Safewording

We've met a few new people recently and while hanging out last weekend, I had a conversation with one of the subs that has kept me thinking most of the week. It was about safewording. She asked me mine, whether I've used it, so on. Yes we have one, it is the stop light color system, and no I haven't used it to date. She bragged about how they have one but she's never used hers and never would no matter what was going on. She told me about a few scenes that got so intense she was really pushed over and past the edge, but she took pride in not safewording even though it took her and her Dom a bit of time to get past it. They are very nice people, fun to hang out with, and if that is what has worked so far for her and her PYL, great.

While I've never used mine, I would if pushed past that point. We had to set one because we had an infamous "ow, fuck, ow!" situation and he stopped, then when discussing later he laughed when I told him "well yeah I said 'ow' but it was just 'ow' not 'ow stop.'"

I already know B's opinions on this (we talked on the way home) and how I'll keep on keeping on, but I'm curious, how popular is this line of thinking? Aren't safewords given to avoid getting pushed so far past a personal edge that it takes time for a PYL and pyl to reestablish that trust again? Do some couples treat it like a dare, "it's here but don't use it or you're a wuss" kind of thing? Is a safeword a tool? A dare? A point of pride to never go to?

What good is having a safeword if the pyl professes that she refuses to use it and the PYL knows that?


I do however understand that for some it's difficult to use. I know they serve a purpose. I even agree with it. I also know that there's something deep in side me that says my PYL will be disappointed in me if I use it, and I hate the thought of disappointing him, so I try very hard not to use it.


But he needs to be able to depend on me to safeword when it's too much for me. He's not a mind reader, and I've no right to expect him to be. He'll sometimes make a point of asking me if I'll use my safeword if I need to, and not inflicting any pain until I answer. He's very attentive to my physical signs (e.g. breathing). He'll sometimes ask me to rate the pain on a scale of 10. Ways to help him gauge where I am while lessening my need to safeword.

It works for us...we both feel safe in our playing.

For me (being one and all) I find the female body is a temperamental thing... what might barely tickle one day, might feel like I've been pried open with a hot poker another time, all depends on where I am in my cycle and a bunch of other things.

Sometimes even I can't know how something is going to feel, or if something is suddenly going to be too much sometimes, until it happens. And then I sing like the proverbial canary.

It doesn't happen often though, because he's well tuned to my signs of distress. But he needs to trust that I'll let him know if something is wrong, and I need to trust that he'll listen. It's all good.

wicked woman said:

What good is having a safeword if the pyl professes that she refuses to use it and the PYL knows that?


I do however understand that for some it's difficult to use. I know they serve a purpose. I even agree with it. I also know that there's something deep in side me that says my PYL will be disappointed in me if I use it, and I hate the thought of disappointing him, so I try very hard not to use it.


But he needs to be able to depend on me to safeword when it's too much for me. He's not a mind reader, and I've no right to expect him to be. He'll sometimes make a point of asking me if I'll use my safeword if I need to, and not inflicting any pain until I answer. He's very attentive to my physical signs (e.g. breathing). He'll sometimes ask me to rate the pain on a scale of 10. Ways to help him gauge where I am while lessening my need to safeword.

It works for us...we both feel safe in our playing.

Click to expand...

I agree with Wicked Woman on this one. One of my dom friends stopped our session a couple of months back because he knows how stubborn I can be and could tell by my breathing pattern that I was close to my limit. He was right....and for the first time my safeword was about to be used that day.

I'm not so stubborn that I would never use it but I do like pushing/testing limits but I don't ever won't to lose that trust so I'd rather use it than ever try and blame a dom for pushing too hard.

Nobody's ever going to get the damn satisfaction of hearing me say "too much." If that's not PC, I hate it, but that's how it is. I'll drop dead before I'll give in, but I'm a stubborn bitch. And that's why I don't have a safeword because I know I'm not going to use the damn thing, so why bother?

I've always had a safeword, never needed to use it seriously though. There's been a few times where I've done the "yellow" thing, for non serious issues. Things like, my left foot just went numb so I need to move it. Because I ONLY play with people I trust, I don't expect to need it in a traumatic way.

The thing is, I play hard. Really really hard. I had a PYL call Red a few months ago. I thought it was great! So safewording out is not something I see myself doing except in the case of an accident. I'm pretty stubborn, but I think I might have outgrown my deathwish. Most of the time anyway.

I understand most of these. I definitely understand not wanting to use it. What fun would it be if that were a regular event? I hope I never use it, but it's good to have. I've heard the analogy that it's like a seatbelt in a car, it's there but will hopefully never come into play if all goes well. I've had two close calls (almost called "red") and the only thing that kept me from panicking was knowing that the word was there that would put a stop to it if it went any further (like others mentioned, he's also good at reading me and saw it was nearly too much and changed directions). He's human like any other Dom though (in a superhuman way of course!), and sometimes him missing a signal may be the difference between just tolerating something more than I can handle and real injury. That line of thinking sort of struck me as saying "I have a seatbelt in my car but I won't use it even though I've been in a few crashes and been hurt by them." That may be colored by our specific brand of doing things or my noviceness though, and I get that.

BiBunny's comment is similar to how this conversation went (except she had one and just won't use it). Is that edgeplay? What's the difference?

VelvetSin said:

BiBunny's comment is similar to how this conversation went (except she had one and just won't use it). Is that edgeplay? What's the difference?

Click to expand...

To me edgeplay means those activities that are either on the fringe of acceptance in bdsm (scat, blood play, etc) or activities that carry a higher inherent risk to the safety of those involved (knifeplay, asphyxiation, etc). That's just my two cents though.

From my perspective of a PYL, I have always stressed the importance of a sub using her safeword if necessary. It is an important communication tool.

I have a safeword with Hubby and not with the Sadist.

Where I have one I'll use it if I need to. Where I don't, there is no choice, isn't it?

Hubby prefers to have the freedom to relay on my judgment if things get too intense. He still keep an eye on how I feel/breath/react but he prefer me to monitor myself. It would be breaching his trust on me if I were to stubbornly refuse to use the safeword when needed.

And I had to use it once, and you can read about it in this thread here .

The Sadist prefer the total control of the pyl not having a safeword. Of course he does not demand to go without right away. It takes a little time to learn each other, body reactions and so forth. However just because I do not have a safeword, it does not mean I cannot let him know if something is not right. I just use plain English and he asses the situation and decides what to do.


"Safeword: yes or not", depends on the people involved. I think it is a very important aspect to discuss. It is not simply a question of having one or not. I think that what is important to discuss is what it means to the PYL and the pyl. Not only in term of what and when to use it, but also about the expectations of both the pyl and PYL on the consequences of use or lack of use.

As for edge play, it is not necessarily related with lack of safeword. You can engage in edge play (whatever pushes your edges of acceptable and risk, mostly seems to cover knife/blood and breath play) and still have a safeword, or not have one and never go any further than a rabbit fur flogger.

If you have a safe word, and you get to that point where you should use it for whatever reason, not using it is even more stupid and potentially damaging, than not tapping out when you should in an MMA match. That's my opinion.



Pride can fucking kill ya. Seriously.

VelvetSin said:

She bragged about how they have one but she's never used hers and never would no matter what was going on. She told me about a few scenes that got so intense she was really pushed over and past the edge, but she took pride in not safewording even though it took her and her Dom a bit of time to get past it.

Click to expand...

I've been in this situation a couple of times. I don't have a safeword and I'm glad for it, because one of my core needs is to be broken down. I've yet to experience anything physical that would take me over the edge, but psychologically I've been well past my boundaries more than once or twice. It has taken us time to bounce back and for me to learn to trust again, but I feel like it only makes my trust in him stronger. He'll stand by me even when I'm a mess and he'll allow me and us to take the time necessary to fix things. And in our case it time that heals, no big conversations or anything. If I feel like sleeping on the couch rather than next to him for some time, then fine - I'll sleep on the couch. We both know that things will eventually go back to being normal.

I have this streak of emotional hard core masochism that sometimes scares the shit out of me. But what can I say, it's a pretty deeply rooted need that I have and I've come a long way in accepting it. I really appreciate our relationship, because it allows me to feel really bad and even hate him, too.

Could the couple you described be into something similar? I don't really understand what's the point of having a safeword if there's absolutely that would make one use it, and bragging about it sounds childish. Someone here once mentioned that they get punished for safewording, too. For me that is a foreign concept as well and IMO in a way negates the whole idea of having one.

seela said:

I've been in this situation a couple of times. I don't have a safeword and I'm glad for it, because one of my core needs is to be broken down. I've yet to experience anything physical that would take me over the edge, but psychologically I've been well past my boundaries more than once or twice. It has taken us time to bounce back and for me to learn to trust again, but I feel like it only makes my trust in him stronger. He'll stand by me even when I'm a mess and he'll allow me and us to take the time necessary to fix things. And in our case it time that heals, no big conversations or anything. If I feel like sleeping on the couch rather than next to him for some time, then fine - I'll sleep on the couch. We both know that things will eventually go back to being normal.

I have this streak of emotional hard core masochism that sometimes scares the shit out of me. But what can I say, it's a pretty deeply rooted need that I have and I've come a long way in accepting it. I really appreciate our relationship, because it allows me to feel really bad and even hate him, too.

Could the couple you described be into something similar? I don't really understand what's the point of having a safeword if there's absolutely that would make one use it, and bragging about it sounds childish. Someone here once mentioned that they get punished for safewording, too. For me that is a foreign concept as well and IMO in a way negates the whole idea of having one.

Click to expand...

I'd rather safeword than let a PYL push me so far that trust has to be re-built, that seems like a waste of precious mental, emotional and physical time you could be spending together....
just my .02 worth.

I see the value in safewords. I tend to state what I need at a moment or what the problem is. I'm lightheaded. I need water. I don't really do the play where I'm asking to stop when I really want it to continue though. So I suppose that stating that up front would help in clarifying that. Also, my experience is limited to stuff with one person. I would be much more likely to use a safeword with someone I haven't played with to be perfectly clear since it's a widely known, accepted, and clearly defined boundary.

NomadLady said:

I'd rather safeword than let a PYL push me so far that trust has to be re-built, that seems like a waste of precious mental, emotional and physical time you could be spent together....
just my .02 worth.

Click to expand...

This.

seela said:

I've been in this situation a couple of times. I don't have a safeword and I'm glad for it, because one of my core needs is to be broken down. I've yet to experience anything physical that would take me over the edge, but psychologically I've been well past my boundaries more than once or twice. It has taken us time to bounce back and for me to learn to trust again, but I feel like it only makes my trust in him stronger. He'll stand by me even when I'm a mess and he'll allow me and us to take the time necessary to fix things. And in our case it time that heals, no big conversations or anything. If I feel like sleeping on the couch rather than next to him for some time, then fine - I'll sleep on the couch. We both know that things will eventually go back to being normal.

I have this streak of emotional hard core masochism that sometimes scares the shit out of me. But what can I say, it's a pretty deeply rooted need that I have and I've come a long way in accepting it. I really appreciate our relationship, because it allows me to feel really bad and even hate him, too.

Could the couple you described be into something similar? I don't really understand what's the point of having a safeword if there's absolutely that would make one use it, and bragging about it sounds childish. Someone here once mentioned that they get punished for safewording, too. For me that is a foreign concept as well and IMO in a way negates the whole idea of having one.

Click to expand...

Her explanation was more in line with what BiBunny said, but having watched their interactions, it's possible she said one thing but meant something like this. Either way, if it works for the two of them (and whatever the dynamic, it obviously has because they've been together in a PYL/pyl sense for nearly ten years), who am I to question it? My own PYL has pushed the importance of using it if it's needed, and like others said, he's pushed the belief that the only disappointment he would feel towards me is if I didn't use it when I needed to (which does not necessarily remove the guilt associating with tapping out if I ever did, but helps to keep panic down when things do skirt the edge to know it's there and available), but that's our dynamic. I'm mainly curious how popular that line of thinking is with others' dynamics, and whether it is common to treat a safeword sort of as a dare. It's more curiosity questioning than challenging their or my PYL's beliefs.

ultramarineblue said:

I see the value in safewords. I tend to state what I need at a moment or what the problem is. I'm lightheaded. I need water. I don't really do the play where I'm asking to stop when I really want it to continue though. So I suppose that stating that up front would help in clarifying that. Also, my experience is limited to stuff with one person. I would be much more likely to use a safeword with someone I haven't played with to be perfectly clear since it's a widely known, accepted, and clearly defined boundary.

Click to expand...

I don't intentionally say stop or whatever during play, but he sometimes carries on conversations during play and part of his fun is hearing what nonsense crap will come out of my mouth, especially right after a solid smack when I'm trying to frame a word, and sometimes "stop" or "ow" or "ohgod" slips in front of whatever else I was trying to say. He doesn't punish me if my answers are incoherent or gibberish, but will if I don't answer at all, so random words just spill out. I have a tendency to go nonverbal even if I need something, so we're working on that.

MasterPhoenix said:

From my perspective of a PYL, I have always stressed the importance of a sub using her safeword if necessary. It is an important communication tool.

Click to expand...

Thank you for the perspective. I think sometimes when in a situation with a specific person, it's easy to second-guess oneself or worry what his/her particular PYL might think if it's done.

I think from a sub side, no one wants to stop the fun, and even when it stops being fun on the bottom, the thought is that the Top is still having fun so don't take that away even if it means going beyond. That's been my hesitance anyway on those few close calls, and maybe why this particular conversation kept rattling around in my head as to whether I'd ever reach a point to match the other sub.

VelvetSin said:

I don't intentionally say stop or whatever during play, but he sometimes carries on conversations during play and part of his fun is hearing what nonsense crap will come out of my mouth, especially right after a solid smack when I'm trying to frame a word, and sometimes "stop" or "ow" or "ohgod" slips in front of whatever else I was trying to say. He doesn't punish me if my answers are incoherent or gibberish, but will if I don't answer at all, so random words just spill out. I have a tendency to go nonverbal even if I need something, so we're working on that.

Click to expand...

This makes a lot of sense. The only thing I wonder out of curiosity is if you go pretty nonverbal, then how would you realize or know when to use a safeword or really even remember the word?

VelvetSin said:

We've met a few new people recently and while hanging out last weekend, I had a conversation with one of the subs that has kept me thinking most of the week. It was about safewording. She asked me mine, whether I've used it, so on. Yes we have one, it is the stop light color system, and no I haven't used it to date. She bragged about how they have one but she's never used hers and never would no matter what was going on. She told me about a few scenes that got so intense she was really pushed over and past the edge, but she took pride in not safewording even though it took her and her Dom a bit of time to get past it. They are very nice people, fun to hang out with, and if that is what has worked so far for her and her PYL, great.

While I've never used mine, I would if pushed past that point. We had to set one because we had an infamous "ow, fuck, ow!" situation and he stopped, then when discussing later he laughed when I told him "well yeah I said 'ow' but it was just 'ow' not 'ow stop.'"

I already know B's opinions on this (we talked on the way home) and how I'll keep on keeping on, but I'm curious, how popular is this line of thinking? Aren't safewords given to avoid getting pushed so far past a personal edge that it takes time for a PYL and pyl to reestablish that trust again? Do some couples treat it like a dare, "it's here but don't use it or you're a wuss" kind of thing? Is a safeword a tool? A dare? A point of pride to never go to?

Click to expand...

I've never been in a situation where I did not have a safe word. This sort of play has to remain just that, or it's not fun (for me). The major point of having a safe word if you are playing with strangers or people who recently were strangers, is so that everyone can remain in character and not have to constantly be coming out of character to ask if everything is okay.

ultramarineblue said:

This makes a lot of sense. The only thing I wonder out of curiosity is if you go pretty nonverbal, then how would you realize or know when to use a safeword or really even remember the word?

Click to expand...

I can't really answer that since I haven't actually done it yet, but I can speculate? It's possible what he's calling "nonverbal" isn't true nonverbal. I don't know since I've never seen others do it. It's like I get hyperfocused on the sensations I want and forget about words or anything else other than the good stuff. The two times things got close I sort of came out the other side of it (does that make any sense? I don't think I'm describing it right) and realized something wasn't right any longer, but just as I did, he saw the shift before I said anything. The first time was a non-issue in retrospect, but the second time, if I had been a little more coherent I probably could have asked for a readjustment a few minutes sooner that would have prevented a need for a complete pause and change of direction. When I must respond to questions or conversation, it's not the "are you okay?" type of questions, it's usually in the context of the scene, but it keeps me a little more coherent and gives him more feedback even if it's nonsense words. That may not have made any sense, I'm not really sure how to describe it any better.

I think if I really needed to call a real stop, I'd be able to focus enough.

VelvetSin said:

I can't really answer that since I haven't actually done it yet, but I can speculate? It's possible what he's calling "nonverbal" isn't true nonverbal. I don't know since I've never seen others do it. It's like I get hyperfocused on the sensations I want and forget about words or anything else other than the good stuff. The two times things got close I sort of came out the other side of it (does that make any sense? I don't think I'm describing it right) and realized something wasn't right any longer, but just as I did, he saw the shift before I said anything. The first time was a non-issue in retrospect, but the second time, if I had been a little more coherent I probably could have asked for a readjustment a few minutes sooner that would have prevented a need for a complete pause and change of direction. When I must respond to questions or conversation, it's not the "are you okay?" type of questions, it's usually in the context of the scene, but it keeps me a little more coherent and gives him more feedback even if it's nonsense words. That may not have made any sense, I'm not really sure how to describe it any better.

I think if I really needed to call a real stop, I'd be able to focus enough.

Click to expand...

This makes perfect sense to me. I have experienced what you've described a few times. I've tried to make sure that I'm aware of what I need and say it in plenty of time.

seela said:

I've been in this situation a couple of times. I don't have a safeword and I'm glad for it, because one of my core needs is to be broken down. I've yet to experience anything physical that would take me over the edge, but psychologically I've been well past my boundaries more than once or twice. It has taken us time to bounce back and for me to learn to trust again, but I feel like it only makes my trust in him stronger. He'll stand by me even when I'm a mess and he'll allow me and us to take the time necessary to fix things. And in our case it time that heals, no big conversations or anything. If I feel like sleeping on the couch rather than next to him for some time, then fine - I'll sleep on the couch. We both know that things will eventually go back to being normal.

I have this streak of emotional hard core masochism that sometimes scares the shit out of me. But what can I say, it's a pretty deeply rooted need that I have and I've come a long way in accepting it. I really appreciate our relationship, because it allows me to feel really bad and even hate him, too.

Click to expand...

this is very similar to how it is for us. safewords are not permitted in my relationship of course, but i have really never understood the concept anyway. if they are used with strangers or casual acquaintances, you cannot trust them to heed a safeword in the first place. if they are used only with someone you trust, such as your Dominant or Master, then to me it says that in the end, YOU the submissive partner are ultimately in control. the Dominant can only take you as far as you will allow them. and that would just be a really, really icky feeling for someone like me.

also like seela, my strong emotional needs to be degraded and broken down could not possibly be met if he did not occasionally send me to a very, very bad place. but he has the will, desire and knowledge necessary to build me back up again.

i can also say that if i were in a completely different sort of relationship where a safeword was permitted, i would never be able to use one. it's not just pride (although that would play a small factor), it would be, as others have mentioned, absolute horror at the idea of disappointing the person i am supposed to serve. i could not live with that disappointment, even if they could.

In the past I've been stop light trained. Jounar prefers to just check in on me and for me to tell him when something isn't right, so I guess I don't have a formal safeword anymore, and we do have "no limit" sessions where he will push me harder than under normal situations.

But even when I've had the option to safeword, I've resisted. I am wired such that if I feel the slightest bit of disapointment in my partner, I am distroyed. I want nothing more than to be the most pleasing I humanly possibly can, and past that ability. When ever I've safeworded, I've had to have a lot of reasurance. I feel like I've failed when I safeword. Like I've disapointed him because I had to stop so he hasn't gotten his full enjoyment out of me.

Jounar has taken to praising me after every session. It helps a lot, but some times there is that little piece of me that wonders if he didn't want more.

I don't take pride in the fact that I don't safeword, it's just, holding back is what I do to try to provide him the enjoyment he's seeking.

We don't have a safeword, but for those who do and feel it is disappointing to the PYL if the pyl uses it, perhaps it is necessary to look at it from a different angle. If a PYL grants the use of a safeword, they obviously have their reasons for doing so. To not use it, and possibly have the result of serious and/or permanent damage because of that, I would think would be not only disappointing in that the pyl has taken control into their own hands and broken trust with the PYL, but also making the decision for the PYL that they can and would be willing to live with the knowledge they had created that situation through their actions.

Deciding on stubborness and not using a safeword IMO is more about the desires of the pyl than the desires of the PYL...to say it is about not wanting to disappoint once again comes back to what the pyl wants, how they want to be perceived, not what the PYL wants and expects, nor with concern about how the PYL may be perceived if damage is the result. Surely if it is granted and with the instruction to use if necessary, to submit means the pyl follows that direction as opposed to resisting and doing their own thing regardless.

Catalina

I'd try my best not to turn the safeword into a competition, but knowing me... I probably would.
Whats a good safeword/system anyways?