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A "FAIR TAX" thread so U_D can "tear me to shreds..."

Frisco_Slug_Esq

Frisco_Slug_Esq

On Strike!
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For those who want to referee and don't have the Linder-Boortz book...





Fairtax.org


Okay U_D ask those "deadly" questions and zippy, you can chime in too!
 
Fair, Flat... They both make good points. I'm like Fair better because frankly I don't like the idea of taxing income.
 
BigGator5 said:
Fair, Flat... They both make good points. I'm like Fair better because frankly I don't like the idea of taxing income.
Click to expand...

Me too, plus, what we have IS a flat tax system...




;) ;)

Hey U_D...
__________________
"Don't get stuck on stupid!"
Lt. Gen. Russel Honoré
 
Frisco_Slug_Esq said:
Me too, plus, what we have IS a flat tax system...
Click to expand...
No, what we have is a progressive tax system. This is missleading however, because really, only the middle class pays taxes. The rich pay nothing and the poor get refunds.
 
BigGator5 said:
No, what we have is a progressive tax system. This is missleading however, because really, only the middle class pays taxes. The rich pay nothing and the poor get refunds.
Click to expand...

No, it was supposed to "fix" the progressive tax system by setting rates and closing loopholes and then Congress was rewarded with new contributions for new loopholes...

It was a "progressive" flat tax.

;) ;)

The only way to win converts to the FairTax is to demonstrate how it is rabidly and efficiently self-progressive in a blind manner which is tantamount to selling the Obamanation on the idea that a free market is more productive than a regulated market; they like handicapping the winners and losers, retarding them, one might even say...

*snicker*

Take U_D, for example, and his tag-team partner...
 
It's not that the rich pay nothing (unless you're Wesley Snipes), it's that there aren't enough rich people for their taxes to make much difference.
 
BigGator5 said:
No, what we have is a progressive tax system. This is missleading however, because really, only the middle class pays taxes. The rich pay nothing and the poor get refunds.
Click to expand...

You really should get out of your grandma's basement more often.

The "rich" pay most of the federal income taxes, the percentage depending on where you think "rich" starts.

The "rich" also bankrolled the "fair" tax, because they consume less of their income on a proportional basis so come out ahead if consumption is taxed, rather than income.

And if the rich come out ahead, and it's revenue-neutral, then somebody is paying more.
 
firespin said:
You really should get out of your grandma's basement more often.

The "rich" pay most of the federal income taxes, the percentage depending on where you think "rich" starts.

The "rich" also bankrolled the "fair" tax, because they consume less of their income on a proportional basis so come out ahead if consumption is taxed, rather than income.

And if the rich come out ahead, and it's revenue-neutral, then somebody is paying more.
Click to expand...
You say all that like it's a bad thing...
 
off2bed said:
You say all that like it's a bad thing...
Click to expand...

Not bad per se...my brain just hurts when somebody says "the problem with our current system is the middle class pays too much taxes"...and then endorses a system where the middle class will pay more taxes.

Baaaa.

They have to hope it's just a shearing, rather than gyros on the menu.
 
firespin said:
You really should get out of your grandma's basement more often.

The "rich" pay most of the federal income taxes, the percentage depending on where you think "rich" starts.

The "rich" also bankrolled the "fair" tax, because they consume less of their income on a proportional basis so come out ahead if consumption is taxed, rather than income.

And if the rich come out ahead, and it's revenue-neutral, then somebody is paying more.
Click to expand...

He's right in that the "rich" pass them on for they own the means of production...
 
firespin said:
Not bad per se...my brain just hurts when somebody says "the problem with our current system is the middle class pays too much taxes"...and then endorses a system where the middle class will pay more taxes.

Baaaa.

They have to hope it's just a shearing, rather than gyros on the menu.
Click to expand...

Are you saying the middle-class will pay "more" taxes under the FairTax?

If so, how do you come to that determination?
 
When almost half the taxpayers pay nothing, and even receive gifts from the rest of us (EITC), any system that gets them to pay at least something is a step in the right direction. Under the FairTax, if you don't want to pay taxes, don't buy unnecessary stuff. Your call - you have the power. Food and necessities get you a rebate.
 
Frisco_Slug_Esq said:
Are you saying the middle-class will pay "more" taxes under the FairTax?

If so, how do you come to that determination?
Click to expand...

a) it's revenue-neutral

b) the poor pay basically nothing, as today

c) the rich pay less than they do today

d) so whoever is left over pays more.

the fair tax is sold on the basis of "everybody pays the same or less, but we take in the same amount"

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to sniff out the snake oil.
 
off2bed said:
When almost half the taxpayers pay nothing, and even receive gifts from the rest of us (EITC), any system that gets them to pay at least something is a step in the right direction. Under the FairTax, if you don't want to pay taxes, don't buy unnecessary stuff. Your call - you have the power. Food and necessities get you a rebate.
Click to expand...

Actually, if you're middle-class (you know the poor will take advantage of this fact) if you want to cut your tax liability, not only do you cut consumption, BUT, on big ticket items, you buy used...

No tax added at all; once paid, all paid, take advantage of the rich guy.

;) ;)
 
off2bed said:
When almost half the taxpayers pay nothing, and even receive gifts from the rest of us (EITC), any system that gets them to pay at least something is a step in the right direction. Under the FairTax, if you don't want to pay taxes, don't buy unnecessary stuff. Your call - you have the power. Food and necessities get you a rebate.
Click to expand...

"Nothing" is a bit overstated, though I know you mean just federal income tax.

Lots of people pay more in FICA / medicaid than federal income taxes.

There are state sales taxes in most states.

Sometimes state income taxes, too, though usually proportional to the fed.
 
firespin said:
a) it's revenue-neutral

b) the poor pay basically nothing, as today

c) the rich pay less than they do today

d) so whoever is left over pays more.

the fair tax is sold on the basis of "everybody pays the same or less, but we take in the same amount"

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to sniff out the snake oil.
Click to expand...

Bad math with it's first poor assumption being a zero-sum game. First off, most of the "rich" don't pay annual "income" taxes, capital gains, maybe...

This way they do pay taxes even in those years when they don't have Bill Ayers write their books.

Then, let's look at the money that comes back on-shore (and the companies that will relocate headquarters and factories to be more competitive) when the rich no longer have to hide it or flee. Then you have more rich paying more taxes, maybe proportionately not as much, you ol' envious type keeping his eye on that sort o'thingy, would like but in volume, more...

;) ;)
 
firespin said:
You really should get out of your grandma's basement more often.

The "rich" pay most of the federal income taxes, the percentage depending on where you think "rich" starts.

The "rich" also bankrolled the "fair" tax, because they consume less of their income on a proportional basis so come out ahead if consumption is taxed, rather than income.

And if the rich come out ahead, and it's revenue-neutral, then somebody is paying more.
Click to expand...
Don't you dare tell me FICA isn't regressive. For example: The Social Security portion of it is a flat 12.4% (combined) up to the wage cap ($106,800), and every dollar above that cap is untaxed. Yes, in theory, our income tax is supposed to be progressive. However that's not the case.

Fair Tax would be very progressive, because only those who buy things will get tax. The poor isn't going to be buying stuff like jets or three homes.

We used to have a Fair Tax system until the rich did away with it.
 
The poor will get to keep ALL of their paychecks.



So will the middle-class. No more "regressive" taxes on the Federal level.


;) ;)
 
Last edited:
BigGator5 said:
Don't you dare tell me FICA isn't regressive. For example: The Social Security portion of it is a flat 12.4% (combined) up to the wage cap ($106,800), and every dollar above that cap is untaxed. Yes, in theory, our income tax is supposed to be progressive. However that's not the case.

Fair Tax would be very progressive, because only those who buy things will get tax. The poor isn't going to be buying stuff like jets or three homes.

We used to have a Fair Tax system until the rich did away with it.
Click to expand...

*gets out stick to poke BigGator5 *

We weren't talking about FICA. We could, but we weren't.

The top federal income tax rate is 30-something percent, and yes, the rich pay it. So even With FICA included, the overall federal income tax scheme is still a progressive one.

The fair tax is not at all progressive...everybody pays the same.
 
firespin said:
*gets out stick to poke BigGator5 *

We weren't talking about FICA. We could, but we weren't.

The top federal income tax rate is 30-something percent, and yes, the rich pay it. So even With FICA included, the overall federal income tax scheme is still a progressive one.

The fair tax is not at all progressive...everybody pays the same.
Click to expand...

As well they should. There, like in the justice system, should only be one kind of citizen.

A citizen.

The poor need to be vested in any tax increases too, makes them less likely to just say yes (I don't have to pay it! soak the man, man!)...
 
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