Humilation & Degradation

So to start with, dictionary definitions.

Humiliation

state of disgrace or loss of self-respect

chagrin: strong feelings of embarrassment

abasement of pride

a state of being humbled or reduced to lowliness or submission

Degradation

changing to a lower state (a less respected state)

The act of reducing in rank, character, or reputation, or of abasing; a lowering from one's standing or rank in office or society; diminution; as, the degradation of a peer, a knight, a general, or a bishop; The state of being reduced in rank, character, or reputation; baseness

corrupting: harmful to the mind or morals

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pyls/switches: How do you mentally and emotionally differentiate between humiliation and degradation? Do you crave/enjoy humiliation & or degradation? What do you consider to be your emotional/psychological hard limits? Do you think that to one degree or another, all forms of sexual submission involve humility? Where in your head do you draw those lines and do they move at all?

Also, if you are mid scene in a state of degradation, do you feel able to safeword? does the very nature of the scene make you feel that safewording would be weak/shameful or that you don't deserve to? If so, how do you deal with that in a healthy way?

I'm not talking about being asked to do something you find repugnant or demeaning, a physical/sexual hard limit that's easy to identify and steer clear of. I'm talking about when a PYL deliberately sets out to make a pyl experience humiliation and/or degradation. To me degradation involves a degree of objectification/dehumanization and that can be achieved by something as powerfully simple as withdrawal of attention/affection, verbal evisceration or even just a look of utter contempt.

PYLs/switches: Do you enjoy inflicting humiliation? What about deeper levels of degradation? Is it easier or harder to reconcile oneself with a desire to mentally and emotionally debase and subjugate a pyl than with physical/sexual acts of dominance and sadism? To what degree does your power or style of dominance rely on humiliating a pyl? Are the limits in a dynamic dependent more on what level of humiliation/degradation play a PYL enjoys or by what the pyl can handle and remain emotionally healthy afterwards? Have you ever pushed a pyl into degrading territory that perhaps you found you didn't enjoy as much as you expected to? How far do you trust a pyl's assessment of what he/she can handle when it comes to play like that?

Do you think that humiliation/degradation heavy scenes can be healthily enjoyed on a regular basis or should they stay in the 'special' box and only brought out when the mood is just right? Does frequent play of this kind have to inevitably lead to brainwashing/low self esteem. At what point does it become abusive and harmful if the pyl remains willing and/or blanket consent is in place?

I know I know, lots of questions. I'm hoping to spark an open debate here though that can meander along various tangents and explore the concept of humiliation/degradation in depth and from different perspectives. I've been ruminating over my own need for degradation and so it's only fair that you all get the psychic mirrors out too and tell me what you see. I do have my own, more personal perspective but for now I just want to get the ball rolling.

It's odd. humiliation or degradation have never ever done anything for me in terms of arousal and if a partner tried or did humiliate/degrade me, I wouldn't be with them. I know from what others ahve said that it can be a 'play' thing only, but it is the fastest way to literally turn me off.

That said, I don't mind being called a slut (but not a whore) and fortunately my PYL isn't into humiliation either.

Humiliation I haven't tried, degradation I have no particular interest in trying. I'm just not the sort of guy who gets off on calling his subs names.

I tend to praise my pyls during humiliating/degrading/objectification scenes to a certain extent. I think it's strength, taking something that "ought" to be shameful and turning it into pleasure.

I do let people know that, in negotiation-- that I don't do verbal abuse, and I have known a couple folk that wanted that in particular who decided not to play with me. Likewise if I'm bottoming. When a top started talking abuse at me, one time, I started laughing. It just didn't make any sense to me.

MisterSir said:

Humiliation I haven't tried, degradation I have no particular interest in trying. I'm just not the sort of guy who gets off on calling his subs names.

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Stella_Omega said:

I tend to praise my pyls during humiliating/degrading/objectification scenes to a certain extent. I think it's strength, taking something that "ought" to be shameful and turning it into pleasure.

I do let people know that, in negotiation-- that I don't do verbal abuse, and I have known a couple folk that wanted that in particular who decided not to play with me. Likewise if I'm bottoming. When a top started talking abuse at me, one time, I started laughing. It just didn't make any sense to me.

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heh, I suddenly feel slightly less freakish!

fuckmeat said:

PYLs/switches: Do you enjoy inflicting humiliation? What about deeper levels of degradation?

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No idea what "deeper levels of degradation" are.

Is it easier or harder to reconcile oneself with a desire to mentally and emotionally debase and subjugate a pyl than with physical/sexual acts of dominance and sadism?

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Neither. The danger lies in the duration of the scene, not the kind.

To what degree does your power or style of dominance rely on humiliating a pyl?

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Humiliation and dominance are completely distinct issues. Dominance does not rely on anything.

Are the limits in a dynamic dependent more on what level of humiliation/degradation play a PYL enjoys or by what the pyl can handle and remain emotionally healthy afterwards?

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Yes.

This is no either or. The PYL will try to get to his level and monitor the level of his pyl. Mind-reading is not a common trait of PYLs. It's next to impossible to never cross a boundary. At least I don't know a couple where there was never ever the "red" safeword used (except those without one, of course).

Have you ever pushed a pyl into degrading territory that perhaps you found you didn't enjoy as much as you expected to?

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No. I wouldn't know how this is possible either, I'm not a service top. I would say most "disappointments" come from pyls, who figure out that the territory they wanted to be in, is not as much fun as they read in the story section.

How far do you trust a pyl's assessment of what he/she can handle when it comes to play like that?

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I accept a "red" as "red". If it was not a "red", I won't play with her in the future. And for the rest, I ponder.

Do you think that humiliation/degradation heavy scenes can be healthily enjoyed on a regular basis or should they stay in the 'special' box and only brought out when the mood is just right?

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Yes.

You can have heavy scenes all the time, but you must be capable to put certain emotions into the special box, when it's all over.

At what point does it become abusive and harmful if the pyl remains willing and/or blanket consent is in place?

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At that point where harm is caused.

MisterSir said:

I'm just not the sort of guy who gets off on calling his subs names.

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How many subs did you have so far?

Just not into it. Too much abuse as a child, I think.

I love it when my slave asks me to, "treat her like shit".

I kind of like dancing on the edge of humiliation play, and that's all I need. As someone with a lot of unnecessary pride, and who acts on that pride even when I don't want to, it feels good to be put in my place, so to speak. I also find embarrassment to be refreshing, especially since I'm so composed all the time.

Though the minute I get called something degrading, I'm outta there.

Degradation and humilation depends on both parties. I have had some women demand to be degradated not much for humilation but some subs like to feel naughty going to some degradation levels makes the kink for them that is my expirance all depends on the level you are at.

Degradation is fine with me, actually. But then, I'm a freak (read: emotional masochist).

I don't really have a huge line between the two. All I can say is that I recognize it when I see it (for me, personally, that is). I may have emotional/psychological limits, but I haven't found them yet.

I don't think all forms of sexual submission require humility. Maybe if you're one of those types who is Ms. Billie Jo Badass but "chooses to submit to the right person," it does. But when it's something that's sort of ingrained in your personality that you're submissive, particularly in bed, but to some extent in your everyday life, then, no, I don't think it's a constant exercise in humility. It's just who I am.

And we don't do the safeword thing. I guess if I truly needed to stop, I could say so, but that's never happened. I'm far more likely to wish he'd go farther instead.

lightbulb illuminates in my twisted little mind

Emotional masochism. That's a stupidly eloquent way of putting it. Degradation to an emotional masochist is just like extreme pain to a physical masochist. All my wordyness and you sum it up just like that. Brilliant.

I am like you, in that I haven't found the bottom of that rabbithole yet. It worries me how deep it might go and how long and hard the journey back to the surface would be. It's a huge part of who I am as a masochist and slave though, I didn't realise quite how much until recently.

I think humiliation is more interwoven into other activities, not a separate freestanding thing or category. It’s more of a spur of the moment reaction to the pyl. She does something of her own initiative, I criticize the action, pointing out how it was dumb, perverse, mean, just wrong in whatever way. Sometimes just a look will do it. Simplified, to humiliate is to point out that they don’t measure up to whatever standard, and they have to care.

Degradation is setting their standard low. It’s pretty simple, just treat them like meat and bones, no soul. Well at least I find that to be easy.

hmm...there are varying thoughts here....


being called a slut, being spanked really hard because I was acting like a whore? etc...very hot.

But I think that's common.

Like stella said, if I'm *doing* something that can be defined as humiliating (licking toes? whatever LOL) i have had the PYL be very praising verbally "good girl" etc and that was pretty interesting....the contrast, etc.

But I am interesting in exploring a bit more humiliation...but I do have something that I would say is a hard limit...if called fat or ugly or stupid..I will just dry up and it won't be fun anymore.

fuckmeat said:

lightbulb illuminates in my twisted little mind

Emotional masochism. That's a stupidly eloquent way of putting it. Degradation to an emotional masochist is just like extreme pain to a physical masochist. All my wordyness and you sum it up just like that. Brilliant.

I am like you, in that I haven't found the bottom of that rabbithole yet. It worries me how deep it might go and how long and hard the journey back to the surface would be. It's a huge part of who I am as a masochist and slave though, I didn't realise quite how much until recently.

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Heh. I can't take credit for the term, that's for sure. I have a thread around here on the same subject somewhere, if you're interested. It's several years old, though.

I'm not too interested in the physical aspects of humiliation and degradation. I guess I'm sort of like the prototypical male slave in that I crave verbal abuse. Not like "slut" and "whore" and "bitch." Those are like terms of endearment to me. If someone thinks that's playing in the deep end of the verbal abuse pool, then I have no desire to play with him/her.

Most women say things like "stupid" and "fat" and whatever else are a no-go with them. Those feature in prominently for us. I AM fat, and if he avoided it like some emotional landmine, I'd a.) lose respect for him, and b.) think he wasn't honest. And as for "stupid," well, we all can be at times.

But, truthfully, to really get to the heart of what I need, you have to dig deeper than generic insults. I hide things from people, and it's not easy to find them. I'm damn sure not going to hold it out to you on a silver platter. So if you're clever enough to figure out what they are and then cruel enough to wield them against me at the appropriate time, then I have respect for you. If you can't do that, then I sorta think you're lame, honestly.

But that goes back to my need to be outsmarted, outmaneuvered, and overpowered. Most people aren't capable of that.

BiBunny said:

Degradation is fine with me, actually. But then, I'm a freak (read: emotional masochist).

I don't really have a huge line between the two. All I can say is that I recognize it when I see it (for me, personally, that is). I may have emotional/psychological limits, but I haven't found them yet.

I don't think all forms of sexual submission require humility. Maybe if you're one of those types who is Ms. Billie Jo Badass but "chooses to submit to the right person," it does. But when it's something that's sort of ingrained in your personality that you're submissive, particularly in bed, but to some extent in your everyday life, then, no, I don't think it's a constant exercise in humility. It's just who I am.

And we don't do the safeword thing. I guess if I truly needed to stop, I could say so, but that's never happened. I'm far more likely to wish he'd go farther instead.

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I guess you could call me a Ms. Billie Jo Badass I do choose to submit to one and only one person. I am not submissive by nature. But I wouldn't call that part humiliation. I would more call it degradation with the meaning of that being reduced in rank. In the military someone of lower rank is not lesser of a person but they do have less power. That is how I see the degradation in my relationship. He does not look down on me, I am not less. I am his property. More of an objectification type of thing

CutieMouse described it best for me a while back on a thread about favorite kink/play:

ecstaticsub said:

This is really hard to describe. Humiliation is completely in the eye of the beholder. I am trying to think of how to explain this without details (explaining the details would be embarrassing, while the actions themselves have been humiliating--though erotic as hell))

The only way I think I can say it is that I am a confident, intelligent, self assured woman. Daddy has found ways to bring me down a few pegs without being demeaning yet flipping that switch that enforces that I am simply his property.

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CutieMouse said:

And ES I have a feeling I know what you mean... that moment where you realize something inside you just went *ping!* and suddenly you're doing or wanting or begging for things no self-respecting, confidant, intelligent, kick-ass woman would ever consider doing, wanting, [needing], or begging to do.

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I don't get off on being called fat, ugly stupid etc because I'm not any of those things. There is simply no point for either of us for that sort of talk.

We don't have safewords anymore. If a situation comes up where emotionally I have reached a danger zone he can tell. Sometimes he backs off sometimes he doesn't. I wouldn't call it unhealthy. No long lasting negative effects n the relationship either.

ecstaticsub said:

I guess you could call me a Ms. Billie Jo Badass I do choose to submit to one and only one person. I am not submissive by nature. But I wouldn't call that part humiliation. I would more call it degradation with the meaning of that being reduced in rank. In the military someone of lower rank is not lesser of a person but they do have less power. That is how I see the degradation in my relationship. He does not look down on me, I am not less. I am his property. More of an objectification type of thing

CutieMouse described it best for me a while back on a thread about favorite kink/play:





I don't get off on being called fat, ugly stupid etc because I'm not any of those things. There is simply no point for either of us for that sort of talk.

We don't have safewords anymore. If a situation comes up where emotionally I have reached a danger zone he can tell. Sometimes he backs off sometimes he doesn't. I wouldn't call it unhealthy. No long lasting negative effects n the relationship either.

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Makes sense to me. I didn't really think submission might be considered an act of humility myself, but I thought that maybe someone who approached it differently than I do might feel another way. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

As a PYL with a taste for humiliation and degradation, I have always treated them as forms of sadism. Informed consent, clear limits, safewords, etc. all apply, as does the realization that what you are attacking is not the body but the ego.

fuckmeat said:

lightbulb illuminates in my twisted little mind

Emotional masochism. That's a stupidly eloquent way of putting it. Degradation to an emotional masochist is just like extreme pain to a physical masochist. All my wordyness and you sum it up just like that. Brilliant.

I am like you, in that I haven't found the bottom of that rabbithole yet. It worries me how deep it might go and how long and hard the journey back to the surface would be. It's a huge part of who I am as a masochist and slave though, I didn't realise quite how much until recently.

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BiBunny said:

<snip>

Most women say things like "stupid" and "fat" and whatever else are a no-go with them. Those feature in prominently for us. I AM fat, and if he avoided it like some emotional landmine, I'd a.) lose respect for him, and b.) think he wasn't honest. And as for "stupid," well, we all can be at times.

But, truthfully, to really get to the heart of what I need, you have to dig deeper than generic insults. I hide things from people, and it's not easy to find them. I'm damn sure not going to hold it out to you on a silver platter. So if you're clever enough to figure out what they are and then cruel enough to wield them against me at the appropriate time, then I have respect for you. If you can't do that, then I sorta think you're lame, honestly.

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humiliation, for me, done with someone who has a vested interest in me, feels like facing fear or truths i dont want to confront. degradation is all about taking away a lot of the pride/ego stuff that keeps me from being as open as i need to be.

that being said, if there wasn't an element of care or building back up, i'd probably end up being a sad sack of shit.

it's as Bi-Bunny said: hiding emotional scary stuff is the status quo. it takes a creative person to figure out how to eek that out. probably a patient person, too. once found, though, that "stuff" is pretty powerful to use as a way to create a connection.

How do you mentally and emotionally differentiate between humiliation and degradation?

I find it humiliating to be degraded. So I guess I don't?

What do you consider to be your emotional/psychological hard limits?

No emotional limits that I can think of. He can treat me as less than dirt and I pretty much get off on it. But there are certain physical tasks that I would find a turn off.

Do you think that to one degree or another, all forms of sexual submission involve humility?
I think to lower your personal stature in any way involves a level of humility sexual or otherwise. I don't think it's something people like to acknowledge. If you lie on your back in bed on a very base level you are submitting to your partner. If you work in customer service you are expected to submit to some pretty unreasonable treatment to keep the customer happy.

Also, if you are mid scene in a state of degradation, do you feel able to safeword?

Yes. Wouldn't be with him if I didn't.

fuckmeat said:

lightbulb illuminates in my twisted little mind

Emotional masochism. That's a stupidly eloquent way of putting it. Degradation to an emotional masochist is just like extreme pain to a physical masochist. All my wordyness and you sum it up just like that. Brilliant.

I am like you, in that I haven't found the bottom of that rabbithole yet. It worries me how deep it might go and how long and hard the journey back to the surface would be. It's a huge part of who I am as a masochist and slave though, I didn't realise quite how much until recently.

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Emotional Masochism. Yup, that's pretty much it.

Humiliation is probably an easy one to use on me, for someone who knows me well. I'm not a big fan of it though, really. Being embarrassed doesn't do a lot for me.

Degradation on the other hand. Well, I quite enjoy the reduction, the being stripped bare. Being led into the dark corners of my mind, to play with the things that dwell there and long to escape and run rampant for a bit. It's mortifying, it can hurt, it can feel so good.

It's not something I've dabbled in often though, it's terribly intense.

I also think that aftercare is required. I know, with physical play, a lot of people think aftercare is not absolutely necessary, but I think with that kind of emotional play, it absolutely is.

As for hard limits? I tend to not respond well to things that question how smart I am. I don't deal with being called stupid, or dumb. I tend to think it's an easy out, a cliche. You'd be far better off going the contrast, emphasising how the brain can't stop the body's natural response to what is happening...

Lizzie_Borden said:

I also think that aftercare is required. I know, with physical play, a lot of people think aftercare is not absolutely necessary, but I think with that kind of emotional play, it absolutely is.

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What kind of aftercare do you need after a scene like that?

fuckmeat said:

What kind of aftercare do you need after a scene like that?

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If things are really done *right* I can very much be left questioning my self worth, and my partner's feelings for me. I can't compartmentalise those feelings, put them in the 'special box' so I really need the doubts squished quickly, or they will fester a bit.

I know they're not really *real* but they still linger.

So usually, I just a lot of reassurances, and emotional closeness of the good kinds. And some food. It can be as draining as intense physical play.

Basically, if my head's been twisted up in a tangle, it needs to be straightened out again, or I'll turn it into a knot.

humiliated degraded but never verbally assaulted

What I mean when you are with your "pyl". Your partner has points that will mentally hurt and destroy a partner. And that is a scene killer or turn it to no fun For me pick on my weight for some women it is being called dumb which was a shocker how many feel that insecure with there mental capabilities i really did not know. I believe some people are attacked at work or at home with such tiny innuendos that when they are lowering there guard and trying to explore that these small flaws become mountains and are hazards to be avoided. but you could call a girl a slut or whore or a guy a fag or slithering waste of space and not mental hurt would happen. It means know your partner and try and bring out there needs and yours will be met in my experience. not much but some.