what makes a poem good?

[nerk]

Originally Posted by bflagsst

More recently I'd have to say that a good poem would have to contain very intimate details, as little generalization as possible, but still read to certain people like it was about their intimacies. A good poet should be a very good astrologer, the type that gives private readings, not meant for the general masses who get their astrology readings from crappy magazines. It's a conflicting idea. Don't strike general chords using general themes, strike unique chords using your own unique theme and personal details.

I think this is as good a definition as you could possibly give. Though I might say something about imaginary gardens and real toads. Which I always thought meant pretty much the same thing. Very real, specific details used to express something intangible.

Originally Posted by Angeline

I carried a copy of a poem in my wallet for 18 years. It was one I had discovered in college in an anthology of women poets from Muslim cultures. I absolutely fell in love with this poem immediately upon reading it, and the poet was obscure enough that I doubted I'd find the poem easily anywhere else. So I made a copy and kept it. The copy fell apart in tatters years ago, but now the poet's work is available online, so I still read it from time to time and I still love it.

Oh and for the record, I find hanging out with one's dog to be one of life's better experiences.

so what was the poem you carried in your wallet?
I have often regretted not doing that. I first read "Invictus" in the mid 1980s and it struck a chord (hey, I was in middle school, cut me a break) I thought for sure I would remember at least the title, but I had to wait until the movie came out before I read it again.

[mynameisben]

Originally Posted by champagne1982

Oh woe is me!
I was waiting around
hoping to see
how to float like a butterfly
and sting like a bee!

There's no need to fear
The champagne poet 's here!
Though verse bedraggled
She will not slow
For it's rope a dope dope,
Then away she'll go!

[marriant]

A good poem should engage the heart of the reader it should be more than mere intellectual cleverness and we can feel an identification with.

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[hurry234]

Originally Posted by PandoraGlitters

Billy Collins in a master class once told a group of us that the first line of a poem should be something the reader cannot argue with but must accept. I think it is along the lines of what Bflag is saying in terms of clarity. I think that a poem can shift to greater complexity, but it should always be clear on at least a surface level.

That said, I love finding new layers in a poem on a second read or third read. Noticing technique that was, on the first read, subtle enough to be seamless, or resonances in diction choices--to notice the implications of images. The poem should make sense the first time but should become more interesting rather than less interesting in successive reads. Example: Sylvia Plath's Metaphors poem.

______________________________________
Electronic Cigarette
E Cigarette

[champagne1982]

Wow, hurry234 seems to be a bot, grabbing our moderators' posts and sliding them in as their own words. I've reported and blocked this alt.

[butters]

Originally Posted by champagne1982

Wow, hurry234 seems to be a bot, grabbing our moderators' posts and sliding them in as their own words. I've reported and blocked this alt.

done

[aaggatsha55]

A good poem must be well written with a accurate use of language.A good poem should engage the heart of the reader with the intellectual cleverness.

“That love is all there is;
all we know of love”

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[twelveoone]

so what you are saying it is a subject evaluation (in 9 pages)
i.e. the reader determines
is it good
or
is it bad
or maybe both at once
like those two faces looking at a chalice
my question is the chalice half full or half empty
or is it the home of Schrodinger's cat
that if I look in it
a gun goes off
and the cat is splat

[Black13]

Epicurus said pleasure is the absence of pain... that being said, I think good poetry lies in the absence of shittiness. If your poem is lacking in trite expressions, rhyme-fishing, conceptual inconsistency, meter-cramming, and self-indulgent complaining, it's probably going to be at least a decent poem. How well the poem does after those requirements are met depends on how specific of a feeling you're trying to get across, and how well that specific feeling gets across to your reader. If something in the poem gets a reaction out of me, it's good, but when it gets a reaction out of me with which I am not familiar, it's fucking awesome.

[PandoraGlitters]

Originally Posted by Black13

Epicurus said pleasure is the absence of pain... that being said, I think good poetry lies in the absence of shittiness . . . If something in the poem gets a reaction out of me, it's good, but when it gets a reaction out of me with which I am not familiar, it's fucking awesome.

That is an interesting response. Thank you, 13. Perhaps it is unfamiliar reactions that create animosity in people who do not enjoy poetry at all. Or maybe it's just the prevalence of shittiness.

[Black13]

Absolutely. People having animosity toward the unfamiliar is one of the biggest contributing factors to shitty literature in general, and in return the people who read it get turned off by it and quickly lose their taste for poetry in general. That and a lot people just think poetry's gay... which of course is a manifestation of animosity toward the unfamiliar. It's the wrong writers writing to the wrong readers... allthegoddamntime.

[littlebirdstory]

I think what makes up a good poem is what makes up a good movie/book/story. If it can elicit a response in you, positive or negative, it is a good poem. This may define a poem's 'goodness author' the reader themselves. How could one say that something is good, in this sense, for someone else. What are you looking for?

[butters]

Originally Posted by twelveoone

so what you are saying it is a subject evaluation (in 9 pages)
i.e. the reader determines
is it good
or
is it bad
or maybe both at once
like those two faces looking at a chalice
my question is the chalice half full or half empty
or is it the home of Schrodinger's cat
that if I look in it
a gun goes off
and the cat is splat

we each determine, individually, based upon the response the write elicits from us. academically, a poem can be deemed 'good' by scholars based upon the tools used to create it, its clarity, sparkle, finesse... but no group of scholars will convince an individual something's bad if they (the indi) loves it or good if it bores them shitless. we can be educated to appreciate the skills but if we don't feel the impact of a write it's just not happening.

trying to herd poets is harder than herding a bunch of hypothetical moggies.

psst: don't open the box. it ruins the surprise....

[bronzeage]

Originally Posted by chipbutty

we each determine, individually, based upon the response the write elicits from us. academically, a poem can be deemed 'good' by scholars based upon the tools used to create it, its clarity, sparkle, finesse... but no group of scholars will convince an individual something's bad if they (the indi) loves it or good if it bores them shitless. we can be educated to appreciate the skills but if we don't feel the impact of a write it's just not happening.

trying to herd poets is harder than herding a bunch of hypothetical moggies.

psst: don't open the box. it ruins the surprise....

It's easy to herd moggies, if one knows the trick. One side is furry and the other is sticky. Get them lined up in the right order and it's easy to keep them in line.
Poets are sticky on both sides, so they tend to clump together and never move far from the spot.

[butters]

Originally Posted by bronzeage

It's easy to herd moggies, if one knows the trick. One side is furry and the other is sticky. Get them lined up in the right order and it's easy to keep them in line.
Poets are sticky on both sides, so they tend to clump together and never move far from the spot.

you so cool

< sticky bitch

[Desejo]

Originally Posted by Black13

Epicurus said pleasure is the absence of pain... that being said, I think good poetry lies in the absence of shittiness. If your poem is lacking in trite expressions, rhyme-fishing, conceptual inconsistency, meter-cramming, and self-indulgent complaining, it's probably going to be at least a decent poem. How well the poem does after those requirements are met depends on how specific of a feeling you're trying to get across, and how well that specific feeling gets across to your reader. If something in the poem gets a reaction out of me, it's good, but when it gets a reaction out of me with which I am not familiar, it's fucking awesome.

I completely agree with this. I would add that for me, I have to have some clue about the meaning or subject matter of the poem. If it is just a bunch of shocking words thrown together with links so far fetched that they are unattainable...then it is not going to do anything other than frustrate me.

One of the reasons people dislike poetry is that it requires thinking. That hurdle can be overcome if the language is interesting and pertinent to the reader. It's fine for a poem to refer to ancient mythologies, philosophy, quantum theory, historical characters etc...but the poet must realize that he/she is alienating most of the human race by using such references and is very unlikely to be understood. No one wants to feel stupid (even if one is indeed stupid ).

I think this is a problem even when poets write for audiences including other poets or their peers. You have to find a way to make it relevant. I struggle with this, as my experiences are somewhat unusual. Interested to hear other opinions on this.

[twelveoone]

Originally Posted by Black13

Epicurus said pleasure is the absence of pain... that being said, I think good poetry lies in the absence of shittiness. If your poem is lacking in trite expressions, rhyme-fishing, conceptual inconsistency, meter-cramming, and self-indulgent complaining, it's probably going to be at least a decent poem. How well the poem does after those requirements are met depends on how specific of a feeling you're trying to get across, and how well that specific feeling gets across to your reader. If something in the poem gets a reaction out of me, it's good, but when it gets a reaction out of me with which I am not familiar, it's fucking awesome.

that is fucking awesome.
no 3,000 years of western civ?
now is that a total "absence of shittiness"? or can we allow just a little? because I'm fucking awesome, I made an anon sick (my intent), and that did have a degree of shittiness involved. we may be talking about two different types of shittiness.

[twelveoone]

Originally Posted by chipbutty

we each determine, individually, based upon the response the write elicits from us. academically, a poem can be deemed 'good' by scholars based upon the tools used to create it, its clarity, sparkle, finesse... but no group of scholars will convince an individual something's bad if they (the indi) loves it or good if it bores them shitless. we can be educated to appreciate the skills but if we don't feel the impact of a write it's just not happening.

trying to herd poets is harder than herding a bunch of hypothetical moggies.

psst: don't open the box. it ruins the surprise....

One of the best books on this, is in a critical series by Harold Bloom. Edgar Allan Poe.
Divided almost exactly in half as to whether he was a good poet or a bad poet.

[twelveoone]

Originally Posted by Desejo

One of the reasons people dislike poetry is that it requires thinking.

screw 'em, maybe they should go out and vote instead?

Originally Posted by Desejo

I think this is a problem even when poets write for audiences including other poets or their peers. You have to find a way to make it relevant. I struggle with this, as my experiences are somewhat unusual. Interested to hear other opinions on this.

I think it is more to do with finding a way to make it interesting. I like the way you think. I like the way you organize text, in a way it's similar to bogusagain, I don't know if that is relevant.

[butters]

Originally Posted by twelveoone

One of the best books on this, is in a critical series by Harold Bloom. Edgar Allan Poe.
Divided almost exactly in half as to whether he was a good poet or a bad poet.

sigh

this is why i like to decide for myself - whether it's a poem, a book, a film... ultimately it's all about me

[twelveoone]

Originally Posted by chipbutty

sigh

this is why i like to decide for myself - whether it's a poem, a book, a film... ultimately it's all about me

none better,
i agree with black 13, the open mind opens the play

[Angeline]

Originally Posted by twelveoone

One of the best books on this, is in a critical series by Harold Bloom. Edgar Allan Poe.
Divided almost exactly in half as to whether he was a good poet or a bad poet.

I am not particularly a Poe fan, but to me he is a very good poet, wonderfully lyrical. He's a little too emotional for my tastes though. I feel like he's in the background wringing his hands whenever I read him.

Adolescents love him though. When I taught seventh-grade English he was always very popular, especially with the girls.

[XdOu™]

what makes a good poem?

answer: put extra feelings to it

[twelveoone]

Originally Posted by XdOu™

what makes a good poem?

answer: put extra feelings to it

once more, with feeling!

perhaps, you would care to show us how
with one of yours


btw, what's the TM for?

[twelveoone]

Originally Posted by Angeline

I am not particularly a Poe fan, but to me he is a very good poet, wonderfully lyrical. He's a little too emotional for my tastes though. I feel like he's in the background wringing his hands whenever I read him.

Adolescents love him though. When I taught seventh-grade English he was always very popular, especially with the girls.

like that thing from Lord of the Rings

yessss, the
raven
nevermoresss iss hiss ass

I have that same feeling whenever I write
only it's Harold Bloom muttering
3000 years of the western cannon,
and you're spiking it!