Mental vs. Physical

TL;DR:

After hanging around this forum and a couple other size fetish communities for several months now, I'd begun to think that macrophilia and BDSM were practically one and the same. Talk of "owning", and "pets", and "obedience training", and "humiliation" among other things comprises half the threads on macro boards, and it just occurred to me that very similar nomenclature and topics of discussion can be seen here frequently as well. The only difference I could see between the two communities was that one, well... had a size-fetish.

And then someone started a thread on GiantessCity, polling people about their gender, and social and sexual aggressiveness or passiveness. Someone noticed a trend in results, mentioning that he would have thought that a site "dedicated to female empowerment would have more females represented", to which many other people said that everything about the giantess fetish is about female objectification, and (long story short) all the guys with the fetish more or less habitually top from the bottom.

Pretty much. I've seen this scenario many times:

Man: You can do anything you want to me Goddess! You are in complete control!
Woman: Alrighty, I think I'll put you in my bra, and...
Man: Eww, no, I'm totally not into that! Why don't you step on me? Wait! Not barefoot. With the black boots. I don't like the brown ones, they feel really uncomfortable.

Click to expand...

So then that got me to thinking that I fall into that category to an extent, even though most of it is still introducing S to the whole idea, what I want, etc. What I often find myself doing, though, is goading him; giving him a hard time, teasing him, and otherwise being a little bit of a snot so I can get a physical reaction. Usually one of tickling in various ways (he's getting scarily good at it, and loves to embarrass me by doing it in public). This realization led me to post this, in addition to other stuff:

The thing with me, though, is that I'm not completely submissive. I still like to have control and a final say in many things, and not have my life micromanaged in any shape or form... what I like, and what seems to be a major difference with the size-fetish and BDSM communities, is that my submissiveness is apparently rooted in the being "small/weak" mindset rather than being "owned". Instead of all my interactions with S happening with the underlying mentality of "I want to be obedient and please him", mine is more along the lines of "he is stronger than me, knows every single weak/ticklish spot on my body, and can physically overpower me at the drop of a hat, so I either better not be a brat because I don't want to be knocked to the floor and manhandled, or I WILL be a brat because I WANT to be knocked to the floor and manhandled". I think there's a fundamental difference there that separates the two needs, broadly speaking.

Click to expand...

I see a lot of folks here into the willing mental submission side of things, and very few into the physically overpowered side of things, if at all. I know bondage and masochistic tendencies play into this, but what I'm beginning to find out I want is to be in a 24/7 relationship that is almost entirely manifested through physical domination, and whatever that might entail. Don't know if that's even possible, though. Again, that sort of thing I can imagine would only exist in a fantasy world where S was double my size.

What are your thoughts on the two ends of the spectrum? Or do you treat them as two sides of the same coin? Do you think this sort of thing has a place here, or is it far more suited to the size-fetish school of thought? Would you consider it to be a "lesser" form of submission?

So... I'm genuinely curious what all you really smart people have to say.

(I will probably also have to elaborate on some points later, because I invariably end up confusing myself when I try to type up long-winded posts about my trains of thought.)

I don't have my thoughts together enough to formulate a serious reply, but I just wanted to say thanks for the laugh. That conversation example was basically the script for every giantess call I've ever had in my life! *Facepalm*

Sounds much like bratting. The brat submissive is yet another type of submissive. Not lesser, nor is another more. It's just a different mentality, and one that can be surprisingly consistent about its' quirks. The acting out can be seen as topping from the bottom, or failed communication, or just how the brat is wired.

I used to play with a gal that was that way. She would act out because she wanted to be physically corrected. It annoyed the hell out of me before I figured it out, because it made no sense. Once I figured it out, I handled it better, but by then it was too late. *shrug*

Brats aren't lesser, just different. I've told my buddy AP that he would do well to find a brat. He thrives on that sort of challenge and dynamic.

Anyway, as to physical domination, sure, there are people that work that way. I don't know that any sexual interchange could be said to be purely physical (or even purely mental) because both mental and physical play into the interchange, even when it is done long-distance with no contact. The body will react to mental, and the brain will react to physical.

That said, the physical component is undeniable in my dynamic with MIS. She is less than half my weight, and I can literally pick her up and fuck her while standing. If I want a position change, I am likely to simply pick her up and put her in whatever position I want as I am to tell her to assume said position.

One of the things I love about my current relationship is that there are no hard and fast rules, or even ever-present labels. I even once got accused of topping from the top!

D/s stuff is fun, but it's not the be-all and end-all that many make it out to be. If you are flexible enough in your relationship to explore and find out what works for you, that to me is the important stuff. Not who or why or how... just what.

So if you're topping from the top, side, bottom, upside-down and he's doing the same... does it matter? I mean, yes it's interesting to discuss the permutations and the applicability of certain "well defined" labels. But in the end, what's important is that whatever you do is working for the two (or more) of you. Whether you are "weak" or "submissive" is irrelevant in my books. So long as you have a partner that pushes your buttons (and vice-versa).

There's nothing that says you can't mix or match either. So if you want to think "well, I'm a little bit like this, and a little bit like that, and with a bit of this thrown in" you can become the cake you truly want to be! (Just remember to sieve while mixing.)

The reality is that no matter the gender, in this day and age roles and expectations are fairly interchangeable (some limitations around giving birth, for example). So most of BDSM and D/s and the like really centres around creating an agreed-on "fantasy" that applies to the people acting it out. That doesn't make it any less potent or important, but it's all about the reality you create together.

Tickling is fun though.

Homburg said:

That said, the physical component is undeniable in my dynamic with MIS. She is less than half my weight, and I can literally pick her up and fuck her while standing. If I want a position change, I am likely to simply pick her up and put her in whatever position I want as I am to tell her to assume said position.

Click to expand...

*faints*

Homburg said:

Sounds much like bratting. The brat submissive is yet another type of submissive. Not lesser, nor is another more. It's just a different mentality, and one that can be surprisingly consistent about its' quirks. The acting out can be seen as topping from the bottom, or failed communication, or just how the brat is wired.

I used to play with a gal that was that way. She would act out because she wanted to be physically corrected. It annoyed the hell out of me before I figured it out, because it made no sense. Once I figured it out, I handled it better, but by then it was too late. *shrug*

Brats aren't lesser, just different. I've told my buddy AP that he would do well to find a brat. He thrives on that sort of challenge and dynamic.

Click to expand...

I you.

BiBunny said:

I don't have my thoughts together enough to formulate a serious reply, but I just wanted to say thanks for the laugh. That conversation example was basically the script for every giantess call I've ever had in my life! *Facepalm*

Click to expand...

With what little experience I've had with this, it's been the same.


I've always been into the idea of being physically over powered, and feeling smaller. It's actually a conversation I have had with a friend of mine several times. When he holds me, I fit perfectly under his chin. He would tuck me in there and just hold me that way. It always made me feel protected and safe.

I've always been a big gal, I think that might add to the attractiveness of feeling small. Having said that, because I'm usually attracted to slimmer men, being tossed about is usually not likely. Over powered maybe, but the fantasy of being handled as Hommy so eloquently described is not likely, at least not for any extended period of time.

Homburg said:

Sounds much like bratting. The brat submissive is yet another type of submissive. Not lesser, nor is another more. It's just a different mentality, and one that can be surprisingly consistent about its' quirks. The acting out can be seen as topping from the bottom, or failed communication, or just how the brat is wired.

Click to expand...

So what's the difference between bratting and being sammy?

ETA:
I ask, because the example conversation would go over about as well as a lead balloon in my relationship.

deleted

@Homburg: Fuuu I want what you describe. And huh, bratting. Never actually thought of it as a label, was just something I did.

Also, I don't think that it's purely physical *or* mental, I just notice that many have a preferable emphasis on one over the other. I can recall a couple instances where someone has said that the "best" kind of sub is someone who is at your beck and call and will do as asked without a hint of protest, or so much as any peep at all. Stuff like that. Not that I'm personally threatened by those comments, but I just find them curious. Yannow?

@FungiUg: Not trying to debate labels, or wedge myself into one here... just contemplating the difference between more mental play (like... I dunno... emotional masochism, service-oriented behavior, or the headspace involved in M/s dynamics) versus more physical play (like resistance, pain, bondage, and in my case, tickling). I'm not saying that they're exclusive of each other, but I think that they can help you reach different kinds of happy places, and I guess I'm just curious as to what people's perspectives are on what those differences and preferences and happy places are.

(Christ I wish were better with words.)

KoPilot said:

[...] just contemplating the difference between more mental play versus more physical play. I'm not saying that they're exclusive of each other, but I think that they can help you reach different kinds of happy places, and I guess I'm just curious as to what people's perspectives are on what those differences and preferences and happy places are.

Click to expand...

I think you're right: they do explore different areas and result in differences in those "happy places". I use a (mostly random) combination of physical and mental, not sure I have a preference. I can certainly see a difference in the state my lover ends up in depending on the type of play I do with her. I think the mental play is more of an involved state, whereas with the physical she can just lose herself completely in the moment.

KoPilot said:

...mine is more along the lines of "he is stronger than me, knows every single weak/ticklish spot on my body, and can physically overpower me at the drop of a hat."

Click to expand...

Homburg said:

That said, the physical component is undeniable in my dynamic with MIS. She is less than half my weight, and I can literally pick her up and fuck her while standing. If I want a position change, I am likely to simply pick her up and put her in whatever position I want as I am to tell her to assume said position.

Click to expand...

That's the stuff that got me tiptoeing into these waters. With someone I know and trust, there's something so primal and perfect about it. I'm a wuss compared to what I've read most of you playing with, but my list of "not a chance" limits contains more mental things, while I'm open to trying most of the physical at least once (over time) just to see how it feels. Work and life are stressful enough without adding someone's mind games to the mix IMO. Besides, he'd be punishing himself if he ordered me to cook for him. I can burn boiled water.

chy_girl said:

So what's the difference between bratting and being sammy?

ETA:
I ask, because the example conversation would go over about as well as a lead balloon in my relationship.

Click to expand...

I figure the difference is in the Top's reactions.

Stella_Omega said:

I figure the difference is in the Top's reactions.

Click to expand...

Ah... So in other words, if it's something attitude related that results in the not so fun punishments it's bratty and if it's something attitude related that results in the fun punishments it's sammy?

satindesire said:

*faints*

Click to expand...

You're just trying to get someone to swoop in and catch you. I see through your ruse.

Seriously though, she weighs less than what I use for reps on the overhead press. I am working towards the point where I will be able to lift her weight overhead one-handed. That'll be fun

--

00Syd said:

I you.

Click to expand...

Heh, I just wish I'd come to that understanding earlier in that relationship. Not that I think it would've saved said relationship, but simply because I hate it when I don't handle people properly. She would've had more fun too.

--

chy_girl said:

So what's the difference between bratting and being sammy?

ETA:
I ask, because the example conversation would go over about as well as a lead balloon in my relationship.

Click to expand...

I think Stella summed it up perfectly.

chy_girl said:

Ah... So in other words, if it's something attitude related that results in the not so fun punishments it's bratty and if it's something attitude related that results in the fun punishments it's sammy?

Click to expand...

While a brat may want a serious beating on a level she can't really articulate, it is not intended to elicit a truly unfun punishment. It is a correction, nothing more.

I don't actually see much difference at all between a brat and a SAM, aside from a possible difference in how they see themselves. But, as Stella said, the top's reaction to it is where the difference lies.

The big key, IMO, is not seeing "brat" as a negative. It is just another style of submissive that needs to be handled differently. For some, that style works really, really well. The sad thing is that so many for whom it does not work see it as a negative. As a result, it isn't really talked much about and those for whom it might work are never really exposed to the opportunity.

I read a great short article that encapsulated both my personal experience with brats, as well as the characteristics of other brats that I knew. I looked for it, but couldn't find it. Very annoying, as I PM'ed it to a friend that I thought might be a brat at heart, and it affected her very deeply. For the first time, she felt like a (semi) functional part of the overall BDSM community, and not just a "bad submissive" as so many people had apparently called her.

--

KoPilot said:

@Homburg: Fuuu I want what you describe. And huh, bratting. Never actually thought of it as a label, was just something I did.

Also, I don't think that it's purely physical *or* mental, I just notice that many have a preferable emphasis on one over the other. I can recall a couple instances where someone has said that the "best" kind of sub is someone who is at your beck and call and will do as asked without a hint of protest, or so much as any peep at all. Stuff like that. Not that I'm personally threatened by those comments, but I just find them curious. Yannow?

Click to expand...

The best kind of sub, or top, or master, or just partner[/i] is the sort that fits you. What works for me is not necessarily going to work for you, or anybody else.

I'm not one for label equivocation, but "best" whatever is a big non-starter for me. I may prefer slaves, but another top, like my friend AP, wants an entirely different dynamic. He may find a girl of mine attractive, but he knows that he would not do well in a relationship with her because our taste in women are different.

.....

Homburg said:

While a brat may want a serious beating on a level she can't really articulate, it is not intended to elicit a truly unfun punishment. It is a correction, nothing more.

I don't actually see much difference at all between a brat and a SAM, aside from a possible difference in how they see themselves. But, as Stella said, the top's reaction to it is where the difference lies.

The big key, IMO, is not seeing "brat" as a negative. It is just another style of submissive that needs to be handled differently. For some, that style works really, really well. The sad thing is that so many for whom it does not work see it as a negative. As a result, it isn't really talked much about and those for whom it might work are never really exposed to the opportunity.

I read a great short article that encapsulated both my personal experience with brats, as well as the characteristics of other brats that I knew. I looked for it, but couldn't find it. Very annoying, as I PM'ed it to a friend that I thought might be a brat at heart, and it affected her very deeply. For the first time, she felt like a (semi) functional part of the overall BDSM community, and not just a "bad submissive" as so many people had apparently called her.

Click to expand...

Honestly, I didn't realize either could be seen as a negative. Everyone has bratty or smart ass moments... some are just more obvious than others. "Acting up" happens for me in both seriousness and play. At the beginning it wasn't uncommon for me to get my knickers in a twist over something I wasn't able to identify or articulate. Thankfully my People are very patient. And have a sense of humor. A very large sense of humor.

*shrugs*
Not entirely sure about about the bratty, but sammy can be extremely fun.

Thank you both for the feedback and perspective.

FungiUg said:

I can certainly see a difference in the state my lover ends up in depending on the type of play I do with her. I think the mental play is more of an involved state, whereas with the physical she can just lose herself completely in the moment.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I think the first is more mentally engaging (dur), requires a little problem solving, thinking, what have you... and with the latter you can shut your brain off and just experience the moment.

Hm. Makes me feel like a lazy pyl for wanting that. xD

Which, again, hearkens back to the fantasy dynamic of a macro/micro relationship where being handled roughly, picked up, set down, and I guess what you could call weight play (I like when S lays on me with all his weight; it's difficult to breathe, and it makes him feel bigger and heavier) would just be part of the normal interaction. The immense physical discrepancy between the two involved would be the absolute, much like how a Master's wants is the absolute in a M/s dynamic.

Homburg said:

Seriously though, she weighs less than what I use for reps on the overhead press. I am working towards the point where I will be able to lift her weight overhead one-handed. That'll be fun

Click to expand...

-faints as well-

Homburg said:

I read a great short article that encapsulated both my personal experience with brats, as well as the characteristics of other brats that I knew. I looked for it, but couldn't find it. Very annoying, as I PM'ed it to a friend that I thought might be a brat at heart, and it affected her very deeply. For the first time, she felt like a (semi) functional part of the overall BDSM community, and not just a "bad submissive" as so many people had apparently called her.

Click to expand...

Well, tits. I'd have loved to have read it. :T
-does some looking myself-

what's 'sammy'?

Kybele said:

what's 'sammy'?

Click to expand...

Sammy:

Cutsey nickname for the Acronym "Smart Assed Masochist"(SAM), I.E. a pyl who uses bratty behavior as a means to get 'punished' by his or her PYL, rather than being direct and asking for punishment.

KoPilot said:

I like when S lays on me with all his weight; it's difficult to breathe, and it makes him feel bigger and heavier

Click to expand...

You're the second person I have talked to who likes that. The first being my lover. She likes being "squished". But she also likes breath play in general.

FungiUg said:

You're the second person I have talked to who likes that. The first being my lover. She likes being "squished". But she also likes breath play in general.

Click to expand...

Interesting. I've never heard of people liking that outside of the macro community. Though I've never pinned myself as a breath-play kind of person, that would explain why she likes it.

I always saw the brat/sam thing as something that was just meant to be fun, mostly in the context of play, or at least not in the context of a long term primary relationship. I mean, I've played with people where I've been given free reign to talk back, and we had running commentary through the whole thing and we both had a blast. But obviously I couldn't sustain that all day long with someone, and I wouldn't want to. I guess I'm just thinking the brat thing is an exaggeration or blown out of proportion as a type. Not totally unlike the whole doormat thing.

KoPilot said:

Which, again, hearkens back to the fantasy dynamic of a macro/micro relationship where being handled roughly, picked up, set down, and I guess what you could call weight play (I like when S lays on me with all his weight; it's difficult to breathe, and it makes him feel bigger and heavier) would just be part of the normal interaction. The immense physical discrepancy between the two involved would be the absolute, much like how a Master's wants is the absolute in a M/s dynamic.

Click to expand...

I missed this bit first time.

I'm very much into being weighted down. it's not breath play for me and I don't really identify it as macro/micro (though I do get off on that as well). When I was a kid I used to sleep ~under~ the mattress just to feel the weight of it. sometimes I'd get my sister to lie on top of it to add extra weight.

satindesire said:

Sammy:

Cutsey nickname for the Acronym "Smart Assed Masochist"(SAM), I.E. a pyl who uses bratty behavior as a means to get 'punished' by his or her PYL, rather than being direct and asking for punishment.

Click to expand...

ahhhh! *grins in recognition*

*whistles innocently*