Post-feminism and BDSM

Growing up in the 70s and 80s, I consider myself a "post-feminist". That is, it isn't my generation that burned their bras or fought for equal pay or whatever. In fact, "feminism" is something of a dirty word to those of us born in the 60s. I usually prefer to think of myself as an "egalitarian".

And I realise that men of my generation think the same way. They have certain ideas about how women are and how they should be in relation to them, that are very different from our parents' generation. Of course, this is a good thing. Unless you want him to slam you against the wall and pull your hair.

I am sure I am not the only woman who has experienced a warring of emotions between the "modern egalitarian woman" persona she has always identified with, and the "submissive slut" persona she revels in being. I expected it. I deal with it.

What I didn't expect was that Sir also experiences the same warring of emotions. While he has no problem tying me up and fucking me dirty, he balks somewhat at my requests for him to be rougher, and I am not sure what to say because I find it incongruous that he should want to attach clothes pins to various parts of my body and drip hot wax on my skin, but not pull my hair a little bit.

Anyone else with similar experiences? And philosophically, how do you deal with this warring of emotions?

Easily.

Feminism gave me the permission to do what I want to do, and a big part of what I want to do involves being treated like shit in the bedroom.

But I'm sure other people here (wink wink) will be more than happy to talk about this topic in much more depth than I have the patience for right now

I've always felt very androgynous, though my appearance has only been that for a short period in my life. I never found myself able to relate well to "difference feminists" (you know, wymmyn are inherently more peaceful and givers of LIFE blah etc) at all. It's like convincing me that I'm an ostrich. I look in the mirror and I don't see that, I see someone who's glued on a few feathers because they're fun and it's easier than fighting the current. I don't think about my gender much at all - which forces me to think about it a LOT because it seems that I'm in a minority on that count.

However, I've always been aware of glaring *inconsistencies* with how women are treated, and me included since I have the feathers, whether I think I'm an ostrich or not.

If I didn't know that the guy I switch with thought the inconsistencies to be bullshit, and if I didn't know that he sometimes feels like an ostrich too even though he hasn't got one SINGLE outward feather, I'm pretty certain there's no way I'd respond to him with adequate comfort to want him to push me around a little.

But the women I had around me in my immediate family weren't "modern take charge" women - they had bizzare dynamics of opression and hierarchy within ranks that made me think, zomgz, I *cannot* let this happen to me.

Like Syd, I know that a lot of people put in a lot of blood sweat and tears for me to be where I am now. I already fly in the face of a lot of feminism because I fetishize power as someone who wants lots of it, sexually and relationship wise. I get off on a scripted archetypical role that I KNOW is authored by and for men (Dominatrix) but I still manage to locate in it and take pleasure from it. This means I, myself, am not consistent with feminism. That's OK. I prefer the notion that some things in my life are absolutely damaged beyond repair by the way the world is fucked up - they're fucked up in response. I don't have to defend them by trying to say "no it's really feminist of me to be a fetishist!"

Frankly I don't think sexuality is or is not feminist. HOW you express is, and more importantly, how you organize and vote and treat your children and all that external shit that matters more than what hole you stick things in. Policing women's sexuality is something VERY privileged women worry about when the question of sweatshops becomes too overwhelming.

A lot (weasel words...) of male subs get off on the idea of female superiority/male inferiority, misandry or even gynocracy. Do female subs* get off on misogyny, female inferiority/male superiority or androcracy?

*People usually put "any" in there. Obviously SOME female somewhere does. But how common is it etc?

Daddys_Touch said:

A lot (weasel words...) of male subs get off on the idea of female superiority/male inferiority, misandry or even gynocracy. Do female subs* get off on misogyny, female inferiority/male superiority or androcracy?

*People usually put "any" in there. Obviously SOME female somewhere does. But how common is it etc?

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I'd say it's kind of symmetrical. Look at the popularity of the Gor books among women.

lennythelion said:

Growing up in the 70s and 80s, I consider myself a "post-feminist". That is, it isn't my generation that burned their bras or fought for equal pay or whatever. In fact, "feminism" is something of a dirty word to those of us born in the 60s. I usually prefer to think of myself as an "egalitarian".

And I realise that men of my generation think the same way. They have certain ideas about how women are and how they should be in relation to them, that are very different from our parents' generation. Of course, this is a good thing. Unless you want him to slam you against the wall and pull your hair.

I am sure I am not the only woman who has experienced a warring of emotions between the "modern egalitarian woman" persona she has always identified with, and the "submissive slut" persona she revels in being. I expected it. I deal with it.

What I didn't expect was that Sir also experiences the same warring of emotions. While he has no problem tying me up and fucking me dirty, he balks somewhat at my requests for him to be rougher, and I am not sure what to say because I find it incongruous that he should want to attach clothes pins to various parts of my body and drip hot wax on my skin, but not pull my hair a little bit.

Anyone else with similar experiences? And philosophically, how do you deal with this warring of emotions?

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I was raised by a very feminist mother. Let's just say that my inner needs had to fight it out with my upbringing.

I knew Netz would pull through on this one Boy, I was tired last night.

Interesting topic. I think we get too caught up in definitions created by other people. A person's worth isn't determined by their gender, nor is their behavior entirely dependent on it. That's not to say there aren't traditional roles and expectations thrust upon us, only that we've reached a point (in the first world, anyway) where people are free to accept or reject those roles.

That freedom is the key, and feminism is one of the influences that brought us to it. My wife, for example, was pursuing a career with a major corporation when we first got together. Later, she chose to become a stay-at-home mom. I think that choice was as much an expression of feminism as if she had gone back to climbing the corporate ladder. She did what fed her soul.

As to sex, well, I never thought of that as an expression of philosophy so much as one of love or lust. If the people involved like whatever the act is, who gives a shit what Betty Friedan's opinion of it would be? She doesn't get a vote unless you give her one.

The broader point is that none of us need to be bound by any convention, new or old. If we are, that's because we like those conventions, or we never thought about breaking free, or we lack the courage to follow Thoreau's "different drummer."

Beyond that, it seems your husband may be confused by the idea that violence toward women is wrong. I'm not sure that idea is entirely a creation of feminism, but I think we can stipulate the point. However, consensual rough sex, even spanking, flogging, face slapping, or other forms of impact play isn't violence in the evil sense of the word. Violence stems from anger, or from the need to control others (yeah, I get the paradox, but BDSM is about fantasy control, not coercion). Freely given consent is the key difference.

Still, that may be something your husband just can't do. Consent is a two-way street. Some people can't bring themselves to swat a fly - maybe he can't bring himself to swat your ass. Marriages aren't perfect, but good ones are a connected series of workable compromises. You may just have to settle for clothespins on your nipples. And really, how bad is that?

lennythelion said:

What I didn't expect was that Sir also experiences the same warring of emotions. While he has no problem tying me up and fucking me dirty, he balks somewhat at my requests for him to be rougher, and I am not sure what to say because I find it incongruous that he should want to attach clothes pins to various parts of my body and drip hot wax on my skin, but not pull my hair a little bit.

Anyone else with similar experiences? And philosophically, how do you deal with this warring of emotions?

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Clothespins, wax, tying, etc are just kinky sex. Grabbing a woman by the hair and slapping her is HITTING A WOMAN.

The caps were used to emphasize the point how the brains of many a modern western man sees the topic. I can do all this kinky weird stuff, but slap a girl across the face? *twitch* Years and years of societal brainwashing kicks in and tells me "You DON'T hit a woman."

I see nothing whatsoever incongruous about that. It may seem odd from an external perspective, but if you understand the psychology and socialisation behind it, it's fairly simple.

Homburg said:

Clothespins, wax, tying, etc are just kinky sex. Grabbing a woman by the hair and slapping her is HITTING A WOMAN.
.

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To me that's part of what makes it hot. You can keep your wax and your needles, a good smack in the face and throwing her to the floor is what I enjoy most. And, I think, a lot of women.

For the record, I consider and call myself a feminist, and not some other name that means essentially the same thing.

My PYL doesn't really struggle with this, though he did struggle with the whole you're my wife, so I can't do X to you. X is just tooo much! But he's over it now.

Anyway, I did struggle with being a feminist and submissive, but not with respect to the s&m stuff, more with the D/s stuff. I was concerned about taking on a secondary decision-making role in a relationship and the impression that would create for our kids. It's sort of worked itself out, for the moment. We seem to have a happy medium of stuff that he decides and stuff that we decide together. That may make me less submissive in the great book of submission, but eh, whatcha gonna do. There have been a few times when we've been talking something out in front of kidlet, and I know he's about to say, uh, no, I override you, and we've developed a sort of wink, wink, let's talk about it later, laugh it off thing.

Also, I've been reminded how important actions are. I was doing all of the cooking and I think was sort of primary caretaker, but recently he took over for certain reasons, and I think that's not at all lost on kidlet. But I digress...this isn't a mom thread.

lennythelion said:

What I didn't expect was that Sir also experiences the same warring of emotions. While he has no problem tying me up and fucking me dirty, he balks somewhat at my requests for him to be rougher, and I am not sure what to say because I find it incongruous that he should want to attach clothes pins to various parts of my body and drip hot wax on my skin, but not pull my hair a little bit.

Anyone else with similar experiences? And philosophically, how do you deal with this warring of emotions?

Click to expand...

To me, this has nothing to do with feminism, and everything to do with the maxim that says: you don't take on those who are weaker. That's the hurdle I had to clear, to give myself permission to engage in rough sex. Gender is only relevant here because the females I've fucked have all been smaller and slighter.

It helps me to think of this in the same way I think about contact sports. It's the difference between roughing up a smaller kid on the playground (which is never okay), and slamming an opposing hockey player into the boards. Consent is granted when the opposing player steps onto the ice, and you maintain your honor by following the rules.

I don't mean to imply that I slam females into the wall at will. The point is that consent + adherence to select no-material-injury rules gives me the internal permission I need to let go.

rosco rathbone said:

I was raised by a very feminist mother. Let's just say that my inner needs had to fight it out with my upbringing.

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I wasn't and I did too. Does this have more to say about feminism, parenting styles, Dominant people as children or what?

Netzach said:

I wasn't and I did too. Does this have more to say about feminism, parenting styles, Dominant people as children or what?

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I think if I hadn't been raised to respect women, you and I would hate each other.

JMohegan said:

To me, this has nothing to do with feminism, and everything to do with the maxim that says: you don't take on those who are weaker. That's the hurdle I had to clear, to give myself permission to engage in rough sex. Gender is only relevant here because the females I've fucked have all been smaller and slighter.

It helps me to think of this in the same way I think about contact sports. It's the difference between roughing up a smaller kid on the playground (which is never okay), and slamming an opposing hockey player into the boards. Consent is granted when the opposing player steps onto the ice, and you maintain your honor by following the rules.

I don't mean to imply that I slam females into the wall at will. The point is that consent + adherence to select no-material-injury rules gives me the internal permission I need to let go.

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Bottoming to a jock with good sporting ethics, I often have to pipe up and remind him "I am not made of glass and cardboard." I agree that this isn't particularly a postfeminist debacle at all - there's a degree of chivalry and fair play that's being challenged. My OWN sense of fair play is challenged regularly - kicking a guy when he's down kind of includes "tied to a desk so that he can't lift his head 2 inches" - but I think that embracing my "wrong" has more mental than physical aspect.

A lot of people want to go off mentally into some very dark and nasty sludge. I'm often very ambiguous on whether it's better they meet someone like me, or never do.

rosco rathbone said:

I think if I hadn't been raised to respect women, you and I would hate each other.

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Haha. Probably, actually. My respect for most MDoms is proportional to how much I think they're just reactionaries versus how much I think they have worked out that their kink is their kink, and owned it as a sexuality, rather than just marching through the world like they're told to, kind of entitled, kind of oblivious, kind of in charge, kind of not.

When they've worked and suffered and had to "leave home" mentally as much as I have I'm down with it. Unfair, likely, but look who you're talking to.

Netzach said:

owned it as a sexuality, rather than just marching through the world like they're told to, kind of entitled, kind of oblivious, kind of in charge, kind of not.

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Ultimately, this is how I feel, although I can't go admitting that to people on the Male Supremacy list.

rosco rathbone said:

Ultimately, this is how I feel, although I can't go admitting that to people on the Male Supremacy list.

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I imagine that UNLIKE a lot of people on said list, as a result, you are not actually run by your girl.
*smirk*

Sidenote: I bet Male Supremacy is more fun than Female Supremacy. Oy vey, is that scene BORING.

Netzach said:

I imagine that UNLIKE a lot of people on said list, as a result, you are not actually run by your girl.
*smirk*

Sidenote: I bet Male Supremacy is more fun than Female Supremacy. Oy vey, is that scene BORING.

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Excellent point.Much of my success with females can be directly credited to the fluidity I learned as the son of an uber-feminist mom. I've often thought about this, to myself, but never really put it into words.

rosco rathbone said:

Excellent point.Much of my success with females can be directly credited to the fluidity I learned as the son of an uber-feminist mom. I've often thought about this, to myself, but never really put it into words.

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Would you elaborate on that? I don't entirely follow you on that last bit, but I'm interested.

As for my own two cents...lots of excellent points being made here. I DID struggle with my perceived feminist/BDSM conflict throughout my 20s, but have come to the conclusion that I have ever right to practice my sexuality as I please as long as I'm not hurting anyone, including myself (in any real way, I mean). My body wants what it wants, and it wants some very alpha-male, use me/abuse me, the-weaker-sex shit. But I don't live D/s outside the bedroom to much of a degree, so I think that probably helps with reconciling all the philosophical struggles. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think that probably makes a HUGE difference.

subish2009 said:

Would you elaborate on that? I don't entirely follow you on that last bit, but I'm interested.

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It isn't easy to put into words. I've just noticed, over and over again, that I seem to have a better understanding of female psychology than most men and I don't know what else to credit it to.

rosco rathbone said:

It isn't easy to put into words. I've just noticed, over and over again, that I seem to have a better understanding of female psychology than most men and I don't know what else to credit it to.

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In my experience, the most intuitive people seem to make the best dominants.

I have no problem with leaving marks but slapping a woman hard in the face or punching her in the gut, no, I just would never do that. Hair pulling was hard in the beginning but I got over that one when I found out most women just love it. There are some who hate it but most seem to like it.

WriterDom said:

I have no problem with leaving marks but slapping a woman hard in the face or punching her in the gut, no, I just would never do that. Hair pulling was hard in the beginning but I got over that one when I found out most women just love it. There are some who hate it but most seem to like it.

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Man, I like a good hard slap and punch now and again.

00Syd said:

Man, I like a good hard slap and punch now and again.

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Well if you ask for it, perhaps. Playful slaps I could do. Not sure I want to make someone's head ring for an hour.