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Old 05-25-2014, 10:41 PM   #1
Steve150177
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sub or volentary slave?

In my reading of stories here I came across a story that defined a voluntary slave as 'one that can't leave'. Since I had been thinking about exactly what is a voluntary slave I messaged him and posted a comment.

Let me 1st define what I mean. I'm talking about the closest thing possible to "abject slave" or total slave that is possible and still be SSC. What a 'sub' is is self evident.

It seems to me that an abject slave has no choice. "No choice" is what defines abject slavery. But, how can that still be SSC?

2nd, I'm talking about loving relationships. Loving Master and loving slave. The slave would not enter into such a relationship unless a] she trusted her proposed Master with her life [literally] and she had a compelling need in her heart or soul to submit to a dominate man. Both are necessary.

So, this is what I came up with:
The closest thing to abject slavery in a SSC context is:
a] No limits, beyond what the law does not allow. No broken bones, nothing that would require a trip to a hospital to be safe and sure. Etc.

b] No hard safe word, just the soft yellow sort that stops play and causes a discussion of what is wrong. And no abuse of it either. Perhaps: "mercy".

c] The slave must obey all orders with out hesitation and submit to all punishments.

d] Sharing with others, other Masters, is a definite possibility. Most slaves were intended to be shared.

e] Some mechanism that makes it seem like she can't just up and leave. I'm not sure what that would be. Maybe a 24 hour waiting period. Waiting in chains.

Is all this still SSC? Remember I'm talking about a loving relationship.

There would still be a slave contract. These would be among the terms.
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Old 05-25-2014, 11:03 PM   #2
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One person's "total slave" may not be the same as another person's "total salve" - which is why it's often suggested one know who they're submitting to.

NO limits -
Some people only engage in BDSM activities with people who have similar limits, and thus describe themselves as having "no limits" [because neither party have any interest in engaging in XYZ activity].

Safe words -
Not everyone uses them. Not doing so, is not an indicator of abuse, or ignoring SSC.

The slave must obey all orders/ accept punishment -
Some people do things this way; some don't. Some dominants (or masters) delegate a hell of a lot (after all, one of the things s-types are supposed to be good for, is making life easier). Some relationships don't do punishment, at all.

Sharing -
Polyamory isn't a requirement of BDSM. Some people enjoy "sharing" their partner; some don't. "Most slaves were meant to be shared"? By who's rules?

Can't leave -
Why would a mechanism (like chains) be necessary for someone who WANTS to be in the relationship, and has consented to do so? Are chains necessary to prevent divorce? Some people believe in this thing called commitment...

Contracts -
Again, lovely for some but not legally enforceable. I often wonder if contracts are more of a fictional/ erotica/ online thing, as I have rarely (if ever) met anyone who uses a formal contract in real life.

Honestly, the above all sounds like it's gleaned from erotica. Fiction is fiction; real life is real life.
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Old 05-26-2014, 12:20 AM   #3
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Smile

Thank you CutieMouse for your reply.

Yes, I suppose that my experience is mostly with erotica. That is, of course, my loss.

However, is this discussion board only for "real life" or can we talk about erotic literature also?
After all, this is a literature site.

So, maybe my thoughts mostly apply to erotic stories, like the ones you might read here. In that context what do you-all think?

Of course, not everyone is going to agree. After all, not everyone agrees on what the word "Christianity" means. When it gets to anything as personal as religion or sex, agreement is unlikely. But, that doesn't mean people don't/can't talk about it.
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Old 05-26-2014, 12:33 AM   #4
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C is for consensual. If those are the terms of the relationship, then those are the terms. But it's still up to both parties to keep their interactions safe and sane.

BDSM erotica and porn can make it seem like fear and tears in sexual encounters are hot, hot, hot!! Sometimes they are , and sometimes they aren't.

"No limits" can pose a challenge for some who willingly enter into the agreement on both sides of the power exchange, because - in fact - limits still exist. When you hit those limits, the sensitivity of each partner to the other's well-being is critical, but often muddied by sadistic and masochistic desires.

Sometimes, the M/s dynamics in our relationship seem like the best thing that's ever happened to us. Sometimes, I think it's made us hate each other just a little bit more - because we can't ever erase the moments when we crossed lines that can't be redrawn.
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:00 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve150177 View Post
So, maybe my thoughts mostly apply to erotic stories, like the ones you might read here. In that context what do you-all think?
I'm afraid I'm the wrong person to ask; I'm painfully pragmatic about my proclivities. Pragmatic enough that I rarely (almost never) bother to read erotica. I simply can't ignore reality long enough to accept the fictionalization of things that are part and parcel of my day to day life.

So the ideas might work for some - there are kinks for everyone out there, and as soon as you think you've seen/ heard everything you'll realize you haven't - but... [for me, personally] meh.
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Old 05-26-2014, 01:14 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve150177 View Post
Thank you CutieMouse for your reply.

Yes, I suppose that my experience is mostly with erotica. That is, of course, my loss.

However, is this discussion board only for "real life" or can we talk about erotic literature also?
After all, this is a literature site.

So, maybe my thoughts mostly apply to erotic stories, like the ones you might read here. In that context what do you-all think?

Of course, not everyone is going to agree. After all, not everyone agrees on what the word "Christianity" means. When it gets to anything as personal as religion or sex, agreement is unlikely. But, that doesn't mean people don't/can't talk about it.
It doesn't seem like anything that would fit the nonconsent category, if that's what you're asking.
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Old 05-26-2014, 02:16 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve150177 View Post
So, maybe my thoughts mostly apply to erotic stories, like the ones you might read here. In that context what do you-all think?
If that's the context here then yeah, sure, do whatever gets you off, end of discussion, really. Fantasy and real life are 110% different things, and the latter makes for much more conducive discussion.

On that note, you might check out the train wreck that is the "those that do" thread that's still on the front page here.
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Old 05-26-2014, 06:41 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve150177 View Post
Most slaves were intended to be shared.
You could argue that most toys were intended to be shared too, but I am not sure every kid out there would agree with you.
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Old 05-27-2014, 05:50 PM   #9
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I've been writing these insane vignettes, inspired by random hentai images, in which people actively request bodily modifications, take drugs, engage in hypnosis in order to render themselves helpless. They not only consent, they instigate their own conditions. And there are no safe words, and, once such a person has singed themselves over, they have no rights of autonomy.

In my fantasy world, of course, none of them are horrifically abused-- only delightfully abused. And no one gets too old, or tired of their status... or gets headaches or charley horses.

And everybody can read minds.

And there's a lake of stew, and gingerale too, you can paddle all around it in a big canoe.

My Id, let me show it to you...
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Old 05-31-2014, 09:33 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post

And there's a lake of stew, and gingerale too, you can paddle all around it in a big canoe.

kiddie lyrics? it's a song about hobo paradise; Whiskey or nothin.

as a folk song from the turn of 18-1900's that song had more verses than amazing grace. All I remember of it is my mom yelling at my grandpa for singing any of them to me. My impression was that the song was more filthy than not, because he could just whistle it for a "don't you dare."

Here's the "dirty excerpt" from wikipedia

The punk rolled up his big blue eyes
And said to the jocker, "Sandy,
I've hiked and hiked and wandered too,
But I ain't seen any candy.
I've hiked and hiked till my feet are sore
And I'll be damned if I hike any more
To be buggered sore like a hobo's whore
In the Big Rock Candy Mountains


It's entirely likely this is confabulation, but I vaguely recall something to the effect of

There's a cot by the door
with a mongrel whore
who will take away all your troubles
and you can sleep all day
with no call to pay
in the big rock candy mountain.

theres no job to make
no rock to break
between you and your dandy
cuz they hung the jerk
that invented work
in the big rock candy montains

the meters don't match, so probably not actual verses (or not complete ones).... I can't figure out how to sing the verses from wikipedia though, so I probably remember the tune wrong a bit.

Of course, in too many fictional BDSM paradises, all the hyper competent doms know a litany of trivia about everything like that till you want to drag them into the real world and strangle them.
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Old 06-01-2014, 03:03 PM   #11
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Damn!
I only knew it from Pete Seeger's childrens concert.
I always thought those old hobos were pretty sweet guys, to love lemonade like that.

edit: I suddenly remember the little streams of alcohol trickling down the rocks, I guess that was Burl Ives.
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Old 06-04-2014, 10:33 AM   #12
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It has been a while since I posted this. Long enough for everyone to weigh in.

So, I did not get many thoughtful replies.

To those who were thoughtful, thank you.

But, I really wonder if many missed the 2 important words. 1] "Loving" as in loving relationship. And 2] "Abject" as in abject slave.

I said I was talking about a loving relationship. Not abuse. So, yes there will be limits in reality. They are just never stated. The slave knows her Master will not abuse her/him. The slave knows that "yellow" is enough of a safe word, because she/he trusts her/his Master with her/his life literally.

I said abject slave to differentiate from a 24/7 slave or weekend slave. I said this is what the slave wanted/needed. Not what was to be imposed.

To the guy who mentioned divorce -- divorce is like my chains, it works to hold the marriage together over the rough times. I said I was not sure what the mechanism could/should be!! The 24 hr. wait to just walk away from being an abject/total slave is a whole lot less stringent than going through a divorce to end a marriage!!! I am too polite to really say what I think of that part of your reply.

To the people who wandered all over. I don't understand your thoughts.

It is amazing to me how quickly you-all gather around a new female poster to offer support, but how rapidly you-all seem to form a pack to rip a new male poster to shreds. What is it with you people?
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Old 06-04-2014, 11:20 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve150177 View Post
It has been a while since I posted this. Long enough for everyone to weigh in.

So, I did not get many thoughtful replies.

To those who were thoughtful, thank you.

But, I really wonder if many missed the 2 important words. 1] "Loving" as in loving relationship. And 2] "Abject" as in abject slave.

I said I was talking about a loving relationship. Not abuse. So, yes there will be limits in reality. They are just never stated. The slave knows her Master will not abuse her/him. The slave knows that "yellow" is enough of a safe word, because she/he trusts her/his Master with her/his life literally.

I said abject slave to differentiate from a 24/7 slave or weekend slave. I said this is what the slave wanted/needed. Not what was to be imposed.

To the guy who mentioned divorce -- divorce is like my chains, it works to hold the marriage together over the rough times. I said I was not sure what the mechanism could/should be!! The 24 hr. wait to just walk away from being an abject/total slave is a whole lot less stringent than going through a divorce to end a marriage!!! I am too polite to really say what I think of that part of your reply.

To the people who wandered all over. I don't understand your thoughts.

It is amazing to me how quickly you-all gather around a new female poster to offer support, but how rapidly you-all seem to form a pack to rip a new male poster to shreds. What is it with you people?


I think you are missing what everyone has mostly been saying. BDSM, D/s, M/s PYL all works differently depending on the parties involved.

Being an "abject slave" in a "loving relationship" can be all kinds of things. Is it still SSC? It depends on the parties involved. Clearly if a contract is entered into on both sides and one person decides to put complete faith in the other's ability to care for them then that is a SSC relationship for them.

In your first post you listed off the qualities of what you thought this relationship model included. For you, that might make sense. The problem is that it varies and differs from person to person. So, did you want us to nod and say, "Yeah, that list covers it, here's a few more to add to the list?" Or did you want us to come up with our own list? Perhaps we have the option of giving feed back from our own experiences that may not have had anything remotely as strict as what you speak of?

In order to receive more "thoughtful replies" one should probably visit their own thread more often. Perhaps asking specific questions to people who have replied or continuing the conversation from a point that may have been brought up.

Please give examples/links for your comparison of new female support threads and new male bashing threads.

As far as I can tell, when a female poster comes on asking for help, we generally like to offer help because they are clearly not "in the know" and may actually be in real danger. As for new male posters that aren't "supported" show me a male poster asking for help that is possibly in an abusive relationship where the replies have generally been to tear him to shreds?

From what I've seen, this forum is pretty equal opportunity... I've watched different genders have their asses handed to them when they post something that warrants a negative reaction. Whether they were female, male, or trans (and so much more).
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Old 06-04-2014, 09:18 PM   #14
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MeekMe wrote, "Please give examples/links for your comparison of new female support threads and new male bashing threads."

I'll have to look for some examples, but I did mean to imply that the new male was being abused. Yes, I think many of the females you-all rally around were being abused, but the males usually just seemed to be saying something that they wanted to share with you-all.

I will look for examples.
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Old 06-04-2014, 11:20 PM   #15
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I love the word "abject" because it rings my bells. But really-- what does it mean in the context of relational D/s?
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Old 06-05-2014, 01:18 AM   #16
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My relationship models always revolve around power dynamics, and my lover[s] get what they want. Period. Which, one might say puts me in the "abject" category.

HOWEVER...

I'm f*ck all picky about my relationships [compatibility ranks very high on my "must have" list], and don't do BDSM outside of a loving relationship. And as someone who has had loving relationships based on power exchange, the OP's description of such makes no sense to me whatsoever.
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Old 06-05-2014, 02:46 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
I love the word "abject" because it rings my bells. But really-- what does it mean in the context of relational D/s?
Ding ding ding. I tried to answer this thread when it first emerged, but I couldn't figure out what abject slave meant in this context, especially as opposed to 24/7 slave, so I didn't answer. Then I got distracted and forgot to ask what the OP meant with those words.
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Old 06-05-2014, 09:47 AM   #18
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Ding ding ding. I tried to answer this thread when it first emerged, but I couldn't figure out what abject slave meant in this context, especially as opposed to 24/7 slave, so I didn't answer. Then I got distracted and forgot to ask what the OP meant with those words.
My understanding of the word abject when applied to the word slave, "abject slave (slavery)" is the denial of all human decently, along with the denial of most basic human needs and rights to a person or group of persons. Which even if it would happen to be consensual, it's surely not safe nor sane.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:01 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Dyslexicea View Post
My understanding of the word abject when applied to the word slave, "abject slave (slavery)" is the denial of all human decently, along with the denial of most basic human needs and rights to a person or group of persons. Which even if it would happen to be consensual, it's surely not safe nor sane.
That's how I understand the word as well (after checking the dictionary ) and that's why I have trouble connecting it with a loving relationship. But the OP contrasted "loving, abject slavery" with "24/7 slavery", rather than "abject slavery" with a "loving relationship" as I would have expected. That's where I got confused. Because certainly in a loving relationship at least [some of] the basic human needs are met, otherwise I wouldn't call it loving.
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:08 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Dyslexicea View Post
My understanding of the word abject when applied to the word slave, "abject slave (slavery)" is the denial of all human decently, along with the denial of most basic human needs and rights to a person or group of persons. Which even if it would happen to be consensual, it's surely not safe nor sane.
Hm... I can agree with this. Though, I thought more along the lines of the abject slave basically having no self worth. I wonder how that works in public... Is the abject slave allowed out in public? Do they get to have friends?

These questions don't really matter, though. The OP wanted to get as close to a Slave as possible. In erotica, I'd say it sounds more like non con. Kidnap virginal girl, torture her into submission, and then keep her locked in your house as a slave.

There you have it! No safe word (maybe mercy), can't leave (always keep your kidnapped slaves in chains ), she will always submit and take punishments, and when his friends come over she's fun for the whole party. And of course he loves her! He's doing this for her own good. Sounds like my kind of date!

My thoughts have been scrambled lately, so what I'm seeing now is that if it's consensual and loving there wouldn't be a "no leaving" plan in place to keep her there...
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Old 06-05-2014, 10:29 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Steve150177 View Post
It is amazing to me how quickly you-all gather around a new female poster to offer support, but how rapidly you-all seem to form a pack to rip a new male poster to shreds. What is it with you people?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve150177 View Post
I'll have to look for some examples, but I did mean to imply that the new male was being abused. Yes, I think many of the females you-all rally around were being abused, but the males usually just seemed to be saying something that they wanted to share with you-all.
I'm one who has and will continue to rip, as you put it, some of the men who post here, new and old alike but I've done so to women posters as well, at times regrettably in both cases.

There are reason for this. First many of the new men who post here do so rather arrogantly, if not with their original post their follow up posts show their arrogance. Mind you it's not only the women here who react badly to this kind of behavior, many of the male regulars do also.

Secondly many of the men posters do just as you did, make a statement ask for input and then when we give our opinions become offended because we don't show them(you) submissiveness by agreeing with you. That attitude reeks of male privilege. Many of the women who post here are submissive in one way or another, including myself, but we're not submissive to you, nor are we door mats. As a matter of fact most of the women here are strongly feministic and we all choose who we do submit to not the other way around.
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Old 06-05-2014, 12:51 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve150177 View Post
It has been a while since I posted this. Long enough for everyone to weigh in.

So, I did not get many thoughtful replies.

To those who were thoughtful, thank you.

But, I really wonder if many missed the 2 important words. 1] "Loving" as in loving relationship. And 2] "Abject" as in abject slave.

I said I was talking about a loving relationship. Not abuse. So, yes there will be limits in reality. They are just never stated. The slave knows her Master will not abuse her/him. The slave knows that "yellow" is enough of a safe word, because she/he trusts her/his Master with her/his life literally.

I said abject slave to differentiate from a 24/7 slave or weekend slave. I said this is what the slave wanted/needed. Not what was to be imposed.

To the guy who mentioned divorce -- divorce is like my chains, it works to hold the marriage together over the rough times. I said I was not sure what the mechanism could/should be!! The 24 hr. wait to just walk away from being an abject/total slave is a whole lot less stringent than going through a divorce to end a marriage!!! I am too polite to really say what I think of that part of your reply.

To the people who wandered all over. I don't understand your thoughts.

It is amazing to me how quickly you-all gather around a new female poster to offer support, but how rapidly you-all seem to form a pack to rip a new male poster to shreds. What is it with you people?
To me, your question is to theoretica and at the same time too detailed.
It gets confusing.
Is this about a story or real life or just you enjoying constructing theories?
How is abject different from 24/7?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve150177 View Post

It seems to me that an abject slave has no choice. "No choice" is what defines abject slavery. But, how can that still be SSC?
If you had stuck with just this question, it would have much easier for me ro answer.
I don't know and it couldn't be for me. I hear from others that it works for them though and you will too if you read a bit here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve150177 View Post
MeekMe wrote, "Please give examples/links for your comparison of new female support threads and new male bashing threads."

I'll have to look for some examples, but I did mean to imply that the new male was being abused. Yes, I think many of the females you-all rally around were being abused, but the males usually just seemed to be saying something that they wanted to share with you-all.

I will look for examples.
I think you nailed the difference there.
When coming from a stranger, I have a question about this or that is much easier to answer than I have this idea/theory/epiphany I want to share/enlighten you about.
If you post things that requires people to get into your world of thoughts and ideas you are asking them to invest their time.
Posting about not getting thoughtful replies or enough or fast enough replies usually doesn't make them more willing to do that.
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Old 06-06-2014, 07:08 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
I love the word "abject" because it rings my bells. But really-- what does it mean in the context of relational D/s?
It depends on are we talking about RL or a Lit story, I suppose. I'll try to explain.

Somewhere in the Western world [USA, Canada, Europe, etc.] there is a couple in a BDSM relationship. The pyl [I'll go with sub who is female] has always had desires to be a slave, to be used hard, to have no choice. She goes to her PYL [I'll go with Dom for now] to explain that she needs more. Much more. Lately she has been fantasizing lately what it would be like to be a true slave. A girl taken and trained by force.

She asks her Dom if he could take their relationship up a level. She explains what she thinks she wants. My thoughts are what the Dom comes up with.

I suppose that I was going to the ultimate extreme. I tend to do that when I argue. I'm not sure it lets me win all that often but it feels good to me. {An example: I'm talking to someone about guns and gun rights. I go to the extreme -- obviously some "arms" or weapons must be banned from the general public. He says no! I say, really? What about nuclear bombs, poison gas, germs, shoulder fired heat seeking anti-aircraft missiles? Once he agrees that those weapons must be banned. I explain that now the "principle" has been breached, now we are talking about where to draw the line. We are no longer arguing that the Gov. can't ban some weapons.}

Anyway, I was seeing it as a thought experiment, a challenge, could I recreate the situation of an abject slave and still have it be SSC.

BTW the word slave has had many "meanings" in different cultures at different times. The Hebrews of Exodus (Bronze Age) are called slaves, yet they owned animals and had enough gold to make a golden calf. The Blacks of pre-Civil War USA are pretty close to the other, abject, extreme. Clearly, thinking of the Hebrews as having the same situation/rights as Blacks is just wrong.
BTW2 I think that true slavery [for males at least] did not come about until the iron age. In the Bronze Age metal was too scarce and valuable to "waste" chaining up menial workers. It was a far better use to use it to arm and armor the soldiers who defended the "nation". And workers can't work if they have their hands tied behind their backs.
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