Love is unethical

Love is not consensual. You don't agree to love. You can't stop it.

Love is not mutual in most cases. If you love someone, you are not guaranteed to be loved in return.

Love can die, again without your consent. You can't bind it with a contract or other means.

Love is not fair. You can't prevent to fall in love with someone, therefore you can't prevent to fall in love with someone else.

Love is neither safe nor sane. Love makes you do very stupid things. It can even get you killed, either as lover or loved.

Love does not serve any purpose.


If you spend time with a person that loves you, you are not better than a guy who slips a date rape drug into a drink. The consent is fake. It's not based upon rational thoughts.

Love is not a chubby cherubim with a bow. Love is a predator. It does not take your wishes into account. You can't argue with it. You can't bribe it. You can't control it. Love does, what Love pleases.


This all leads to the only inevitable conclusion:
Love is unethical.

Are you sure you're talking about love? And not lust? or infatuation?

eastern sun said:

Are you sure you're talking about love? And not lust? or infatuation?

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Which parts are not true for love?

Primalex said:

Love does not serve any purpose.

...

Love is unethical.

Click to expand...

~smile~

I can only assume you've never experienced true love.

Good luck with your effort to discredit love.

The Case for Love

Love strengthens self-respect, in the lover and the one loved.

Love respects consent and the lack of consent.

Love tolerates no deception.

Love is patient and thorough.

Love never places a beloved at risk.

Love delights in the sharing of discovery and exploration.

Love needs no previous experience.

Love heals.

Love has meaning, not just for one night, but night after night after ...

Love isn't lonely.

Love is much more than lust.

Love challenges us to be our best, because it demands of us that we care for another as much as we care for ourselves.

As we would not deny ourselves our best, so too do we not deny our best to those we love.

To be our best we must be willing to grow, to learn, to explore and discover, always respecting our selves and each other.

Love offers all of this to those who have the courage to believe in themselves, to respect themselves, to respect others.

Love offers itself to those who turn their backs on Fear.

Love offers itself to those who choose to be what they were born to be.

Human.

--

excerpt from "Casual 'BDSM' and Emotional Abuse: The Case for Love"

Love is not an easy path.

Love takes away the freedom to not care, to be disrespectful, to harm another, to be thoughtless, to be less than we are capable of being.

Love isn't satisfied with us being lazy.

Love demands the best from each of us, all the time.

Love demands we learn to do better, so we can be better lovers for those we love.

Love doesn't have room for egotism.

Love is a group dynamic.

Love is cooperative.

Love is the ultimate challenge.

Love requires we find the courage to be vulnerable, to reveal ourselves completely and to trust another with our hearts.

Love is its own reward.

---

excerpt from "The Little Things: Excerpts from the notebook of a romantic BDSM master"

Love is ...

Love is the ultimate confirmation.

In Love we do not live for ourselves alone.

We live for another as well.

We are needed, essential to the well-being of another.

Those who have never known this may scoff.

Those who have loved and been loved will never forget it

And no substitute will ever provide satisfaction.

Love is incomparable.

Only through Love can we learn to be all that we can be.

Only Love provides the necessary motivation to strive for perfection.

Beside Love everything else is mundane, trivial, inconsequential.

We only have one life with which to make a choice.

I choose Love.

I need to be all I can be.

I need to discover my full potential.

Without Love, it will never happen.

---

excerpt from Ibid

Promises to Live By

I will hope for the best from you.

I will have faith in you.

I will believe you.

I will trust you.

I will respect you.

I will discuss with you.

I will listen to you.

I will teach you.

I will learn from you.

I will cherish you.

I will care for you.

I will heal you.

I will need you.

I will be there for you.

I will stand up for you.

I will understand you.

I will love you ...

... Always ...

---

excerpt from Ibid

Aaaaand the fish takes the bait.

I probably need to define my terms.

In my understanding, love is the basic foundation on which the universe "holds together," and doesn't fall into total chaos and confusion.

Thinking about it that way, love is always present, never dies, is by definition fair (if you consider the laws of cause and effect fair), provides the fundamental conditions for safety and sanity to exist, and serves a profound purpose. And love is, in my opinion, mutual because everyone has love at the core.

So why don't we all live in peace and harmony and - love?

I think it's because we try to fight the laws of cause and effect.

We call our lust and desire and possessive attachment "love." And then when we don't get our way, blame it on the irrational nature of "love," as though if the universe really loved us, we would always get exactly what we want.

I think it's awfully kind of the universe to be as predictable as it is.

00Syd said:

Aaaaand the fish takes the bait.

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~smile~

Let's see if you have the gear to land it

eastern sun said:

So why don't we all live in peace and harmony and - love?

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We experience the universe in three dimensions, not four.

In three dimensions we see ourselves as dictinct and disconnected entities. Such concepts as "you" and "I" can only exist within three dimensions.

However, the universe is a four dimensional structure. Viewed through four dimensions there is nothing distinct or disconnected from the universe.

In four dimensions there are no concepts such as "you" and "I".

Everything we see as distinct in three dimensions is connected in four dimensions.

We are all a part of one thing: the universe.

BLoved said:

We experience the universe in three dimensions, not four.

In three dimensions we see ourselves as dictinct and disconnected entities. Such concepts as "you" and "I" can only exist within three dimensions.

However, the universe is a four dimensional structure. Viewed through four dimensions there is nothing distinct or disconnected from the universe.

In four dimensions there are no concepts such as "you" and "I".

Everything we see as distinct in three dimensions is connected in four dimensions.

We are all a part of one thing: the universe.

Click to expand...

I agree with you, though I understand the dimensionality of the universe differently.

eastern sun said:

I agree with you, though I understand the dimensionality of the universe differently.

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Will you share that understanding?

My understanding is based purely on physics. While I posit a self-aware universe, I've little proof to support the position.

BLoved said:

Will you share that understanding?

My understanding is based purely on physics. While I posit a self-aware universe, I've little proof to support the position.

Click to expand...

Well, mine is also based on physics. The most recent I've read posits a multi-dimensional universe, in which we are only able to perceive four dimensions.

As I understand it, with time (or space-time) as the fourth dimension, "you" and "I" are still solidly perceivable to each other in all four dimensions.

BLoved said:

Love strengthens self-respect, in the lover and the one loved.

Click to expand...

Love kills self-respect, if you love but are not loved.

Love respects consent and the lack of consent.

Click to expand...

Love does not care about consent or lack of consent.

Love tolerates no deception.

Click to expand...

Love tolerates everything.

Love heals.

Click to expand...

Love hurts.



By the way, you didn't write a single argument why love is ethical.

eastern sun said:

Well, mine is also based on physics. The most recent I've read posits a multi-dimensional universe, in which we are only able to perceive four dimensions.

As I understand it, with time (or space-time) as the fourth dimension, "you" and "I" are still solidly perceivable to each other in all four dimensions.

Click to expand...

The particles that make up our bodies are products of the big bang.

All particles in the universe are products of the big bang.

Trace each particle back to the big bang and all particles were part of one singularity, indistinct from each other as no particle existed at the time of the big bang, they were produced as a result of the big bang.

Thus the particles in you trace their existence back to that instant if we travel back in time, where they are indistinguishable from the particles in me, which we can trace from that instant to now.

In a sense, we are two ends of the same thread.

We can do this with all particles in the universe, thus we are two ends of a thread with a near-infinite number of ends, each end being a particle in three-dimensional space, all linked together and indistinguishable from one another in the singularity which produced the big bang.

To view the universe in four-dimensions is to see all particles as threads leading back to the singularity, and thus connected to every other particle that was spawned by the singularity.

Just as a time-elapsed photograph of a person walking shows a blur as the particles that make up that person pass through the four dimensions of space-time.

Primalex said:

Love kills self-respect, if you love but are not loved.

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If one 'loves' for personal gain it is not love.

True love is given for the benefit of the one loved, to do with as he or she pleases. Love does not force itself upon anyone, nor does it make demands of the beloved.

Love does not care about consent or lack of consent.

Click to expand...

Love is always a choice. No one can be forced to love, nor forced to receive love.

Love tolerates everything.

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Incorrect. Love understands, which is different from tolerates.

I understand why people are abusive without tolerating abuse.

Love hurts.

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Incorrect. It is not love that hurts, but the expectations people place upon a beloved that can lead to pain.

By the way, you didn't write a single argument why love is ethical.

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~smile~

I suggest you re-examine your definition for "ethics".

Concern for the well-being of others over one's self is highly ethical.

That is why so many countries honour those who demonstrate such concerns, such as police, fire-fighters, soldiers.

Why do you think so many are willing to risk their lives to save others?

That is love.

Primalex said:

You don't agree to love. You can't stop it.

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Right.

Which is why love is neither ethical nor unethical. As with all emotions, it's what you do in response that matters.

BLoved said:

Love strengthens self-respect, in the lover and the one loved.... [and so on, and so on, blah-bitty-blah]

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Damn, man! Somewhere in Kansas City, MO is the perfect job for you.

BLoved said:

The particles that make up our bodies are products of the big bang.

All particles in the universe are products of the big bang.

Trace each particle back to the big bang and all particles were part of one singularity, indistinct from each other as no particle existed at the time of the big bang, they were produced as a result of the big bang.

Thus the particles in you trace their existence back to that instant if we travel back in time, where they are indistinguishable from the particles in me, which we can trace from that instant to now.

In a sense, we are two ends of the same thread.

We can do this with all particles in the universe, thus we are two ends of a thread with a near-infinite number of ends, each end being a particle in three-dimensional space, all linked together and indistinguishable from one another in the singularity which produced the big bang.

To view the universe in four-dimensions is to see all particles as threads leading back to the singularity, and thus connected to every other particle that was spawned by the singularity.

Just as a time-elapsed photograph of a person walking shows a blur as the particles that make up that person pass through the four dimensions of space-time.

Click to expand...

I recognize both Indra's net and quantum physics (especially the discovery that two particles that were once connected respond simultaneously to changes in the other), and I like the time-elapsed photograph imagery turning particles into threads . . . but I'm curious how you attribute consciousness to your physical description of the universe.

eastern sun said:

. . . but I'm curious how you attribute consciousness to your physical description of the universe.

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~smile~

If we accept that everything within the universe is physically connected throughout time, and we accept that we are a self-aware species, then how can the universe be any less self-aware than us?

It would be like saying the cells at my fingertips are self-aware entities, but I am not.

I fully recognize this is not proof, but I find the logic compelling.

BLoved said:

~smile~

Let's see if you have the gear to land it

Click to expand...

BLoved said:

~smile~

I can only assume you've never experienced true love.

Good luck with your effort to discredit love.

Click to expand...

BLoved said:

~smile~

If we accept that everything within the universe is physically connected throughout time, and we accept that we are a self-aware species, then how can the universe be any less self-aware than us?

It would be like saying the cells at my fingertips are self-aware entities, but I am not.

I fully recognize this is not proof, but I find the logic compelling.

Click to expand...

All of these smiles look the same. Are they?

eastern sun said:

All of these smiles look the same. Are they?

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~smile~

They are.

The efforts of the immature elicit a smile of understanding as they reveal how threatened they feel and how desperate they are to relieve themselves of that burden. They puff themselves up and hiss in the hopes I'll go away.

Reminds me of my cats when they were kittens and how they'd hiss when one of my dogs passed by, the dog blissfully unaware of the consternation he or she had caused the kitten. With repeated exposure and experience the cats lost their fear of the dogs and now think nothing of seeking out the dogs' attention/affection.

~smile~

The curious elicit a smile of understanding as curiosity is an indication of their maturity. It takes an uncommon degree of maturity and confidence to open one's self to the points of view of others, to seek out their opinions. The ability to ask an honest question when others are losing their heads is a rare quality on forums like this.

Back in 2006 when I was just a lurker on this forum, there was a poster who regularly triggered people's indignation and then, once the fury was in full motion, simply said "dance, monkeys, dance."

Truth be told, I swore to myself way back then I would never be a "dancing monkey."

I began posting, and had to hold myself in check when someone's response to my post was critical or challenging. Because I felt really threatened. My heartbeat would race. My adrenalin would start pumping. Usually I would wait to respond (but not always) until I had cooled down.

Once I had cooled down, I often found that what I had read into the poster's comments was not actually there. My own prejudices, fears and opinions were filtering the content of their message (as their prejudices, fears and opinions were filtering the content of mine).

Sometimes, when I was particularly bored with the board (and feeling isolated and withdrawn) I would turn from my computer with the thought "pearls before swine." I would pump myself up with the feeling that I was above all that pettiness and fury.

But I want to say - loudly and clearly - that over the years, I have witnessed genuine acts of generosity and love shared on this forum that put me and my petty pumped-up ego to shame. I have watched people develop genuine friendships, receive support and care during difficult times, and offer heartfelt love and concern that went far beyond the boundaries of casual sexual desire and fantasy-building.

I have been humbled. And been forced to admit to myself that my unwillingness to "dance" has at times kept me also from being in a position to catch someone when they needed a hand to keep from tripping or stumbling. I have watched others hold each others' hands in dark times and marveled at the genuine love they were able to give and receive.

Keep an open mind.

I've also watched some vicious attacks on this forum.

Keep an open mind.

It's the monsters in the closet that teach us what not to fear. And sometimes the presence of "enemies" (or "trolls") is a ripe opportunity to deepen your understanding of love.

eastern sun said:

And sometimes the presence of "enemies" (or "trolls") is a ripe opportunity to deepen your understanding of love.

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I read Kahlil Gibran's "The Prophet" when I was 13. His response to the question on Love inspired a lifetime of exploration into the concept of Love, which led me to a need to understand ethics, which led me to a need to understand humanity.

I'm forty years down that process, and still exploring.

"BLoved" is not a title. It is advice. The best I can give.

I am not surprised you've witnessed acts of love and friendship. It is our human nature that gives rise to Love. We fight against our own humanity to deny it and should we succeed we are the poorer for it.

Any practice which denies, denigrates or abuses Love is essentially inhuman.

All such practices are motivated by Fear.

They are all dysfunctional, the result of love denied them when they needed it.

I keep in mind they were all newborn babies once, innocent and unaware of concepts such as cruelty. To become cruel, to choose to behave in a cruel manner they must have been taught cruelty by another. In other words, they themselves experienced cruelty to such a degree that it broke them.

Recognizing that their current behaviour is the result of past abuse renders them lovable despite their dysfunctional behaviour. They did not ask to be abused, and it is not their fault they were not better prepared to overcome the damage such abuse caused them.

This is not to absolve them of responsibility for the cruelty they perpetrate against others. They are still adults, they are responsible for their choices and they are free to recognize and address their dysfunctional behaviour. Indeed, the fact they are adults and are free to choose means that if they refuse to recognize and address their dysfunctional behaviour it will continue to plague them and others for the rest of their lives. No one else has the power to force them to address these issues.

And so I find myself loving the abuser while hating the abuse. I recognize the abuser is a victim of abuse, and no less human than I. The difference between them and I is that I had sufficient preparation and support to overcome the adversity I faced where they did not.

So no, it doesn't surprise me that they are capable of acts of charity towards others. That is the irrepressible humanity in them clawing its way to the surface.

But you will notice they feel no charity towards me. ~smile~

That is because I challenge them to recognize and address their dysfunctions, and casual 'bdsm' is indeed a dysfunction. By its nature it denies Love, which is why there have been no attempts to defend it through ethics, which is why there has been so much character assasination and other immature attempts to shut me up.

This is to be expected. They've been broken through abuse, and so they encase themselves in armour and anyone who challenges their paradigms is treated as a threat in the cruelest manner possible.

~smile~

It is not for them I write. Their minds are closed and they will not hear. Should a seed I plant germinate within one of them it would be wonderful, but I do not expect this.

It is for the benefit of those who would like to explore bdsm but do not wish to be abused that I speak. By demonstrating the two-facedness of casual advocates and how the side they would prefer to hide is filled with cruelty and malice without concern for ethical or honourable behaviour that I best demonstrate the dangers of casual 'bdsm'.

If the advocates cannot behave in a mature, civil and honourable manner on a public forum, what can be said about their recommendation regarding casual 'bdsm'?

~smile~

I challenge them to argue their ethics and they respond with character assasination.

And if they are capable of this in public, what more are they capable of in private where there are no witnesses?

I've been on this journey for 40 years, and I'm looking forward to where my path takes me over the next 40.

Who knows what I will learn next.