what makes a poem good?

[champagne1982]

Originally Posted by phoenixangel

i believe good poetry comes from passion. it doesnt matter what you write but the feelings you put into it.

Originally Posted by chipbutty

... passion, expressed badly, is as useless as toilet paper trying to launch a rocket. words without passion are dry, passion without the words to engage the reader is a wasted emotion.

Originally Posted by champagne1982

With all due respect, unless you use good words to describe that passion, your passion is better written on the crotch of your panties.

Originally Posted by chipbutty

...absolutely.

I like when we're on the same page, it's like we're sharing the same bed. Move over a bit, though and gimme back some of the blankie.

[butters]

Originally Posted by champagne1982

I like when we're on the same page, it's like we're sharing the same bed. Move over a bit, though and gimme back some of the blankie.

it's a big goose down duvet. plenty of room

[frdrcnjohn]

For me a good poem gets my attention at the begining line and holds it till the end. Sometimes they make little sense until you think it thru and others make no sense but still you may hold it in your heart

[butters]

Originally Posted by frdrcnjohn

For me a good poem gets my attention at the begining line and holds it till the end. Sometimes they make little sense until you think it thru and others make no sense but still you may hold it in your heart

sometimes the sense is there but eludes the reader ... some poems are worth working for. there's a sense of joy to be reached when you finally get to unravel the poet's meanings - if the poem's a great poem.

[Graf_Severin]

Originally Posted by chipbutty

tell me. for you, as an individual, how do you KNOW if a poem is good or not?

I keep in mind something the French poet Paul Valery said (I paraphrase here): Poetry is the clear articulation of ambiguous emotions.

Good literature presents moral and emotional ambiguity, and presents it sharply. And the reader finds pleasure in discovering how much of our unspoken lives is spoken well in a good book, short story, or poem.

So, to address your question, chipbutty: I know a poem is poor if it uses trite language that does not viscerally bring me in touch with the situation and that is imprecise with wording. Lyrically speaking, when a poet sacrifices the language for the sake of meter, the result is usually awful; when meter is thrown out and the music of words is forgotten, the result is usually prose under the facade of poetry. There ought to be a balance of music and meaning.

I know a good poem when I can saver the music and the layered meanings.

Like music, tastes vary so much that publishers can be more finicky than the average joe.

Thanks for the question!
--Severin

[bflagsst]

Originally Posted by Graf_Severin

I keep in mind something the French poet Paul Valery said (I paraphrase here): Poetry is the clear articulation of ambiguous emotions.

Good literature presents moral and emotional ambiguity, and presents it sharply. And the reader finds pleasure in discovering how much of our unspoken lives is spoken well in a good book, short story, or poem.

So, to address your question, chipbutty: I know a poem is poor if it uses trite language that does not viscerally bring me in touch with the situation and that is imprecise with wording. Lyrically speaking, when a poet sacrifices the language for the sake of meter, the result is usually awful; when meter is thrown out and the music of words is forgotten, the result is usually prose under the facade of poetry. There ought to be a balance of music and meaning.

I know a good poem when I can saver the music and the layered meanings.

Like music, tastes vary so much that publishers can be more finicky than the average joe.

Thanks for the question!
--Severin

I agree with this mostly, but I'd say only a portion of good literature presents moral and emotional ambiguity, tries to say what's not easily said. For the most part, the good poems I've read are just saying very old things in new ways, quite clearly. "I love thee with my childhood's faith" and all that.

[no1son]

there are no good poems.
only words
cast into the void
sisyphean
falling on deaf ears
lyrics?
for even if you could speak my language
my digression would cry insane.

[butters]

Originally Posted by Graf_Severin

I keep in mind something the French poet Paul Valery said (I paraphrase here): Poetry is the clear articulation of ambiguous emotions.

Good literature presents moral and emotional ambiguity, and presents it sharply. And the reader finds pleasure in discovering how much of our unspoken lives is spoken well in a good book, short story, or poem.

So, to address your question, chipbutty: I know a poem is poor if it uses trite language that does not viscerally bring me in touch with the situation and that is imprecise with wording. Lyrically speaking, when a poet sacrifices the language for the sake of meter, the result is usually awful; when meter is thrown out and the music of words is forgotten, the result is usually prose under the facade of poetry. There ought to be a balance of music and meaning.

I know a good poem when I can savour the music and the layered meanings.

Like music, tastes vary so much that publishers can be more finicky than the average joe.

Thanks for the question!
--Severin

thankyou for this reply, Severin. I find myself agreeing with it, though I have read fine poems where there's less 'music' and more reliance upon imagery, for example, and some that are a joy to hear/speak but lack any greater depth of connection than that still very physical joy. Personally, I do tend to enjoy the music of words but still find myself varying in taste, here to there, over pieces full of it to others where the economy of language, its brevity and even atonal qualities, don't diminish the impact of what's being conveyed. Sometimes even adds to it. SOMETIMES, as i read what I consider the best poetry, the words, in effect,disappear as it becomes a visual, emotional experience above and beyond flat reading of print on a page or words from a screen.

you're so right about publishers. to sort out the best of submissions is one thing; to choose which to publish can depend on entirely different criteria.

Originally Posted by no1son

there are no good poems.
only words
cast into the void
sisyphean
falling on deaf ears
lyrics?
for even if you could speak my language
my digression would cry insane.

ya think?

[Graf_Severin]

bflagsst and chipbutty:

Yah, I had a Robert Pinsky on my shoulder when I wrote my reply to the question. I appreciate his musicality almost more than his poetry. So I admit I had a certain limited vision of a "good poem," bringing to mind a slew of free verse out there that I find to lack poetic value. In short, I was feeling snobby.

bflagsst: Yup, sometimes good poetry's just saying the old stuff in a new way. Anything trite is bad, and a waste of time.

chipbutty: Yup, imagery can take the place of the music. And even the layout of a poem on a page has a "third meaning" (the first meaning being the musicality/audio; the second meaning beying imagery/visual).

--Severin

[bflagsst]

Originally Posted by Graf_Severin

bflagsst and chipbutty:

Yah, I had a Robert Pinsky on my shoulder when I wrote my reply to the question. I appreciate his musicality almost more than his poetry. So I admit I had a certain limited vision of a "good poem," bringing to mind a slew of free verse out there that I find to lack poetic value. In short, I was feeling snobby.

bflagsst: Yup, sometimes good poetry's just saying the old stuff in a new way. Anything trite is bad, and a waste of time.

chipbutty: Yup, imagery can take the place of the music. And even the layout of a poem on a page has a "third meaning" (the first meaning being the musicality/audio; the second meaning beying imagery/visual).

--Severin

I have a strong dislike for the current fashion in published poetry. Prose poetry is basically anti-poetry, anti-lyric, missing beat. I'd take musicality over the imagery of a half-ass story most are trying to tell with their contemporary idea of what's good/publishable poetry.

For many, good = what's been published. So whether we admit it or not, what's good lies in the hands of the few that edit and publish the magazines and the handful of books. Therefore the new and old poets who wish to be read begin writing and emulating the prose poetry in print, the ones telling their indecipherable personal anecdotes with a tad too much surrealistic flavor.

I don't dislike all prose poetry, just the fact that almost everything I read in print seems to be missing a beat, any sort of music. I don't want a return to the Romantic Era, the Forms, perfect rhymed couplets and that sort of thing. But it's not horrible watching your metrical feet, using different bits of lyrical poetry and finding the beat once in awhile.

[butters]

Originally Posted by Graf_Severin

bflagsst and chipbutty:

Yah, I had a Robert Pinsky on my shoulder when I wrote my reply to the question. I appreciate his musicality almost more than his poetry. So I admit I had a certain limited vision of a "good poem," bringing to mind a slew of free verse out there that I find to lack poetic value. In short, I was feeling snobby.

bflagsst: Yup, sometimes good poetry's just saying the old stuff in a new way. Anything trite is bad, and a waste of time.

chipbutty: Yup, imagery can take the place of the music. And even the layout of a poem on a page has a "third meaning" (the first meaning being the musicality/audio; the second meaning beying imagery/visual).

--Severin

snobbery? lol

one thing i enjoy finding is a poem that works so well 'straight' but, when looked at metaphorically, is a whole other piece. but best of all is when all these things come together effortlessly (or appear to ); that's when great poetry can happen. imo, naturally

[butters]

Originally Posted by bflagsst

I have a strong dislike for the current fashion in published poetry. Prose poetry is basically anti-poetry, anti-lyric, missing beat. I'd take musicality over the imagery of a half-ass story most are trying to tell with their contemporary idea of what's good/publishable poetry.

For many, good = what's been published. So whether we admit it or not, what's good lies in the hands of the few that edit and publish the magazines and the handful of books. Therefore the new and old poets who wish to be read begin writing and emulating the prose poetry in print, the ones telling their indecipherable personal anecdotes with a tad too much surrealistic flavor.

I don't dislike all prose poetry, just the fact that almost everything I read in print seems to be missing a beat, any sort of music. I don't want a return to the Romantic Era, the Forms, perfect rhymed couplets and that sort of thing. But it's not horrible watching your metrical feet, using different bits of lyrical poetry and finding the beat once in awhile.

But then we, as poets who've had material published and with the benefit of hindsight, appreciate more the vagaries of the published word. I've have pieces in print that embarrass me now, and other pieces I'm proud to have out there and in the company of other writers whose work I admire. Entirely depends on the tastes of the subs editor and the agenda of the publisher. Which is why I take each poem as I find it, rather than what I'm told is 'good'. Some of the old so-called greats can leave me completely unmoved. Others send me into a state of delight

Still, when all's said and done, we usually have to read a whole lot of poor to middling material before we come across something amazing! Write it, too

[bflagsst]

Originally Posted by chipbutty

But then we, as poets who've had material published and with the benefit of hindsight, appreciate more the vagaries of the published word. I've have pieces in print that embarrass me now, and other pieces I'm proud to have out there and in the company of other writers whose work I admire. Entirely depends on the tastes of the subs editor and the agenda of the publisher. Which is why I take each poem as I find it, rather than what I'm told is 'good'. Some of the old so-called greats can leave me completely unmoved. Others send me into a state of delight

Still, when all's said and done, we usually have to read a whole lot of poor to middling material before we come across something amazing! Write it, too

When I have something published I'm happy for a few minutes then I read the rest of the poems I've been published with and it's a let down. I'm thinking: "I wouldn't read these other poems if mine weren't among them, so I'm sure no one's reading mine." That's why I'm not going to publish anything this year, maybe try and find other poets to publish my work with. Snobbery, arrogance, silliness or not, I want to decide for myself and also present what constitutes good poetry.

[butters]

Originally Posted by bflagsst

When I have something published I'm happy for a few minutes then I read the rest of the poems I've been published with and it's a let down. I'm thinking: "I wouldn't read these other poems if mine weren't among them, so I'm sure no one's reading mine." That's why I'm not going to publish anything this year, maybe try and find other poets to publish my work with. Snobbery, arrogance, silliness or not, I want to decide for myself and also present what constitutes good poetry.

oh ho, so true. that 'wow! I've been published' turns to 'holy shit, am I as bad as some of those?'. And yes, it sounds snobby, but it's true! BUT BUT BUT - the last book I was in was a compilation of the works of about 12 of us - we had a set amount of space each and I had 12 poems in there. But every one of those poets were people whose work I respected and was proud to be published alongside. Don't know if they felt the same. It came about through a smallish site and it was the idea of the owner to go ahead with it. For me, though, to have my work enjoyed by others i consider good poets means more to me than general acceptance overall.


god, that sounds awful. :blush:

[butters]

bflagsst - i kind of know where you're coming from here. Running your own site to promote the kind of poetry you'd like to see showcased might well be the way forward for you. This is what I did with my other site. I spent an awful lot of time trawling through the internet writing sites looking for 'talents'. The approached them to see if they were interested and showcased their work in my on-line library of poets. It suited me because I got to do the whole process of selecting and speaking with the various artists. It was a really interesting time for me and why i was tinkering with the idea of starting up again. But now I am busy chasing paid work and know i've not the time to devote to it that's required. You should go for it. You'd love it.

[Palba_Noruda]

Originally Posted by chipbutty

snobbery? lol

one thing i enjoy finding is a poem that works so well 'straight' but, when looked at metaphorically, is a whole other piece. but best of all is when all these things come together effortlessly (or appear to

I like how you put that, chipbutty. poems can communicate all kinds of other things than what the poet might be specifically trying to do.

I like to look back at old notebooks or files and notice how sometimes what I wrote at the time corresponded to something happening in my life that I wasn't thinking about at the time of the original composition, kind of like looking back on a dream and seeing that it corresponded to something from the day before but you didn't remember that when you were "composing" the dream LOL

[butters]

Originally Posted by Palba_Noruda

I like how you put that, chipbutty. poems can communicate all kinds of other things than what the poet might be specifically trying to do.

I like to look back at old notebooks or files and notice how sometimes what I wrote at the time corresponded to something happening in my life that I wasn't thinking about at the time of the original composition, kind of like looking back on a dream and seeing that it corresponded to something from the day before but you didn't remember that when you were "composing" the dream LOL

uhuh, the secret life of poetry

[heatherj43]

To me, a good poem evokes emotion from the reader. It can be positive or negative emotions, but does evoke them.
Also, I believe a saying I once read, unsure of who wrote it, but it said, "That which can be read with little effort, great effort has gone into its writing."
I try to write things that are easy to read.
I have only posted one poem on here, back in 2003, and its still here, but today I added 2 more.
The one that has been here for awhile, does evoke emotions. Its called, "Mother".

[PandoraGlitters]

Read this today and went wow. (btw not around much this weekend. burying grandmother on Tuesday)

http://anti-poetry.com/winterka2/

[DeepGreenEyes]

Originally Posted by PandoraGlitters

(btw not around much this weekend. burying grandmother on Tuesday)

I'm sorry.--

[smotherman]

For me a good poem is a combination of creativity, Deep meaning of what the poet is feeling.

[heatherj43]

As I said, and what most of you said, but in different words, its the reader who decides what a poem means or what it doesn't mean. Thus, it should evoke emotion to someone, and it is better if its to the reader and not the writer.
I know my poetry never means to others what it meant to me, yet they shed tears or smile, where I don't expect them to.

[butters]

Originally Posted by smotherman

For me a good poem is a combination of creativity, Deep meaning of what the poet is feeling.

thankyou for your response, smotherman. words are our tools, the means by which we are able to share the emotional aspects with the reader.

Originally Posted by heatherj43

As I said, and what most of you said, but in different words, its the reader who decides what a poem means or what it doesn't mean. Thus, it should evoke emotion to someone, and it is better if its to the reader and not the writer.
I know my poetry never means to others what it meant to me, yet they shed tears or smile, where I don't expect them to.

to each reader, a new poem, it is said.and if your poetry can move people, then it must work for them. happy is the poet, though, who finds their readers fully understanding what the poet intended to show - and should they also find new aspects,new perspectives, happier yet.

[bflagsst]

I can't access any poems this morning. What if every poem was deleted, and Literotica ceased being a place for poems?

[butters]

Originally Posted by bflagsst

I can't access any poems this morning. What if every poem was deleted, and Literotica ceased being a place for poems?

then you and Epmd and the other editors here would have the impetus to start a brand new site?
maybe?