A dialog question

Thanks to anyone taking the time to read this and help me I've been writing for some time and would like to improve my grammar.

Normally when writing if my characters have one or two lines of dialog I write it this way.

Example 1
"I'd love to go for pizza!" Debbie said with a smile.

As opposed to.

Example 2
"I'd love to go for pizza," Debbie said with a smile.

A friend, who was an English major, told me that while the second example isn't wrong it isn't exactly right either. So I usually stick to example 1.

I've also used.

Example 3
"I'd love to go for pizza," Debbie said with a funny smile, "but not at Antonio's. The service there sucks."

I tend to use that less now a days though. I use it only when the second part of the dialog relies on the first part. If that makes sense?

Please comment on the above if I'm misusing something. However the reason I'm posting is this. There are often times where I have a character who has a lengthy bit of dialog and I want to show a change of attitude or facial expression during that dialog and I'm unsure of the proper way to to do it.

Even in example 3. I'd like to be able to show that she's happy she's been asked to go for pizza but that she unhappy about Antonio's.

Example 4:
"I'd love to go for pizza," Debbie said happily. Then her face scrunched up and she said, "But not at Antonio's because the service there sucks."

Would that be correct? How about this?

Example 5:
"I'd love to go for pizza!" Debbie said happily. Then her face scrunched up and she said, "But not at Antonio's because the service there sucks."

Example 6:
“Don't worry about it. We gotta stick together right?” She asked as she bumped my thigh with her hip. “Now let's get something to eat. Some food in your belly will make you feel worlds better.”

Example 7:
Debbie looked over the menu and said, "This place looks really nice. I like the menu and the selection they have here looks great." She ran her finger down the menu and smiled as she said, "They have some of my favorite dishes. I like this, and this, and this and..." Debbie suddenly looked like a confused puppy as she looked up from her menu, tilted her head and asked, "Who the heck would want anchovies on their garlic bread? That's just the weirdest thing I've ever heard!" Then she looked back at the menu and after a few moments was outright shocked as she looked at me excitedly and said, "Oh my god! They have naughty pasta here! We have to try it."

OK, most of this dialog I'm obviously making up on the fly. So forgive me if Debbie is the most annoying person in the world The big question is am I grammatically correct and if not what would be the right way to write this kind of thing?

Thanks again for reading this and any opinions offered.

Ardor

I don't find any technical errors in any of the examples. The purpose of grammar is to eliminate ambiguous speech. Every reader should see the same meaning in a sentence. Some of the rules are silly, but rules need to be consistent, so some silliness is expected.

The only hard rule for dialog is the reader must be able to determine who is speaking. After this technicality is addressed, it is the writer's craft to show nuances of mood, as the character speaks.

I can't wait until ML, SR and Snoopy show up.

Example 1 and 2 don't express the same thing. In 1, she's exclaiming, in 2 she's not.

Example 4, I would have comma'ed that sucker to death because whole dialogue is one sentence. We talk in fragments, so it's okay in dialogue, but in that instance, it appears to be a continuation of the character's thought.

Example 6,

“Don't worry about it. We gotta stick together right?” She asked

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should be: "Don't worry about it. We gotta stick together, right?" she asked . . . .

I have trouble wading through example 7. The pro's will show up soon, hopefully, and help.

Here's my amateur thought on dialogue tags, and I think AsylumSeeker disagrees with me here. Less is more. The more I write, the more I'm trying to see how much dialogue I can let stand alone. I'm trying to trust my reader and allow my characters to become the reader's characters. I read somewhere that if you build the dialogue and narrative right, the inflection will be automatically created in the reader's mind and it's cleaner and easier to move though the text. Another thing, maybe the reader will not exactly see the character as I do, but if they can relate and enjoy the story, the real goal has been achieved.

Just a thought. *shrug*

Thanks for bringing the topic up. I'm sure I'll learn something, too, as the thread goes along.

I'll just address one thing, and it's more style than grammar.

I don't feel that the exclamation point is called for in any of those examples. They're all rather low-key statements. Using exclamation points too much dulls the impact.

I try to reserve them for shouts of alarm, anger, primal squeals of delight, etc, and convey other less visceral excitement with narrative. That way, when you do use that exclamation point, it really stands out to add impact to the sentence.

As has been said, there's nothing really wrong with your examples, aside from the odd nit. In terms of style, though, they are all a bit clunky. You don't need to mention the "said" in lots of your lines e.g.:

a)"I'd love to go for pizza," Debbie said with a smile.
b) "I'd love to go for pizza," Debbie smiled.

a) Debbie looked over the menu and said, "This place looks really nice. I like the menu and the selection they have here looks great." She ran her finger down the menu and smiled as she said, "They have some of my favorite dishes. I like this, and this, and this and..."
b) Debbie looked over the menu.

"This place looks really nice. I like the menu and the selection they have here looks great." She ran her finger down the menu and smiled. "They have some of my favorite dishes. I like this, and this, and this and..."

I'm sure you catch my drift. We know that Debbie is saying something because you're using speech marks; so long as you tag it in some way, it's fine.

In examples four and five I'd drop the because and the there so it read:

"But not Antonio's, the service sucks."

Firebrain said:

b) "I'd love to go for pizza," Debbie smiled.

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Can't vocalize a smile. This would have to be two sentences. "I'd love to go for a pizza." Debbie smiled.

(Although this is rather awkward.)

The original examples are mostly OK. Some punctuation missing in other parts of the some of the sentences, though.

Agree with Dark on the exclamation point. Occasionally, in extremis, yes, but publishers consider it weak writing. You are supposed to convey the emotions in the words.

sxyoldguy said:

In examples four and five I'd drop the because and the there so it read:

"But not Antonio's, the service sucks."

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The comma needs to be a semicolon here.

Here's my amateur thought on dialogue tags, and I think AsylumSeeker disagrees with me here. Less is more.

Not sure how I ended up in this conversation. I agree with the others <not sure how to make that tongue-sticking-out-from-cheek combo>. Personally, I veer away from "said" and lean towards more descriptive offerings. A lot can be shared about characters when being more descriptive, in my mind it gives them depth.

But then who am I, really? Not good enough to write professionally, relegated to dishing out free porn. SR seems to have the pulse of the written word, not a diss to him, he really does seem to know the specifics.

Me, well, I do what I can. And I will keep on doing so. Still mastering the CMA (lol).

Not sure how I ended up being pointed out, DP, but here I am.

Debbie looked over the menu and said, "This place looks really nice. I like the menu and the selection they have here looks great." She ran her finger down the menu and smiled as she said, "They have some of my favorite dishes. I like this, and this, and this and..." Debbie suddenly looked like a confused puppy as she looked up from her menu, tilted her head and asked, "Who the heck would want anchovies on their garlic bread? That's just the weirdest thing I've ever heard!" Then she looked back at the menu and after a few moments was outright shocked as she looked at me excitedly and said, "Oh my god! They have naughty pasta here! We have to try it."

I actually prefer more active voice lately.

Debbie, looking over the menu, announced, "This place looks really nice. I like the menu and the selection they have here looks great." Running her fingers down the menu, smiling, she decided, "They have some of my favorite dishes. I like this, and this, and this and..."

Suddenly looking like a confused puppy Debbie looks up from her menu, tilting her head, and asked, "Who the heck would want anchovies on their garlic bread? That's just the weirdest thing I've ever heard!" Looking back at the menu and, after a few moments, was outright shocked while looking at me excitedly. "Oh my god! They have naughty pasta here! We have to try it."

I'm okay with exclamations, I feel it's up to the writer to set the pace and tone of the story. The writer knows what is trying to be conveyed. Just my humble opinion.

AsylumSeeker said:

Here's my amateur thought on dialogue tags, and I think AsylumSeeker disagrees with me here. Less is more.

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Not sure how I ended up in this conversation. I agree with the others <not sure how to make that tongue-sticking-out-from-cheek combo>. Personally, I veer away from "said" and lean towards more descriptive offerings. A lot can be shared about characters when being more descriptive, in my mind it gives them depth.

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My comment wasn't a criticism, but your above statement makes my point. You've said it elsewhere. I think my main point was that others will disagree with me and I'm just a hack figuring this out.

You've edited all my stuff and I think you're great. You know that. I also think you are a very good writer. Don't put yourself down and try not to be so defensive.

AsylumSeeker said:

Not sure how I ended up being pointed out, DP, but here I am.

Debbie looked over the menu and said, "This place looks really nice. I like the menu and the selection they have here looks great." She ran her finger down the menu and smiled as she said, "They have some of my favorite dishes. I like this, and this, and this and..." Debbie suddenly looked like a confused puppy as she looked up from her menu, tilted her head and asked, "Who the heck would want anchovies on their garlic bread? That's just the weirdest thing I've ever heard!" Then she looked back at the menu and after a few moments was outright shocked as she looked at me excitedly and said, "Oh my god! They have naughty pasta here! We have to try it."

I actually prefer more active voice lately.

Debbie, looking over the menu, announced, "This place looks really nice. I like the menu and the selection they have here looks great." Running her fingers down the menu, smiling, she decided, "They have some of my favorite dishes. I like this, and this, and this and..."

Suddenly looking like a confused puppy Debbie looks up from her menu, tilting her head, and asked, "Who the heck would want anchovies on their garlic bread? That's just the weirdest thing I've ever heard!" Looking back at the menu and, after a few moments, was outright shocked while looking at me excitedly. "Oh my god! They have naughty pasta here! We have to try it."

I'm okay with exclamations, I feel it's up to the writer to set the pace and tone of the story. The writer knows what is trying to be conveyed. Just my humble opinion.

Click to expand...

Debbie looked over the menu and said, "This place looks really nice. I like the menu and the selection they have here looks great." She ran her finger down the menu and smiled as she said, "They have some of my favorite dishes. I like this, and this, and this and..." Debbie suddenly looked like a confused puppy as she looked up from her menu, tilted her head and asked, "Who the heck would want anchovies on their garlic bread? That's just the weirdest thing I've ever heard!" Then she looked back at the menu and after a few moments was outright shocked as she looked at me excitedly and said, "Oh my god! They have naughty pasta here! We have to try it."


That's . . .

Uh, oh.

I'm still mulling why one is more active voice than the other and trying not to look at the change in tense in the second example.

sr71plt said:

Uh, oh.

I'm still mulling why one is move active voice than the other and trying not to look at the change in tense in the second example.

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I stopped looking.

Thanks everyone for your opinions. From what I gather I'm a bit more on track then I thought. I didn't expect it to be perfect but as long as I'm not glaringly wrong then I don't feel so bad. I always want to improve of course so that's why I asked

As I said the dialog in the examples was written on the fly. They aren't part of a story I'm working on or anything that was given huge amounts of thought to. If it was a little less then perfect that's why. I made it up on the spot just to have something to refer to.

The point wasn't really what was written but was the way it was presented correct.

Interesting point MistressLynn about the looked and looks. I'll keep an eye on that in the future.

A much more helpful response AsylumSeeker. I do find it repetitive using said all the time but I like to make it VERY clear who's speaking when I write dialog. I also like to give some kind of description of how or what emotion the character is expressing when they say something. You've given me another way to do that

sr71plt I was so tempted to put a semi colon in that sentence but I'm a little insecure about using them for some reason.

Thanks again folks

Ardor

Ardor said:

Thanks everyone for your opinions. From what I gather I'm a bit more on track then I thought. I didn't expect it to be perfect but as long as I'm not glaringly wrong then I don't feel so bad. I always want to improve of course so that's why I asked

As I said the dialog in the examples were written on the fly. They aren't part of a story I'm working on or anything that was given huge amounts of thought to. If it was a little less then perfect that's why. I made it up on the spot just to have something to refer to.

The point wasn't really what was written but was the way it was presented correct.

Interesting point MistressLynn about the looked and looks. I'll keep an eye on that in the future.

A much more helpful response AsylumSeeker. I do find it repetitive using said all the time but I like to make it VERY clear who's speaking when I write dialog. I also like to give some kind of description of how or what emotion the character is expressing when they say something. You've given me another way to do that

sr71plt I was so tempted to put a semi colon in that sentence but I'm a little insecure about using them for some reason.

Thanks again folks

Ardor

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When you use so many tags, you aren't giving the reader credit for being able to keep track themselves.



This is from a piece I began and wasn't happy with. Keep in mind this is a first draft so there may be errors. Because there are three speakers, I have more tags than what I would otherwise use. But I think it's easy to follow as well.

****

“Who the hell are you and where’s Lily?” Reed yelled, grabbing a scrawny arm and twisting it.

“What the hell? Are you nuts?” Confusion filled the young man’s blue eyes as he tried to pull loose.

“Reed, stop it!” Lily screamed as she ran into the room. “What’s wrong with you?”

“Lily? Are you all right?” Reed relaxed his hold, but didn’t let the man go, still unsure what was going on.

“This is my brother Grant. He called from town and I invited him out for a visit,” Lily said, standing between the two men.

Pulling his arm back, Grant grinned. “You must be Reed.”

“I didn’t know you had a brother,” Reed said, glaring at her.

“He’s been away for a while, studying abroad. We let a minor spat keep us from talking for over a year. When he called today . . .”

MistressLynn said:

When you use so many tags, you aren't giving the reader credit for being able to keep track themselves.

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I see what you're saying and I will keep it in mind when I write. However this might be a case where we just have different points of view.

Although to be fair nothing I've written in this post is a very good example of my dialog. I have, in some of my current writing, done things like this:

"Tammy, do you like pepperoni?" Doris asked as she looked over the list of toppings.
"Yeah, but no olives please; they give me hives."

Since Doris named Tammy in her question is seems fairly obvious who is responding.

Ardor

Ardor said:

Thanks to anyone taking the time to read this and help me I've been writing for some time and would like to improve my grammar.

Normally when writing if my characters have one or two lines of dialog I write it this way.

Example 1
"I'd love to go for pizza!" Debbie said with a smile.

Click to expand...

If there's been on going conversation with the same people and it's clear who's speaking, I don't think the dialogue tags (he said, she said, etc.) are necessary for every line. If there are two or three people speaking, it may occasionally be necessary.

But if you wanted your readers to know she was happy to go for pizza, example 1, I think would be acceptable. As an editor, I wouldn't remove it, but again, it depends on how the rest of the conversation/dialogue is going.

As opposed to.

Example 2
"I'd love to go for pizza," Debbie said with a smile.

Click to expand...

On this one, I'd actually shorten it to "Debbie smiled." (as someone did in one of their examples) and move the dialogue after her 'action.'

Debbie smiled. "I'd love to go for pizza."

I know what DK said about exclamation marks, but depending again on the conversation/dialogue, I might add an exclamation mark.

Debbie smiled. "I'd love to go for pizza!"

A friend, who was an English major, told me that while the second example isn't wrong it isn't exactly right either. So I usually stick to example 1.

Click to expand...

That's the kicker with a lot of things. So many things in the English language are "not exactly wrong but not exactly right either" and it gets confusing. When in doubt, I look it up.

I've also used.

Example 3
"I'd love to go for pizza," Debbie said with a funny smile, "but not at Antonio's. The service there sucks."

I tend to use that less now a days though. I use it only when the second part of the dialog relies on the first part. If that makes sense?

Please comment on the above if I'm misusing something. However the reason I'm posting is this. There are often times where I have a character who has a lengthy bit of dialog and I want to show a change of attitude or facial expression during that dialog and I'm unsure of the proper way to to do it.

Even in example 3. I'd like to be able to show that she's happy she's been asked to go for pizza but that she unhappy about Antonio's.

Click to expand...

I'd probably write example 3 the same way or perhaps re-word it a bit:

"I'd love to go for pizza," Debbie said with a funny smile. "As long as it's not Antonio's, the service there sucks."

Or, you could use something like this:

Debbie smiled. "I'd love to go for pizza!" Her smile changed to a slight frown. "As long as it's not Antonio's, the service there sucks."

I think if you keep the actions of the character and the dialogue all in the same paragraph, it'll clearly show the reader who's speaking.

Example 4:
"I'd love to go for pizza," Debbie said happily. Then her face scrunched up and she said, "But not at Antonio's because the service there sucks."

Would that be correct? How about this?

Click to expand...

See my examples above.

Example 5:
"I'd love to go for pizza!" Debbie said happily. Then her face scrunched up and she said, "But not at Antonio's because the service there sucks."

Click to expand...

The only difference between 4 and 5 that I see is the exclamation mark. In this instance, I think it works, but as DK said, don't over use them.

Example 6:
“Don't worry about it. We gotta stick together right?” She asked as she bumped my thigh with her hip. “Now let's get something to eat. Some food in your belly will make you feel worlds better.”

Click to expand...

“Don't worry about it. We gotta stick together right?” she asked as she bumped my thigh with her hip. “Now let's get something to eat. Some food in your belly will make you feel worlds better.”

As far as I can see, this is fine except for the "she" after the question mark. In dialogue, unless you're using a period or an action, the first letter of the next sentence shouldn't be capitalized (as I've noted above)

If you wanted to do this a different way:

“Don't worry about it. Remember, we gotta stick together." She bumped my thigh with her hip. “Now let's get something to eat. Some food in your belly will make you feel worlds better.”

I took out the question and made it a statement. In this case "she" would be capitalized because it starts a new sentence.

If it were like this:

“Don't worry about it. Remember, we gotta stick together,” she said as she bumped my thigh with her hip. “Now let's get something to eat. Some food in your belly will make you feel worlds better.”

The "she" in this paragraph wouldn't be capitalized.

Example 7:
Debbie looked over the menu and said, "This place looks really nice. I like the menu and the selection they have here looks great." She ran her finger down the menu and smiled as she said, "They have some of my favorite dishes. I like this, and this, and this and..." Debbie suddenly looked like a confused puppy as she looked up from her menu, tilted her head and asked, "Who the heck would want anchovies on their garlic bread? That's just the weirdest thing I've ever heard!" Then she looked back at the menu and after a few moments was outright shocked as she looked at me excitedly and said, "Oh my god! They have naughty pasta here! We have to try it."

OK, most of this dialog I'm obviously making up on the fly. So forgive me if Debbie is the most annoying person in the world The big question is am I grammatically correct and if not what would be the right way to write this kind of thing?

Thanks again for reading this and any opinions offered.

Ardor

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On example 7, I'm guessing MistressLynn's look of shock was at your repetitive use of the word "look". Perhaps you could find alternatives to "look". Maybe try "glance" or "gaze" or "peruse". How about something like this:


Debbie perused the menu and said, "This place seems really nice. I like the menu and the selection they have here looks great." She ran her finger down the menu and smiled as she said, "They have some of my favorite dishes. I like this, and this, and this and..." Debbie suddenly looked like a confused puppy as she glanced up from her menu, tilted her head and asked, "Who the heck would want anchovies on their garlic bread? That's just the weirdest thing I've ever heard!" Then she turned her attention back to the menu and after a few moments was outright shocked as she gazed at me excitedly and said, "Oh my god! They have naughty pasta here! We have to try it."

Still gets the point across, but cuts it down to two variations of "look" instead of seven.

Any story with this type of dialogue in it is how I'd edit things. Am I right? Who knows, but as I said, when in doubt, I look it up.

Ardor said:

I see what you're saying and I will keep it in mind when I write. However this might be a case where we just have different points of view.

Although to be fair nothing I've written in this post is a very good example of my dialog. I have, in some of my current writing, done things like this:

"Tammy, do you like pepperoni?" Doris asked as she looked over the list of toppings.
"Yeah, but no olives please; they give me hives."

Since Doris named Tammy in her question is seems fairly obvious who is responding.

Ardor

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I agree, in that example, you wouldn't need a "Tammy replied" or "Tammy responded" tag there because it's clear who's speaking. Of course, you'd have to move Tammy's dialogue to her own line.

MistressLynn said:

Debbie looked over the menu and said, "This place looks really nice. I like the menu and the selection they have here looks great." She ran her finger down the menu and smiled as she said, "They have some of my favorite dishes. I like this, and this, and this and..." Debbie suddenly looked like a confused puppy as she looked up from her menu, tilted her head and asked, "Who the heck would want anchovies on their garlic bread? That's just the weirdest thing I've ever heard!" Then she looked back at the menu and after a few moments was outright shocked as she looked at me excitedly and said, "Oh my god! They have naughty pasta here! We have to try it."


That's . . .

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We shall have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid. I prefer active voice, I feel it flows better, at least to my eyes.

AsylumSeeker said:

We shall have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid. I prefer active voice, I feel it flows better, at least to my eyes.

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What made the other example not active voice? (And I don't think it's the active voice she's quibbling with, AS).

This is probably a thread best put to bed now.

On another thread I recommended reading Leo Marks' memoir, BETWEEN SILK AND CYANIDE. Much of the book is dialogue or unspoken thoughts, feelings, etc. And Marks was a successful screenwriter after World War 2.

Marks was an audacious and aggressive kid during the war, and occasionally his remarks,actions spun about on a dime when he suddenly became aware that he fucked up and was wrong about something or someone. That is, his voice changed from active to passive quickly. Passive voice, labile affect (emotions), incongruencies between words & deeds, all make it clear whats going on with his actors. Exactly as he writes screenplays.

The active voice is a plain bagel when its all you put on the menu.

AsylumSeeker said:

We shall have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid. I prefer active voice, I feel it flows better, at least to my eyes.

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We've disagreed before, and that's cool.

sr71plt said:

(And I don't think it's the active voice she's quibbling with, AS).

This is probably a thread best put to bed now.

Click to expand...

You're right in both cases.

MistressLynn said:

We've disagreed before, and that's cool.



You're right in both cases.

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I'm no English expert, have never professed to being one. I am a decent editor at best, and apparently those writers I have assisted appreciated my style. I do what I can do.

And so here we are before the impasse. I just do what I can do, no less, no more. I learn as I go, trying to become a better editor, and hopefully a better writer as well.

JAMESBJOHNSON said:

On another thread I recommended reading Leo Marks' memoir, BETWEEN SILK AND CYANIDE. Much of the book is dialogue or unspoken thoughts, feelings, etc. And Marks was a successful screenwriter after World War 2.

Marks was an audacious and aggressive kid during the war, and occasionally his remarks,actions spun about on a dime when he suddenly became aware that he fucked up and was wrong about something or someone. That is, his voice changed from active to passive quickly. Passive voice, labile affect (emotions), incongruencies between words & deeds, all make it clear whats going on with his actors. Exactly as he writes screenplays.

The active voice is a plain bagel when its all you put on the menu.

Click to expand...

You did and I made note of it, but failed to respond. It sounds interesting, both in subject matter and as a writing primer. Thanks.