what makes a poem good?

[butters]

Originally Posted by bflagsst

I can't access any poems this morning. What if every poem was deleted, and Literotica ceased being a place for poems?

why can't you access? have you tried going in through the New Poems ink in the poetry review/recommendation thread? that's working fine, i just checked.

[bflagsst]

Originally Posted by chipbutty

why can't you access? have you tried going in through the New Poems ink in the poetry review/recommendation thread? that's working fine, i just checked.

Yeah go to the new poems thread or wherever and click on a poem. A blank page comes up on my computer for every poem I try and click, even mine. It's almost like every poem has been deleted.

I think it's a site issue, because I can read my one story, but none of my poems.

[butters]

Originally Posted by bflagsst

Yeah go to the new poems thread or wherever and click on a poem. A blank page comes up on my computer for every poem I try and click, even mine. It's almost like every poem has been deleted.

I think it's a site issue, because I can read my one story, but none of my poems.

it's working fine for me. i'm in the uk, though, if that makes any difference.
how odd!

[bflagsst]

Originally Posted by chipbutty

it's working fine for me. i'm in the uk, though, if that makes any difference.
how odd!

when you click on this: http://www.literotica.com/stories/sh....php?id=463529

you get a poem and not a blank page?

[butters]

Originally Posted by bflagsst

when you click on this: http://www.literotica.com/stories/sh....php?id=463529

you get a poem and not a blank page?

nope -got a blank page there.

try going to the Poetry recommendation thread and clicking the new poems link we add to each additional days review. see if you can get in that way. seems like their other link's broke. best report it

[butters]

other people are experiencing problems too:


http://forum.literotica.com/showpost...49&postcount=1

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost...26&postcount=5

[EroticOrogeny]

Seems to be working now - both old & new poems come up for myself and other poets.

[butters]

Originally Posted by EroticOrogeny

Seems to be working now - both old & new poems come up for myself and other poets.

there ya go. the staus quo has been restored, and now we can all go find other little things to fuss about
llike my tickingkeyod goddmnit

[PaintsWithWords]

First, "good poem" should be defined.

For me, a good poem must have two traits. One, it must be accessible, i.e., at least part of it must be understood by readers. Two, a poem must relate to my thoughts or experiences.

Compare a poem to a modern art painting consisting of different colored splashes. Such abstract paintings are so open to interpretation they lose my interest. The same for such poems.

There are many poems regarded as good or great by others but if I can't understand them or relate to them, I'm not interested in deciphering them.

[Epmd607]

Saint-Saens Danse Macabre http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyknBTm_YyM
and Samson and Delilah http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3DSG_7Kp0w are pretty poetic

They're movie soundtracks before movies were around. But what does this have to do with this thread? I don't know, I like listening to them when I'm writing poems.

[vrosej10]

Someone said (and I don't remember who) I know its a poem when it blows the back of my head off. That says it for me on a personal sense. I want an emotional response, preferably intense. But that's just me.

I've been reading a lot of stuff on poetry lately and I came across a piece by Kenneth Koch that suggested that poetry is a separate language where sound is preferenced over meaning like in music. I gotta say that works for me. I love cryptic, imagistic stuff. Hmmnmm rules!

[XXplorher]

Originally Posted by chipbutty

Merry Christmas, XXplorher

There's nothing in your post I disagree with, and have highlighted what, to me, sings out.

However, the whole point of this question was to try and see what made a poem 'good' to the individual. As far as I can tell, it's mostly about whether or not it makes an impact on us, as individuals. That doesn't necessarily transfer to group recognition, nor - for the purpose of this thread - does it even need to. Of course we can then go on to extrapolate, consider the question in terms of the masses/publication/posterity, but that's all just trimmings imo. A poem that smacks me upside the head in some way or another, or places a finger straight on my heart or inside my thoughts, to me - an an individual - that makes a good poem. My personal take. It doesn't matter to me if others disagree and find otherwise since I've already made that interface with the author via their words.

>However, the whole point of this question was to try and see what made a poem 'good' to the individual.

Okay, I think I hear you, but again – to what individual? Why are you writing to one individual? If you are? Hand it to them when you’re done.

I don’t think any true poet writes for any reason but to get beyond themselves. I think I’m a pretty shitty poet. Cuz I’m way too present with myself. I’m never going to be able to write some obscure brilliance that resonates with someone else. I’m not a poet. I’m a writer. I want understanding – I don’t want to be obscure.


>A poem that smacks me upside the head in some way or another, or places a finger straight on my heart or inside my thoughts, to me

That’s what you should bust your ass to write then, mate. That’s what you want. Find the connection... and fucking make it happen. NO ONE is going to tell you ‘that sounds exactly like your heart’. You’ll know that. No one else will. That’s why we do this. We’ll think we know and then you send it out there... for all the people who needed to hear it like you did.”

It sounds like you very much need to make that happen. Do it.

Find your thing and SAY it, dude.

[hernandez9039]

A mantric quality of language. Prose seeks to explain, poetry merely states. Good poetry is not an argument but convinces the reader through its own power.
__________________________________
Boob Job
Hair Straightener

[butters]

[quote=XXplorher;33763870]>However, the whole point of this question was to try and see what made a poem 'good' to the individual.

Okay, I think I hear you, but again – to what individual? Why are you writing to one individual? If you are? Hand it to them when you’re done.

Where i am coming from, is what - to us reading the poem - constitutes a good poem; not from the pov of the poet writing. Having said that, as a poet i write what i need to write (in most instances), and when i'm done i hope perhaps to touch the individual. there is no limit to 'the individual'. it is not only one person, but any number of persons touched at an individual level. and if i touch just one, that also makes me happy. perhaps this is what you intend to convey with your response here:

I don’t think any true poet writes for any reason but to get beyond themselves.

I think I’m a pretty shitty poet. Cuz I’m way too present with myself. I’m never going to be able to write some obscure brilliance that resonates with someone else. I’m not a poet. I’m a writer. I want understanding – I don’t want to be obscure.

there's no reason why poetry needs to be obscure. that speaks to me more about your perception of poetry than its reality.


>A poem that smacks me upside the head in some way or another, or places a finger straight on my heart or inside my thoughts, to me

That’s what you should bust your ass to write then, mate. That’s what you want. Find the connection... and fucking make it happen. NO ONE is going to tell you ‘that sounds exactly like your heart’. You’ll know that. No one else will. That’s why we do this. We’ll think we know and then you send it out there... for all the people who needed to hear it like you did.”

It sounds like you very much need to make that happen. Do it.

Find your thing and SAY it, dude.

um, i already do. thanks and once again, this is me asking about others' perceptions of poetry and not a thread about me beyond my own thoughts added to this thread.

Originally Posted by hernandez9039

A mantric quality of language. Prose seeks to explain, poetry merely states. Good poetry is not an argument but convinces the reader through its own power.

that sounds pretty convincing. *nods*

[XXplorher]

Chip:

Where i am coming from, is what - to us reading the poem - constitutes a good poem;

You keep trying to define that as an individually achievable goal. It isn’t! If you have personal experience with a reader – you’ve got a chance. Write it for them. (And then, why not post it for all to see.) Anything else is either a desperate attempt to put personal thought into a touching enough poem to resonate with a stranger (which is all I can hope for when it comes to poetry), or a resolute thought you hope to touch the masses with (correction: a great number of people).

None of those objectives are any better than the other. I’m just saying, you have to know your audience before you sit down and do it. And if you don’t consider that? Then you’re either going to get massively lucky or you already write for Hallmark.

If you want to 'constitute a good poem'? Then write down everything anyone ever says to you regarding that and be all inclusive. Or perhaps as vanilla as possible instead so no one feels left out. Seriously. You've got to decide who you are 1st.

Chip:

>there's no reason why poetry needs to be obscure. that speaks to me more about your perception of poetry than its reality.

Correct. I think Writing is a communication vehicle. I think Poetry is an art.

It doesn’t matter if I can’t understand a poem. It matters more if it just sounded affecting as I read the words. (Of course, that would depend on my individual perspective of appreciative ‘art’).

I used to look at Led Zeppelin lyrics forever and try desperately to know what they meant. I couldn’t. And I wondered if that made them more compelling. Same thing later happened with other favorite artists. I know they’re writing about symbolic things... it’s up to me to know what that means. What made them effective was not the generic meaning but the ‘poetic license’, rhythm, and how that worked with the music behind it. If I name another artist is that going to affect your view on my ability to understand poetry? Yes it will. No question. If I say, Dio, does that mean I’m all about swords and flowing robes? (Cuz I’m not, I’m about rhythm that’s symbiotic with the imagery.)

Bottom line, bro – what are we talking about? I think I forget. I seriously doubt I’m arguing with you at this point (it’s a welcome discussion though, so thanks).


Chip:

>once again, this is me asking about others' perceptions of poetry and not a thread about me beyond my own thoughts added to this thread.

Yeah, like I said above, I forgot.

Others’ perceptions? I would recommend you pay little attention. But that’s easy for me to say. I’m a stubborn Leo bastard. It depends on what you want. What would make you more effective? What do you value? Why do you need to do it? I’m still not sure why Others’ perceptions should ever matter when it comes to poetry.

Others’ perceptions would absolutely RUIN all the great poets we have on record. There’s no question about that in my mind.

Dude, poetry is an expression of the self. It doesn’t matter what other people think. Absorb everything you can appreciate from an artists point of view and express yourself as best you can (in an effort to merge your artistic appreciation with your own artistic soul). If you happen to be gifted... they’ll want more.


It’s probably good that you’re asking. But you’ll not be any good if you become whatever you’re told.

[butters]

*bangs head against wall*


there must be some language barrier here i'm not breaking through. never mind

[champagne1982]

Originally Posted by chipbutty

*bangs head against wall*


there must be some language barrier here i'm not breaking through. never mind

Sometimes, people are happy to argue every point in any discussion... I think you've tripped over one of those sola...

[Epmd607]

XXplorher appears every once in a while, whether his intention is to start arguments I don't know, but it usually ends up that way.

[butters]

Originally Posted by champagne1982

Sometimes, people are happy to argue every point in any discussion... I think you've tripped over one of those sola...

Originally Posted by Epmd607

XXplorher appears every once in a while, whether his intention is to start arguments I don't know, but it usually ends up that way.

so it's not me being obscure? good. they sound passionate but single-minded to the point of being blinkered to others' meanings. ah well. it's all debate, isn't it? that's what makes a forum spin

[bflagsst]

I remember an xxplorher quote that was pretty funny... He's a nasty boy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh_gaaUiNs8

[XXplorher]

Really? I didn't say anything meaningful?

Darn. I thought that I had... that's a little bit upsetting. (I just now read again what I said and I feel pretty good about it. It was worth saying, in my opinion.)


I guess I should probably ask what specifically I should say, in an effort to find greater acceptance...

Naw, I don't think I'll be that.

(As confusing as I may be to many. This is who I am. You can be bothered by that, or enchanted - it doesn't matter. This is who I am. I'm expressing myself properly. It's accurate to who I am... If dude was asking how to prepare and market himself in the most commercial manner possible? Then I did not at all belong in the discussion. I thought we were talking about art.)

[champagne1982]

Originally Posted by XXplorher

Really? I didn't say anything meaningful?

Darn. I thought that I had... that's a little bit upsetting. (I just now read again what I said and I feel pretty good about it. It was worth saying, in my opinion.)


I guess I should probably ask what specifically I should say, in an effort to find greater acceptance...

Naw, I don't think I'll be that.

(As confusing as I may be to many. This is who I am. You can be bothered by that, or enchanted - it doesn't matter. This is who I am. I'm expressing myself properly. It's accurate to who I am... If dude was asking how to prepare and market himself in the most commercial manner possible? Then I did not at all belong in the discussion. I thought we were talking about art.)

Dude... do you ever refer to women as women rather than as males? Taking the time to figure out who you're talking to is the first step in communicating. It probably would make it easier to read through your post as well. Since you refer to a woman as "dude" and all those other male centred nouns and pronouns, you tend to alienate all who are in fact not men.

Just sayin'... go off and enchant yourself now.

[Angeline]

Originally Posted by XXplorher

Chip:

Where i am coming from, is what - to us reading the poem - constitutes a good poem;

You keep trying to define that as an individually achievable goal. It isn’t! If you have personal experience with a reader – you’ve got a chance. Write it for them. (And then, why not post it for all to see.) Anything else is either a desperate attempt to put personal thought into a touching enough poem to resonate with a stranger (which is all I can hope for when it comes to poetry), or a resolute thought you hope to touch the masses with (correction: a great number of people).

None of those objectives are any better than the other. I’m just saying, you have to know your audience before you sit down and do it. And if you don’t consider that? Then you’re either going to get massively lucky or you already write for Hallmark.

If you want to 'constitute a good poem'? Then write down everything anyone ever says to you regarding that and be all inclusive. Or perhaps as vanilla as possible instead so no one feels left out. Seriously. You've got to decide who you are 1st.

Chip:

>there's no reason why poetry needs to be obscure. that speaks to me more about your perception of poetry than its reality.

Correct. I think Writing is a communication vehicle. I think Poetry is an art.

It doesn’t matter if I can’t understand a poem. It matters more if it just sounded affecting as I read the words. (Of course, that would depend on my individual perspective of appreciative ‘art’).

I used to look at Led Zeppelin lyrics forever and try desperately to know what they meant. I couldn’t. And I wondered if that made them more compelling. Same thing later happened with other favorite artists. I know they’re writing about symbolic things... it’s up to me to know what that means. What made them effective was not the generic meaning but the ‘poetic license’, rhythm, and how that worked with the music behind it. If I name another artist is that going to affect your view on my ability to understand poetry? Yes it will. No question. If I say, Dio, does that mean I’m all about swords and flowing robes? (Cuz I’m not, I’m about rhythm that’s symbiotic with the imagery.)

Bottom line, bro – what are we talking about? I think I forget. I seriously doubt I’m arguing with you at this point (it’s a welcome discussion though, so thanks).


Chip:

>once again, this is me asking about others' perceptions of poetry and not a thread about me beyond my own thoughts added to this thread.

Yeah, like I said above, I forgot.

Others’ perceptions? I would recommend you pay little attention. But that’s easy for me to say. I’m a stubborn Leo bastard. It depends on what you want. What would make you more effective? What do you value? Why do you need to do it? I’m still not sure why Others’ perceptions should ever matter when it comes to poetry.

Others’ perceptions would absolutely RUIN all the great poets we have on record. There’s no question about that in my mind.

Dude, poetry is an expression of the self. It doesn’t matter what other people think. Absorb everything you can appreciate from an artists point of view and express yourself as best you can (in an effort to merge your artistic appreciation with your own artistic soul). If you happen to be gifted... they’ll want more.


It’s probably good that you’re asking. But you’ll not be any good if you become whatever you’re told.

I generally agree with what you say, even though I am neither "dude" nor "bro." I agree that poetry is the expression of self. However it matters very much what others think if you want your poetry to communicate to others beyond yourself, and especially if you want to publish your poetry. I don't think people need be overly upset about others' opinions, but we do need to accept that we can learn from every opinion, even the one that simply says "you suck." If you approach writing with that attitude, you can change and grow. If not, you run the risk of being a legend in your own mind.

[DeepGreenEyes]

Originally Posted by XXplorher

Chip:

>there's no reason why poetry needs to be obscure. that speaks to me more about your perception of poetry than its reality.

Correct. I think Writing is a communication vehicle. I think Poetry is an art.

It doesn’t matter if I can’t understand a poem. It matters more if it just sounded affecting as I read the words. (Of course, that would depend on my individual perspective of appreciative ‘art’).

I used to look at Led Zeppelin lyrics forever and try desperately to know what they meant. I couldn’t. And I wondered if that made them more compelling. Same thing later happened with other favorite artists. I know they’re writing about symbolic things... it’s up to me to know what that means. What made them effective was not the generic meaning but the ‘poetic license’, rhythm, and how that worked with the music behind it. If I name another artist is that going to affect your view on my ability to understand poetry? Yes it will. No question. If I say, Dio, does that mean I’m all about swords and flowing robes? (Cuz I’m not, I’m about rhythm that’s symbiotic with the imagery.)

I've always liked this quote by T.S. Eliot:

“Genuine poetry can communicate before it is understood.”

I like running across poetry that I get without my brain immediately dissecting, cataloging, elaborating (although that's fun, too). Sometimes I get it because my brain isn't meddling so much. Or I understand later what was so significant about the piece.

I have similar experiences looking at abstract art, hiking through a forest, fucking, listening to music.

Of course, occasionally a brain is a nice thing to have. I use it to understand poetry, and a lot of other things, and I'm not giving it back.

[butters]

Originally Posted by XXplorher

Really? I didn't say anything meaningful?

Darn. I thought that I had... that's a little bit upsetting. (I just now read again what I said and I feel pretty good about it. It was worth saying, in my opinion.)


I guess I should probably ask what specifically I should say, in an effort to find greater acceptance...

Naw, I don't think I'll be that.

(As confusing as I may be to many. This is who I am. You can be bothered by that, or enchanted - it doesn't matter. This is who I am. I'm expressing myself properly. It's accurate to who I am... If dude was asking how to prepare and market himself in the most commercial manner possible? Then I did not at all belong in the discussion. I thought we were talking about art.)

i didn't say that what you said lacked meaning or coherence. not at all. it just bore little or no relationship to what i was asking people. from another viewpoint, another answer to a different question, it made a lot of sense. most the time, anyway.