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Old 12-30-2013, 06:47 AM   #1
todski28
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Todski's Trivial Thoughts on

your poem, their poem any poem that catches my attention, engages me, and running commentary on the things I see, trying to get inside the piece, most of the crap I'll be rambling in here is all subjective opinion, I will attempt to be objective, but well it's going to be things I like so it's already a skewed perception. If your opinion differs, you see a flaw in my thoughts or insights or simply want to join in feel free, an open invite to all, some of the things I go through in here may be from threads, or new poems, anything posted here will also go out on the new poems page. I will ask the poets permission before I attempt to take a look at their poem, they may not want a walking talking monkey to sully their poetry by trying to get inside it.
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Old 12-30-2013, 07:04 AM   #2
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when the clowns have gone
poet Butters

questions

that make the mind make an instinctive jump to answer or chase the answer in the poem

there is a deep seeded melancholy in this for me,

the first line questioning

does the ringmaster never take off his hat?

makes me think of a constant professional that always wears his work, never lets his image or persona slip, a control freak at all time a "ringmaster" also ringmaster tends to bend ones mind in the direction of a circus.

second line reinforces the image of a dictatorial type leader

"too busy directing the marches"
----------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -----------------------
he'll watch you fall
smiling as the nets fail
the audience gasp

this here for me seems to shore up the notion that this man don't give a shit about you, or anyone bar his "show going on" at all costs, makes me think of a tight rope walker or trapeze artist attempting the impossible, for the sake of the show, and at the orders of the "ringmaster".
------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------
and all that's left
when the clowns have gone
are the rabbits
no miracles, no hats

something done fucked up in a big way, and mr ringmaster has high tailed it with his money, taking his clowns, his circus his hat with him, no miracles to help you,

the rabbits

lead me down a weird path, a grass meadow, a broken form, abandoned and wrappers flapping in the breeze, but the show must go on.

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Old 12-31-2013, 02:42 AM   #3
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back after work to comment.
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:38 AM   #4
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Surely all art/literary criticism is just subjective opinion? One can argue the toss why a particular poem or song or whatever becomes popular or is good but at the end of the day, its all just opinion. That said, a more intellectual approach to criticism is more likely to win over the opinion of others than rambling but hey, rambling can take you through some mighty fine landscapes!.

However, what makes something popular or good? I suspect we all have cultural dirty secrets. A secret liking for a Pet Shop Boys song or some crumby Hallmark rhyme we would be ashamed to admit to.

There is no way I'm admitting to mine though!
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:52 AM   #5
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My mind was where yours went, todski. There are only small differences in flavor:

The ringmaster never takes off his hat, so if you want to deal with him, you're part of the show. A dictator, yes, but there is also the feeling of him being a one man show, living for the gasps of the audience, in a fantasy, at the expense of his performers.

When you start to perform (and you will, if you want to be near him), he'll watch you fall, and even smile as the safety net fails. Which seems to mean that, instead of caring for those in his show, he takes delight in breaking them, if only to make the audience gasp.

When the show is over, the rabbits will be left exposed, without the magic that the circus once had. It's reality exposed. Which is strange to me, since rabbits are fluffy—I'd think reality would be ugly once the magic of the circus left. But perhaps that is exactly the point; the circus was a bad thing, after all.
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Old 12-31-2013, 04:55 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bogusagain View Post
Surely all art/literary criticism is just subjective opinion? One can argue the toss why a particular poem or song or whatever becomes popular or is good but at the end of the day, its all just opinion. That said, a more intellectual approach to criticism is more likely to win over the opinion of others than rambling but hey, rambling can take you through some mighty fine landscapes!.

However, what makes something popular or good? I suspect we all have cultural dirty secrets. A secret liking for a Pet Shop Boys song or some crumby Hallmark rhyme we would be ashamed to admit to.

There is no way I'm admitting to mine though!
I agree with you on that point, it all being subjective, we all look at and interpret things in different ways, rambling, is about the best I can offer, it is as intellectual as I can offer with the education level I have. If nothing else people can point and laugh at the confused monkey using a key board

or it may spark up some debate and conversing on particular poems, I offer the floor in this thread for anyone to offer opinions on any poem, I started it in the hopes that I can understand poetry better from my perspective. but different angles, views and opinions open up things that we might miss, comments from ishtat and 1201 0n this poem suggest they didn't see what I did and there are poems that without someone's comment I never would have understood at all.

as for me, I really love to sing along to one direction songs
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Old 12-31-2013, 09:20 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todski28 View Post
I agree with you on that point, it all being subjective, we all look at and interpret things in different ways, rambling, is about the best I can offer, it is as intellectual as I can offer with the education level I have. If nothing else people can point and laugh at the confused monkey using a key board

or it may spark up some debate and conversing on particular poems, I offer the floor in this thread for anyone to offer opinions on any poem, I started it in the hopes that I can understand poetry better from my perspective. but different angles, views and opinions open up things that we might miss, comments from ishtat and 1201 0n this poem suggest they didn't see what I did and there are poems that without someone's comment I never would have understood at all.

as for me, I really love to sing along to one direction songs
When poetry stops being subjective, criticism can stop being subjective. We only worry about this kind of thing for the stuff we create. If someone says they like the scent of a rose over a gardenia, no one is going to dismiss it with "that's just your subjective opinion." Maybe someone will, but flowers don't get their feelings hurt when someone picks daffodils for an arrangement and leaves out the hibiscus.
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Old 12-31-2013, 09:38 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by todski28 View Post
rambling, is about the best I can offer, it is as intellectual as I can offer with the education level I have. If nothing else people can point and laugh at the confused monkey using a key board
I left school at 15 without a qualification to my name. I learnt by doing things and being too stupid to know I was making a monkey of myself. I eventually went to art college, spent six years studying art and I learnt two things; getting on in life is a contrick, we are all hustlers and prostitutes. The other that is that life is a sensual experience and to get the most out of that, you have to be honest with yourself and leave the contrick at the door.

Sheessh I should take up philosophy or is that cod-philosophy.
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Old 12-31-2013, 02:43 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsotha View Post
My mind was where yours went, todski. There are only small differences in flavor:

The ringmaster never takes off his hat, so if you want to deal with him, you're part of the show. A dictator, yes, but there is also the feeling of him being a one man show, living for the gasps of the audience, in a fantasy, at the expense of his performers.

When you start to perform (and you will, if you want to be near him), he'll watch you fall, and even smile as the safety net fails. Which seems to mean that, instead of caring for those in his show, he takes delight in breaking them, if only to make the audience gasp.

When the show is over, the rabbits will be left exposed, without the magic that the circus once had. It's reality exposed. Which is strange to me, since rabbits are fluffy—I'd think reality would be ugly once the magic of the circus left. But perhaps that is exactly the point; the circus was a bad thing, after all.
thanks, todski, tsotha, for your thoughts. you're both in the right ball-park - a manipulator who exerts extreme control over the actions of others, making them all performance acts in his 'circus', pushing people to attempt the impossible just to see if he can make them. we're all better off without the ringmaster in our lives. the audience are those watching the show, the clowns - well, the clowns are there for the jollies but we all know clowns are really sad, right? the hangers-on, who make fools of themselves because that's how they're wired. they'd be clowns, with or without a ringmaster, but they're something else he makes use of, whether they're in the ring or sitting in the audience.

the rabbits - the thinking behind this was about ideas and minds and the nature of rabbits (as perceived by many) - meek, but prodigious fuckers. without the ringmaster, there are still ideas - ideas, given time, which will inherit the earth (meek, again) by sheer dint of their ability to reproduce. so, whilst the rabbits might be first bemused, over time they're survivors.

the problem is likely that the piece was borrowed from ideas in this longer, prose-poetry/poetic-prose(?) thing, about my second marriage:

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost...&postcount=228
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:11 PM   #10
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thank you butters for the full disclosure on the piece, I'm glad to see that I wasn't at a total loss, being in the right ball park is at least surprising
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Old 12-31-2013, 03:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
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thank you butters for the full disclosure on the piece, I'm glad to see that I wasn't at a total loss, being in the right ball park is at least surprising
full disclosure - lols. that sounds so frightfully proper.

any ball-park problems are down to me not leaving enough crumbs to follow or using clearer signposts. trouble is, like you, i tend to think about that after the act.

i'll be most interested to read what your takes are on whoever's piece you next dive into it's a really good learning tool for writers to do what you're doing, when time permits.
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Old 12-31-2013, 04:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
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thanks, todski, tsotha, for your thoughts. you're both in the right ball-park - a manipulator who exerts extreme control over the actions of others, making them all performance acts in his 'circus', pushing people to attempt the impossible just to see if he can make them. we're all better off without the ringmaster in our lives. the audience are those watching the show, the clowns - well, the clowns are there for the jollies but we all know clowns are really sad, right? the hangers-on, who make fools of themselves because that's how they're wired. they'd be clowns, with or without a ringmaster, but they're something else he makes use of, whether they're in the ring or sitting in the audience.

the rabbits - the thinking behind this was about ideas and minds and the nature of rabbits (as perceived by many) - meek, but prodigious fuckers. without the ringmaster, there are still ideas - ideas, given time, which will inherit the earth (meek, again) by sheer dint of their ability to reproduce. so, whilst the rabbits might be first bemused, over time they're survivors.

the problem is likely that the piece was borrowed from ideas in this longer, prose-poetry/poetic-prose(?) thing, about my second marriage:

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost...&postcount=228
impressive read so many things/images in there. loss for words
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Old 12-31-2013, 04:08 PM   #13
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impressive read so many things/images in there. loss for words
dark times, spilled.
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Old 12-31-2013, 04:17 PM   #14
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dark times, spilled.
Don't eat the banana flavored confetti
strawberry mist sounds yummy 'tho
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Old 12-31-2013, 04:35 PM   #15
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Don't eat the banana flavored confetti
strawberry mist sounds yummy 'tho
todski should look into these enigmatic words ^
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Old 01-01-2014, 07:06 AM   #16
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todski should look into these enigmatic words ^
hmmm, I think they are beyond me....
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Old 01-01-2014, 07:30 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butters View Post
the problem is likely that the piece was borrowed from ideas in this longer, prose-poetry/poetic-prose(?) thing, about my second marriage:

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost...&postcount=228
Wow, that's a pretty powerful piece.


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hmmm, I think they are beyond me....
Well, the banana flavor means that... That... And the confetti... No, nevermind.
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Old 01-01-2014, 08:39 AM   #18
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Quote:
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hmmm, I think they are beyond me....
deep, huh..

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Wow, that's a pretty powerful piece.




Well, the banana flavor means that... That... And the confetti... No, nevermind.
from dark days. now long gone.

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Old 01-03-2014, 08:23 AM   #19
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well next on the list

Tristess2 Walter and the Naiad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naiad wiki's description of what a naiad is

the title opens up the piece using naiad in the title it allows me to suspend reality and delve into the "magic" created,

first line of the first stanza gives a sense of Walter being an old man, lonely and effort being the key words that imprint the image,

His lonely walk takes effort,

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

adding to Walters further woes it's freaking hot, oppressive brings to mind a heat that actually stoops your walk, no shade or breeze makes you think desert, doctors orders reinforces walter as an old man,

oppressive heat,
no shade or breeze.
Doctor's orders, still he rebels.
About to turn back

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this foreshadows the rest of the poem and adds a suspense where you have to read on to find out what is so captivating, the word vouyer brings the image of nakedness and a hint of something a bit "naughty" leans on his cane, you picture walter doing a double take to make sure he is seeing what his brain is telling him he is seeing.

he glances over the lake,
he is no voyeur,
cannot pull his eyes away
but leans on his cane
afraid to blink.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is a delicious image, just enough details to underpin the scene, allows the reader to fill in the rest, the liquidity in the scene adds the right layer of smooth femininity, a woman playing naked in water what's not to love?

the imagery in the final line here is beautiful.

Breathtaking,
pale against dark ripples,
she bends, splashes a hand
as she wades. Water consumes her,
knees,
thighs
and, as it laps at her buttocks
she turns to reveal a dark triangle
and chill-sharpened nipples.
Eyes blissfully closed she falls

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

tristess2 flirts around the edges of the word wet, through out the piece but doesn't actually use it which I feel heightens the piece, by writing around it there is no need to use it because she implies it in the whole piece, it is all "wet"

1201 left a comment regarding the line "in cool youth" I agree with him, but one small blemish for me does not dissuade from the whole piece.
the meeting, it seems as if Walter has shed his age in a moment of magic, eagre with his body responding, "in a lazy crawl" builds the tension, her smile accepts his intent as her intent

backwards, submerging
then surfacing, her hair slick.
He realizes she is unaware
of an audience, aches to join
her in cool youth.
Seconds it seems, he is naked too,
knee deep, then at her side
in a lazy crawl
he hasn't done for years.
She smiles, unsurprised.
Swims beside him
easily.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this line here is an absolute winner for me, as a cabinet maker the implication of the word "dowel" is perfect, as a dowel joint is a round piece of timber that slides into a perfectly sized hole to join two pieces together, I am jealous I missed it in my own work

His hand explores, a thick,
throbbing dowel grows


from his groin.
Her hand is there,
guiding him, warmth gloves him
in sweet softness as her legs wrap him.
He bucks her mulishly, e

very muscle, joint
and part working as it should,
as it could in younger years.
They swim and float as one,
he rooted in her,
she nurtures his desire until,
with a howl of submission,
his release echoes over still waters.

She sinks now,
below and away,
he can see her smile
so clear is the water,
until she twists
fish-like and is gone.

the rest speaks for itself, one of the most erotic pieces I have read here,
next to the eroticism there is an undercurrent of life and death, age suspended for a moment of sexuality that transcends death, the natural urges of human nature and the integral part of life.

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Old 01-03-2014, 11:50 AM   #20
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I interpreted "her in cool youth" literally unlike you and 1201 because of the "oppressive heat" at the beginning of the poem. Lakes are, more often than not, "cool," particularly those in forests or mountains, although nowhere in the poem are either mentioned. Perhaps I'm projecting my own image there, and I lived where there's "oppressive heat," I might not have seen it that way.

I also associated the line with "fountain of youth," although I can see your and 1201's interpretation of the line as well.

I'd be interested in knowing what Tess has to say about this line.
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Old 01-03-2014, 03:00 PM   #21
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thank you for your thoughts greenmountaineer, something I didn't consider, I just felt the line could be deleted and not detract from the piece. the best thing for me about poetry gm is we invest our own experiences and life into it to complete the picture. I mentally went to a desert with a small oasis, as opposed to a mountain side looking at your interpretation in context changes the line entirely
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Old 01-03-2014, 03:21 PM   #22
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Smile In defence of cool youth

And thank you both for your considered observations.

I used the "cool youth" line to reach several points...

1. Walter's longing for youth and "coolness" once more.

2. to emphasize the age discrepancy.

3. to re-enforce the heat of the day and the delicious cool of the lake.

I stand by it still, I like the "oo" echo and it precedes the slow crawl as W swims to her side.
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Old 01-04-2014, 01:02 AM   #23
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And thank you both for your considered observations.

I used the "cool youth" line to reach several points...

1. Walter's longing for youth and "coolness" once more.

2. to emphasize the age discrepancy.

3. to re-enforce the heat of the day and the delicious cool of the lake.

I stand by it still, I like the "oo" echo and it precedes the slow crawl as W swims to her side.
thanks for this, as GM pointed it out this morning I have been dwelling on it most of the day, with it explained in context, and the sound variant you have pointed out, I will have to read it again with the context in mind, however will I manage that

thank you for the permission to put this up and thanks for the explanation.
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Old 01-05-2014, 03:11 PM   #24
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Thank you for taking an interest - and gm. I'm always interested on the take others have on my stuff. Everyone's poetic eye sees differently and it's great to see what they see.
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Old 01-05-2014, 03:17 PM   #25
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i'm off all week so plan on coming in to leave comments on tess' piece as well as others todski might post about.
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