Weakness

Keroin

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A number of things triggered this thread for me.

First, reading a brief discussion of M/D-type vulnerability and s-type reactions to such, in Eastern Sun’s, always inspiring, “Marks of a Slave” thread.

Second, the chapter I am currently writing and revising. In which, one very strong and capable protagonist “lowers” herself for the other protagonist – and enjoys it.

Third, (deep breath), my own struggle to accept weakness, or what I perceive as weakness, in myself and others.

Fourth, a letter I received today from a former co-worker/boss/friend, with whom I had a falling out several years ago and to whom I sent an apology about a year ago.


I think it was the last instance that really started the gears grinding. My reaction to the letter was instantly aggressive, defensive and hackle-raising. It took a conscious effort to calm myself and re-read with an open mind. This I did and was shocked, on the second reading, to see that there was nothing in the letter deserving of my initial reaction. In fact, most of the comments were spot on and were not an invocation of blame, merely an expression of feelings.

When I asked myself why I’d reacted so harshly, the answer was an unpleasant one.

To acknowledge the truth of what my friend was saying was, in my mind, to admit to my own weakness. I hate being weak. I hate it more than just about anything. And this hatred I feel extends to the weakness I see or imagine in others - to a lesser degree but, still, it exists.

And it’s disturbing, to me, when I sit back and take stock of how very many behaviors I consider “weak”.

Yeah, it’s a very ugly part of me and one I’m not proud of.

And yet…

It’s gotten me through the darker moments of my life. I have a strong survival instinct and my fear/loathing of weakness is a key component of that. To abandon the part of me that always slaps my face and screams, “Be a man!”, (in the voice of Marlon Brando, from The Godfather, I should add – and yes, I know I’m not a man), well, that scares the hell out of me. I don't think I could function without that facet of my personality.

But here’s the thing…what is it? What is real weakness, what is real strength? Does it bother other people to be weak? Do they even think or care about strength or weakness? Does it matter?

I know, this thread is a bunch of babbling and navel gazing but this is something I’m arm wrestling with right now.

Blah, blah, blah…
 
Weakness- I'll have to give that some thought.

Strength is going to take a story to explain. Short- strength is the ability to keep moving, to not give up... even if your moving is just treading water at least you are not sinking.

The story- In my younger years my dad left my mom. The situation was bad and it was best for everyone... but it did not end well and my mother sister and I were left in a bad spot as far as money, housing, etc.

My sister and I continued to go to school (college) and my mom went back to school and took a graveyard shift after having been a stay-at-home for nearly thirty years. It was hard but our motto became "we can do anything for a year". That is strengh to me; one foot in front of the other toward the light at the end of the tunnel.

I know its probably not the strength you are asking about but that is what came to mind when I read your post.
 
Weakness- I'll have to give that some thought.

Strength is going to take a story to explain. Short- strength is the ability to keep moving, to not give up... even if your moving is just treading water at least you are not sinking.

The story- In my younger years my dad left my mom. The situation was bad and it was best for everyone... but it did not end well and my mother sister and I were left in a bad spot as far as money, housing, etc.

My sister and I continued to go to school (college) and my mom went back to school and took a graveyard shift after having been a stay-at-home for nearly thirty years. It was hard but our motto became "we can do anything for a year". That is strengh to me; one foot in front of the other toward the light at the end of the tunnel.

I know its probably not the strength you are asking about but that is what came to mind when I read your post.

No, I think that is an excellent example of strength.

It's a story I can relate to somewhat. When I left my ex-husband, I was penniless and broken. Those were difficult times and some days it took everything in me just to get out of bed and face another day. But, yeah, I just trudged forward. I didn't feel strong at the time but, looking back, that was the strongest I've ever been.

ETA: Reminded me of that part in Kipling's poem, "If"...

If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on";
 
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Weakness, what weakness? I has no weakness.

:rolleyes:

I constantly try to be strong, and will measure other people with my own yardstick.

Mostly I compare other men to myself. Most fall horridly short. Some are trying, and that's cool. Others around the same level are friends, or respected.

Women, I don't know, totally different experience so I can't judge them so much unless they adhere to the manly code. So then I judge them too.

Maybe I shouldn't do all that, but you know when people learn about some of the things I've done, or see what I am capable of, they tend to start worshiping. So there is some reinforcement.


Subs however, they are exceptional, and strong in a different way. I'll tell you how.

In simplest terms.

When I see someone trying to be their own. Self reliant, one man island. I compare theirs to mine and if they fail fuck em. They sign up for it so screw them.

Subs, who live for others, that is different, and separate rules apply. To give yourself, to sacrifice, that is admirable. Subs do not live according to the strong/weak thing me and you have. They do something else entirely.

Honestly I don't understand subs, and probably never will. I don't know what they do. All I know is whatever it is, it's very right, useful, and makes you feel damn good.
 
Subs, who live for others, that is different, and separate rules apply. To give yourself, to sacrifice, that is admirable. Subs do not live according to the strong/weak thing me and you have. They do something else entirely.

Honestly I don't understand subs, and probably never will. I don't know what they do. All I know is whatever it is, it's very right, useful, and makes you feel damn good.

Hm. Interesting. Perhaps that is why I feel the "sub" label is so inaccurate for me?

And yet...

Hm. Interesting.
 
*snip*
But here’s the thing…what is it? What is real weakness, what is real strength? Does it bother other people to be weak? Do they even think or care about strength or weakness? Does it matter?

I know, this thread is a bunch of babbling and navel gazing but this is something I’m arm wrestling with right now.

Blah, blah, blah…
Your timing is ironic, to say the least.

Weakness is unacceptable for me. I can forgive such a human trait in others (to an extent), but it is one I've yet to be able to forgive in myself.

For me strength means being able to pull yourself up and out, not ever needing to depend on someone else. Being untouchable by the outside, or at least faking it well enough that any wolves lose interest.

When it comes to "Being Strong" my country girl kicks in and I get in this "fuck you" mindset where I can go farther and take more than anyone around, and 95% of the time I do even if it results in injury to myself. But there's still a part of me, a rather large part of me, that would rather be hurt than be weak. Go figure.

There's simply something about not being able to do it all on my own that isn't ok. It probably has to do with the past and there's no doubt that my stubbornness when it comes to Being Strong is more of a deficit than a bonus, but the idea of showing that much of my underbelly is both terrifying and enraging. Perhaps if I were a better woman I'd take the time to redefine what strength and weakness are but I'm not good enough to give up the grip on the biggest factor that helped me keep breathing this long.

:rose:
Thank you for the opportunity to clarify something that's been going on in my own head and I hope you find the answers you're looking for.
 
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In my own recent experience.. there's strength, weakness and then sheer stupidity. I have all three.

I decided it was time to fix my car, turned out to be a three day job and I had to disassemble part of the suspension just to get an alternator out.. fucking Fiero's.

After having been sick, in and out of the hospital, lost over 40 pounds in the last six weeks with no appetite and nearly complete liver failure that I'm just now starting to pull out of. I can barely handle the weight and torques of some of the things I'm having to move or work with because I've lost most of my muscle mass. I forgot to eat and ended up passing out yesterday.

Keep in mind the difference between stupid and strong and weak.
 
Your timing is ironic, to say the least.

Weakness is unacceptable for me. I can forgive such a human trait in others (to an extent), but it is one I've yet to be able to forgive in myself.

For me strength means being able to pull yourself up and out, not ever needing to depend on someone else. Being untouchable by the outside, or at least faking it well enough that any wolves lose interest.

When it comes to "Being Strong" my country girl kicks in and I get in this "fuck you" mindset where I can go farther and take more than anyone around, and 95% of the time I do even if it results in injury to myself. But there's still a part of me, a rather large part of me, that would rather be hurt than be weak. Go figure.

There's simply something about not being able to do it all on my own that isn't ok. It probably has to do with the past and there's no doubt that my stubbornness when it comes to Being Strong is more of a deficit than a bonus, but the idea of showing that much of my underbelly is both terrifying and enraging. Perhaps if I were a better woman I'd take the time to redefine what strength and weakness are but I'm not good enough to give up the grip on the biggest factor that helped me keep breathing this long.

:rose:
Thank you for the opportunity to clarify something that's been going on in my own head and I hope you find the answers you're looking for.

Thanks and you're welcome. The part in bold hits on some of it for me. Of my faults, weakness is the one I consider least excusable. Moments I have succumbed to (my definition of) weakness are moments engraved on my memory. Much to my dismay.

Now, having said that, I recognize that my feelings are often illogical. Knowing that, I have learned to alter my reaction to said feelings and consequent behaviour. This is a step in the right direction but perhaps it's the furthest step I will be able to take?

Interestingly, I don't have a problem with L's moments of weakness or vulnerability. In light of his excessive macho-ness, I consider them a welcome break from his normal, "nut up or shut up" demeanor.

However, in the case of the letter from the friend I spoke of, my inability to curb my aversion to my own weakness drove a wedge between us. That's unacceptable to me.

In my own recent experience.. there's strength, weakness and then sheer stupidity. I have all three.

I decided it was time to fix my car, turned out to be a three day job and I had to disassemble part of the suspension just to get an alternator out.. fucking Fiero's.

After having been sick, in and out of the hospital, lost over 40 pounds in the last six weeks with no appetite and nearly complete liver failure that I'm just now starting to pull out of. I can barely handle the weight and torques of some of the things I'm having to move or work with because I've lost most of my muscle mass. I forgot to eat and ended up passing out yesterday.

Keep in mind the difference between stupid and strong and weak.

Oh Bett, I hope you feel better.

I'm lucky that my Spock brain prevents me from the bulk of my stupid impulses but you are correct. There's often a fine line between strength and stupidity.
 
I don't know. I think age has helped me give myself permission to not always be strong. To permit me to be human.

I've always considered myself to be a strong woman. There have been times when it's been tested...hugely...but I know that I'm a survivor, and take great comfort in that. Surviving and always being strong are not the same though.

I still recall a 'discussion' that I had with myself decades ago. Part of me wanted to talk a problem I was having over with a good friend; the other part of me argued that I'd appear weak to her, that I didn't need her to help me. And much as I wanted to, I never talked to my friend. Silly isn't it?


Talking about strength and weakness though, I need to add something that relates to men only. Because society requires men to be strong, even when I personally think it's ridiculous, to me, when a man is capable of being vulnerable...not necessarily to the whole world, but to someone/those who are important to him...I think that shows great strength.
 
In my own recent experience.. there's strength, weakness and then sheer stupidity. I have all three.

I decided it was time to fix my car, turned out to be a three day job and I had to disassemble part of the suspension just to get an alternator out.. fucking Fiero's.

After having been sick, in and out of the hospital, lost over 40 pounds in the last six weeks with no appetite and nearly complete liver failure that I'm just now starting to pull out of. I can barely handle the weight and torques of some of the things I'm having to move or work with because I've lost most of my muscle mass. I forgot to eat and ended up passing out yesterday.

Keep in mind the difference between stupid and strong and weak.

This. Kind of less extreme in a lot of ways, but sometimes I'm weak, sometimes stupid, sometimes superhuman strong. There are things I'm great at and things I'm horrific at, and I think actual weakness, the kind I scoff at, is not being able to cope with that kind of humanity. Which everyone has.

I used to be the "must be the strong one can't possibly fold, hold it together" force of adulthood in my family, and then I found the strength to say "fuck that." I fall apart when I fall apart, drink when I'm thirsty, and fuck when I'm horny, I'm brave when I'm brave and beat a fine retreat when I want to do that, too.
 
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I don't measure myself nor others by strong and weak anymore.
Actually I don't think I ever had. Perhaps because I've never been a competitive person. The only person I compete with is myself.

What I measure and value is resiliency and character. Strong, weak are not always depending on us. Illnesses can mess up with it. Outside stresses can mess up with it. And ultimately, as it has been pointed out by others as well, we all have our own human limitations.

I have many flaws and I'm still learning not to make excuses for myself.

But one thing that I know is that I'm resilient. No matter what will happen, I know I'll keep on going, doing what has to be done, sucking it up if I have to, accept help when it is offered (still working on asking for it), and crying in desperation and frustration at time. But I will never be destroyed.
 
I tend to view weakness as not being true to yourself.

Failing at things, ugly personality traits, poor behaviours.. there's nothing inherently weak about those sorts of things if you're honest, upfront, and make a concerted effort to do something about it.

But to lie to yourself, to take the easy route, to skate... that's weakness.

eta: Succummbing for brief periods probably doesn't count, because you can dig yourself out of those moments. I'm meaning more the people who constantly, without fail, live that way
 
I tend to view weakness as not being true to yourself.

Failing at things, ugly personality traits, poor behaviours.. there's nothing inherently weak about those sorts of things if you're honest, upfront, and make a concerted effort to do something about it.

But to lie to yourself, to take the easy route, to skate... that's weakness.

eta: Succummbing for brief periods probably doesn't count, because you can dig yourself out of those moments. I'm meaning more the people who constantly, without fail, live that way

This is a more concise version of what I'm trying to say.

Do you do the things people around you want you to do, or whatever you think you "should" do because you draw strength from that, or because you simply lack the imagination to even realize you are doing that?
 
But here’s the thing…what is it? What is real weakness, what is real strength? Does it bother other people to be weak? Do they even think or care about strength or weakness? Does it matter?

A few, somewhat disjointed thoughts ...

Real weakness is to be foolish enough to believe you are invulnerable, or should be so.

Real strength is to accept our humanity, a humanity where we are capable of falling down knowing that we have the courage to stand up again.

No person is perfect. No person is self-contained. Humanity evolved as a social animal, relying upon one another to meet our collective needs.

It is only in degenerate societies where people lose the ability to trust others that we begin to see this need to be self-reliant, self-sustaining, invulnerable to harm.

Real weakness comes from denying our humanity. We insist it is a crime to trust, a crime to be naive, a crime to love, a crime to expose our frailty for fear of the scavengers claiming us for their own.

By allowing fear to manipulate us, we distance ourselves from each other, hold each other in contempt, ridicule the frailty of others to demonstrate how little we need help from anyone.

And yet, the most noble of human qualities: compassion, charity, cooperation all require of us the courage to trust in others, to have faith that despite their frailties others will respond in kind ... to recognize that hardship need not be our lot in life, that each of us has the capacity to improve the lives of others.

By allowing love to guide us, we find that it is okay to be frail, to be prone to misfortune, to fall down ... for with the help of those who love us we will stand again.

A baby who does not trust his mother would not eat. We are born to trust in others.

Without love, a mother would not feed the baby. We are born to love and be loved.

Only when we understand it is our nature to trust and love can we find real strength, for only then do we accept the imperfections of humanity, in others and in ourselves.
 
It doesn't matter how strong you think your body is, put enough plates on the bar and you won't be able to lift it.

It doesn't matter how strong you think your will is, get pushed far enough and hard enough and you will break.

Nothing out there is strong enough for everything. I've snapped hardened steel wrenches with my bare hands trying to wring a bolt off. Everything has a breaking point.

Real strength has nothing to do with that, IMO. It is about facing those things that you cannot turn away from because duty demands it. Whether it is duty to family, to ethics, to self, to morals, or that which you believe in, it doesn't matter. If you face it anyway, you are strong enough, plain and simple.

And no offense to those rabid self-reliant individualists, but there is strength (and intelligence) in accepting that you can't always go it alone. Trying to convince yourself that relying on anyone else is weakness is crossing the line from strong into stupid. A lot of people die in the backcountry each year hiking alone when they find out that they aren't strong enough to out-hike a broken leg.

You have weaknesses. So do I. Weaknesses do not make you weak.

(See the "marks of a slave" thread for the rest of this line of thought.)
 
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This is a more concise version of what I'm trying to say.

Do you do the things people around you want you to do, or whatever you think you "should" do because you draw strength from that, or because you simply lack the imagination to even realize you are doing that?

Mostly it's because I feel like I should. There's a certain degree of social responsibility, playing the role of sister, daughter, friend, co worker, partner and the little compromises you make to keep the peace in the world around you. But that shouldn't stop you from doing what you want with your life either, provided you're not hurting anyone. It's a balance.
 
I can identify with what you're saying in the first post. I constantly mentally beat myself up for what I see as my weaknesses, while others keep saying how strong I am, and I do admit I sometimes perceive others (not all, just some) as being weak. I don't tend to be that open about my own experiences over the last couple of years, though it does sometimes come up through others or being questioned. Problem with perception is we are all different and what I have found over time is that people do not always tell others about what they have done or survived, and sometimes that piece of knowledge can make a lot of difference in the perception. Just because someone accepts something, or seems to act in a particular way, does not always mean that is the whole story. I try to remember that, but admittedly it is sometimes hard to imagine things are different to how they appear.

Catalina
 
Wow. Thanks everyone for the insightful responses. Lots to chew on here. I'll dip in and respond here and there.

I don't measure myself nor others by strong and weak anymore.
Actually I don't think I ever had. Perhaps because I've never been a competitive person. The only person I compete with is myself.

I think my competitive nature factors into this. Now, my competitiveness and overacheiverness, on their own, I believe, are more beneficial, (to me and others), than harmful, however, once my weakness-phobia starts to blend with them then they become dangerous. Or, at least, unpleasant.

I like being competitive, I like striving to be better, I never want to lose that. I do want to lose that part of me that says "if you're not good enough, you're weak".

But one thing that I know is that I'm resilient. No matter what will happen, I know I'll keep on going, doing what has to be done, sucking it up if I have to, accept help when it is offered (still working on asking for it), and crying in desperation and frustration at time. But I will never be destroyed.

I believe resilience is a form of strength. That whole statement, Rida, is dripping with strength.

I tend to view weakness as not being true to yourself.

Failing at things, ugly personality traits, poor behaviours.. there's nothing inherently weak about those sorts of things if you're honest, upfront, and make a concerted effort to do something about it.

But to lie to yourself, to take the easy route, to skate... that's weakness.

eta: Succummbing for brief periods probably doesn't count, because you can dig yourself out of those moments. I'm meaning more the people who constantly, without fail, live that way

In another thread, recently, Gracie made a statement that I thought was really cool - the gist was basically that 'I know that I am X and I'm not going to lie to myself about it'. She is taking steps to deal with X, as well. To me, that attitude conveys strength of character.

Real weakness is to be foolish enough to believe you are invulnerable, or should be so.

No, I don't believe I am invulnerable.

No person is perfect. No person is self-contained. Humanity evolved as a social animal, relying upon one another to meet our collective needs.

Agreed. Hubby often uses the term "interdependent", which I like.

It is only in degenerate societies where people lose the ability to trust others that we begin to see this need to be self-reliant, self-sustaining, invulnerable to harm.

And no offense to those rabid self-reliant individualists, but there is strength (and intelligence) in accepting that you can't always go it alone. Trying to convince yourself that relying on anyone else is weakness is crossing the line from strong into stupid. A lot of people die in the backcountry each year hiking alone when they find out that they aren't strong enough to out-hike a broken leg.

OK, here's something I feel the need to comment on. I'm fairly self reliant but I do not feel I need to be completely self-reliant, in fact, just the opposite. I believe that my willingness to seek out assistance and instruction and support from others is one of my strengths.

Woe to the poor person who ever offers to help me with something I'm interested in because they will be bombarded by questions. LOL.

OK, example time! I'll go with writing because that is an area in my life in which I have voraciously and unapologetically sought help...

Oops...friend just showed up at the door, more later.

You have weaknesses. So do I. Weaknesses do not make you weak.

(See the "marks of a slave" thread for the rest of this line of thought.)

It was actually ES's thread that inspired many of my thoughts.

Later skaters
 
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OK, where was I?

Interestingly, (perhaps), I don’t always equate self reliance with strength. In fact, often just the opposite is true for me. As competitive as I can be, I recognize that I really, really need other people in order to get better at things or to acquire new skills. When it comes to my writing, I have joined writing groups, sought out mentors and tapped various people on the shoulder to be test readers for me.

To me, someone who refused to seek help with something important to them, that would strike me as weakness. The inability to put ego or fear or whatever it is that prevents one from seeking help is not strength.

Having said that, when it comes to deeply personal stuff, I’m a rock. Not good. I remember when I finally confessed to my mom that my soon-to-be-ex was an alcoholic and a nasty one. She was shocked, she couldn’t understand why I hadn’t come to her or my dad earlier, as they would have been happy to talk with me about it and get me out. Yeah, why didn’t I? Just figured I’d gotten myself into the mess and it was up to me to get myself out. Silly girl.

When it comes to emotional stuff, I tend to play close to the vest. This is the arena where I feel, for me, that sharing and asking for help displays weakness. Even this thread crosses way, way, way over my comfort level line. But hey, I’m a gambler at heart.
 
When it comes to emotional stuff, I tend to play close to the vest. This is the arena where I feel, for me, that sharing and asking for help displays weakness. Even this thread crosses way, way, way over my comfort level line. But hey, I’m a gambler at heart.

Analyze any good story. What makes the hero/heroine lovable?

In each and every case, the quality required to make them lovable is that they have the courage to be vulnerable in front of another.

... much as you are doing here.
 
In another thread, recently, Gracie made a statement that I thought was really cool - the gist was basically that 'I know that I am X and I'm not going to lie to myself about it'. She is taking steps to deal with X, as well. To me, that attitude conveys strength of character.

This reminds me so, so much, of this failed experiment we suffered through at work a few years ago.

The goal was to help everyone realise what they could work on, to do a better job, to be a better co worker, to make the company a better place.

The plan; solid. The execution; piss poor.

We ended up doing these surveys, on ourselves, and (anonymously) on the individuals we worked with, ranting their performance in the way they worked, how the related on a personal level, whether they were good ambassadors for the company, whether they were confident, and could keep confidences, and deal honestly with people. AND there was space for free forming comments.

And then, the "data" was collated, and then one by one we had a sit down with the GM, and the woman who ran the testing from the HR deptartment.

Interwebz based Epic Fail posters were borne of these moments.

I *knew* how mine would turn out. I knew some parts of it would be ugly. I was young, and prone to some decent tanties over various injustices, and two facedness, and crap. I hadn't yet learned how to play office politics.

So I fronted up to my meeting, and copped it on the chin. It didn't phase me, I knew each and every single one of my bad points, I acknowledged them, and announced I was willing to work on them so long as someone pointed me in the right direction. I surprised the GM, he actually said "We know this isn't real flash, yes? But, I will say, you know yourself remarkably well, and that's an admirable quality"

And so, I learned to pull my head in, I learned to play the game.

Those that thought the sun shined out of their asses, who ran around saying "I don't care what this thing says!" who kept living in their little bubbles... they came out of their meetings in tears, and continued to bitch and moan and gripe about the whole thing until I told them to get the fuck over themselves.

Knowing thyself, the good, the bad and the ugly, is truly confrontational, but it means you'll never be caught short when it's time to nut up and be your own person. If you need to rely on others, and what you think those others think of you to bolster yourself, then that's just weak.
 
If you need to rely on others, and what you think those others think of you to bolster yourself, then that's just weak.

I rely on the people in the grocery store if I am to obtain food.

I rely on the people in the hardware store if I am to obtain tools.

I rely on the people who work on the farms and in the factories who supply these stores.

I rely on the people in the mines who supply the ore needed to make the tools used by farms and factories ...

I rely on my neighbour not to get it into his head it would be easier if he came down and stole what I have.

Relying on others is what we do in a society of humans.

As for allowing what others think of me to affect me and my sense of well-being ... what my beloved thinks of me matters, as her happiness and her love are as important to me as my own, if not moreso. I am willing to sacrifice the satisfaction of my own needs so as to meet hers.

I trust her judgment, her insight. If hers disagrees with mine, I do not dismiss it as irrelevant, but rather look into her thoughts and feelings as if they were my own. Her viewpoint has merit and is worthy of consideration.

This is true of my good friends, those I've trusted and whose trustworthiness has proven to be dependable.

None of this makes me weak. This is what it is to be human, and the day I start losing these qualities is the day I retire from life.

There is no joy living an isolated existence.
 
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