone. It's no joke when little kids are getting groped by a stranger -- which goes against everything we try to teach them.

And yet we are giving enhanced pat downs to pilots and stewardesses? I'm going to say it if no one else will: we need common sense security procedures, highly trained intelligence personnel instead of GED douchebags at the check points, and human judgement -- i.e. profiling.

And anyone who wants to argue with me, go right ahead, I ain't even going to read your post.

wet_special said:

The TSA has not stopped a single terrorist. Nor are they likely to ever stop a terrorist as things go. The studies bear out my assertions, but I'm not going to go into that.

I'd like to joke about the groping some more but this is clearly something that is irritating -- no, INFURIATING, everyone. It's no joke when little kids are getting groped by a stranger -- which goes against everything we try to teach them.

And yet we are giving enhanced pat downs to pilots and stewardesses? I'm going to say it if no one else will: we need common sense security procedures, highly trained intelligence personnel instead of GED douchebags at the check points, and human judgement -- i.e. profiling.

And anyone who wants to argue with me, go right ahead, I ain't even going to read your post.

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*shrug* You're welcome to your beliefs and to respond or not respond as you wish. I stand by what I said.

Katyusha said:

A lot of the people who are screaming about invasion of privacy, violations of liberties, etc. now are the same people who would scream about screening procedures not being thorough enough should someone manage to blow up a plane.

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I agree, there is a contingent in this country who react with fury regarding whatever is in their face-- if it's an inconvenience they are angry, if it's disaster they are angry, if it's a violation of their human dignity they are angry too-- there is no sense of scale.

But so what? That doesn't mean that our civil rights are not being violated.

Stella_Omega said:

I agree, there is a contingent in this country who react with fury regarding whatever is in their face-- if it's an inconvenience they are angry, if it's disaster they are angry, if it's a violation of their human dignity they are angry too-- there is no sense of scale.

But so what? That doesn't mean that our civil rights are not being violated.

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Here's the main issue at stake: is there and should there be a reasonable expectation of privacy when flying? In your house, in your car, that expectation legally exists, therefore by law you're protected from these kinds of things when it comes to searching you and your belongings without a warrant or probable cause. Hence the argument against DUI checkpoints and the increasing numbers of lawsuits against police departments using backscatter technology to see inside your car without your knowing as you drive by.

If, legally, there is no reasonable expectation of privacy when flying, then civil liberties aren't being violated. Courts have ruled that way several times in the past. However, advanced imaging technology and full-body pat-downs using the palm of the hand haven't been used before, so now it's up to the courts to make that determination again. If they determine there's a reasonable expectation of privacy, the same as you have elsewhere, then the TSA will be forced to re-think their procedures. If not, there is the option not to fly.

I *personally* have no problem with the new pat-down procedure but I understand why so many do. As far as the body scanners go...I'm on the fence. And I guess you could call me on the fence about the pat-downs as well. I see very well why TSA feels they need to use such technology and procedures but I also very much understand what people are in an uproar about.

Katyusha said:

A lot of the people who are screaming about invasion of privacy, violations of liberties, etc. now are the same people who would scream about screening procedures not being thorough enough should someone manage to blow up a plane.

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Well, that's true. It's the American way. I know of people who voted Republican in the recent congressional elections because the Democrats didn't fix up soon enough what the Republicans screwed so badly with the economy and have done everything they can to prevent anything being fixed.

But that's just what happens in American society.

"Touch my junk and I'll have you arrested!"

The words of one passenger...

Perhaps the great unwashed masses will decide this issue by their own personal definitions of privacy and unreasonable search.

One might type, 'Islamic Terrorists', profile the bastards!

The former Israeli Transportation Chief, or the equivalent in Americanese, condemns the US Government and the TSA for the unecessary delays and invasion privacy...yes, they, 'intellectually' profile their airline passengers, but there is only Ben Gurion airport and far fewer numbers to deal with in Israel.

Personally, if it came down to allowing my 14 year old daughter to be groped and/or full body scanned, I would opt to drive.

It is a shame that we cannot go about our business of travelling and such because of Islamic Terrorists.

Wonder how mankind solves that problem?

amicus

It is a shame that we cannot go about our business of travelling and such because of Islamic Terrorists.

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that's so unlike you, Ami-- blaming terrorists for America's bad decisions.

You are usually so ready to lecture the populace about shouldering the responsibility for their own bad judgement. Why not this time?

So how many people carrying explosives or fake explosives on to an airplane have TSA and HS actually stopped at the security check points inside the airport? 0, nada, none, zip.

All of those stopped were either well outside the airport buildings or had already passed through the checkpoints. TSA batting average is .000 when it come to doing their job. They happen to do less with more than almost any other government agency.

The only thing the TSA has done it create the stated bottleneck where a terrorist could strike with maximum damage. Just as he steps up to the metal detector, which wouldn't raise the alarm for any type of explosives.

So unless you are "intellectually" profiling they would most likely walk right on through, with TSA none the wiser.

Zeb_Carter said:

So how many people carrying explosives or fake explosives on to an airplane have TSA and HS actually stopped at the security check points inside the airport? 0, nada, none, zip.

All of those stopped were either well outside the airport buildings or had already passed through the checkpoints. TSA batting average is .000 when it come to doing their job. They happen to do less with more than almost any other government agency.

The only thing the TSA has done it create the stated bottleneck where a terrorist could strike with maximum damage. Just as he steps up to the metal detector, which wouldn't raise the alarm for any type of explosives.

So unless you are "intellectually" profiling they would most likely walk right on through, with TSA none the wiser.

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Since 9/11 all the terrorist attempts have originated outside the U.S. And all the terrorists who have attempted to do something on board a plane have been mugged and tied up, not by Sky Marshals or TSA, but by the other passengers, mostly Americans. 9/11 was a fluke. They pulled it off because it was novel. Up until then hijackings had all been done to take the plane somewhere the perp wanted to go. No one expected that these jihadi fools would deliberately crash an airliner into a building. Now we know. Now we defend ourselves. Now we counterattack.

Zeb_Carter said:

So how many people carrying explosives or fake explosives on to an airplane have TSA and HS actually stopped at the security check points inside the airport? 0, nada, none, zip.

All of those stopped were either well outside the airport buildings or had already passed through the checkpoints. TSA batting average is .000 when it come to doing their job. They happen to do less with more than almost any other government agency.

The only thing the TSA has done it create the stated bottleneck where a terrorist could strike with maximum damage. Just as he steps up to the metal detector, which wouldn't raise the alarm for any type of explosives.

So unless you are "intellectually" profiling they would most likely walk right on through, with TSA none the wiser.

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Absolutely.

(I'm agreeing with ZEB!)

Whoa! Zeb seems to be claiming that there have been folks getting on planes with explosive or fake explosives on their bodies after going through a TSA check since the TSA checks started. Is this true? I haven't heard of any. And, if not, that's not a valid point.

And Katyusha has already posted the valid response to this. The very first time a terrorist gets lucky and blows a plane up after going through any kind of security check, the yammers are going to be out in force about lax security.

This is a no win situation, so my feeling (having been on the firing line in the Middle East for quite a few years) is to not play to the lowest-common-denominator fear factor on this. Be free and act free and live with the occasional isolated mishap.

I'd put more of the effort into screening passengers at ticketing and making sure it's the ticketed passenger who arrives at the gate, yes, using intelligently applied profiling. We have "watch" and "no fly" lists and don't put the effort into applying them, for instance.

Overall, I'd rather live freer, take my chances, and spend my terrorist tracking money at snuffing them out a long distance from my home shores.

And, actually, with the represented crazy reactionaries I see posts from on this forum, I'm more concerned about domestic crazies than foreign terrorists.

Security is tested on a regular basis and the unknowing security agents fail a LOT. I read an article about it a few years ago. I believe it was in Newsweek, but I could be wrong about that. The agents conducting the tests were getting on the planes with all manner of contraband. As far as I know they never attempted it with real explosives, though. That seems like a bad idea even in a controlled test.

I'm avoiding flying for as long as possible just because I don't want to go through it.

TSA hasnt stopped much of the smuggling that uses airlines, and it doesnt examine freight or mail shipped via airlines.

Technology exists to obscure anatomical details yet TSA uses high resolution machines.

As soon as they capture a boy with a bomb in his butt they'll do cavity probes of everyone.

Osama-Obama likely laughs his ass off at YOU.

Well, there are three issues here that are the problem, all having to do with the machine (the failure of which is what's leading to the pat-down issue). In theory, the machine should be a winner (to a point) because you just walk through, a stranger sees you nekkid, but that stranger sees thousands nekkid and, presumably, could care less (plot bunny anyone?), and isn't going to remember you anyway. Your image vanishes, end of story.

But, as we know from the news, the machine people lied. First problem is that the images DO get kept (and how the fuck did that happen? I can barely keep my computer from erasing things that I don't want erased, why couldn't they get theirs to erase what they wanted erased?). And said images got leaked. Next, there's some folk wondering if the x-raying might be dangerous, especially frequent flyers. If you're flying several times a week, can this machine cause you health trouble? And last, there's a question if they're using the machines because the man who makes them and profits form their sales was part of making the decision to use them...little conflict of interest there.

I'm in agreement with Katyusha that TSA is between a rock and a hard place. Everyone is screaming about the searches, but if they aren't done and something goes wrong, TSA will be blamed. TSA is trying to cover their asses. And I'm equally in agreement with Sr7 that what we really should be doing is trying to teach Americans to stop living in Never-Neverland. To grow up and realize that we can't always prevent anything bad from ever happening to us.

We just can't get past that loss of "innocence" (call it stupidity) that made us think we were so superior to backwater, infidel bad guys that we'd be able to stop them in a heartbeat before they ever did anything bad to us--and do it with one maverick Bruce Willis or Will Smith American. We can't deal with the fact that they succeeded, big time. We've been scrambling and trying to regain that feeling of control, security and power for almost ten years now.

And now...now we're losing it at those who've been trying to give us what we demanded and insisted we wanted. Because they gave us all this instead of a maverick kicking butt. I think the scans (released on the internet) and pat downs are the final straw. We're suddenly realizing that all this is making us feel more out of power, control and inferior, not back in control and power. So now we're rebelling against TSA on all levels as a warped way of regaining that feeling. Our whole country should be in therapy.