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Judaism, religion or ethnicity?

WriterDom

WriterDom

Good to the last drop
Joined
Jun 25, 2000
Posts
20,077
It seems if you are born Jewish, you are a Jew no matter what. While a Christian can become an atheists, or scientologist or whatever he and she wants and isn't forever identified as a Christian. And this might be off base but most of the Jews I've run across don't seem to be very religious at all. Granted I've only had one Jewish friend in my life.
 
Technically, it's both. It's heritage, similar to being Irish or Italian or German or Chinese or Korean or anything else like that. You can convert to Judaism, religiously, as well, even if you aren't of Jewish heritage, though my understanding is it's a little more stringent than joining most of the Christian denominations.

I know there are quite a few other people around here that could answer that question much better than I can, though.
 
It's not easy to become a Catholic. Not if you have been baptized. You have to confess all of your sins. I wouldn't know where to even start. :confused:
 
Well, yeah, its both. I'm not religiously Jewish but I am from a Jewish family, and so am both ethnically (as in, I have a greater chance of having Tay-Sachs than a gentile), and culturally Jewish.

I've known people who liked to argue about this and whats the point? Its such a non-argument.
 
00Syd said:
Well, yeah, its both. I'm not religiously Jewish but I am from a Jewish family, and so am both ethnically (as in, I have a greater chance of having Tay-Sachs than a gentile), and culturally Jewish.

I've known people who liked to argue about this and whats the point? Its such a non-argument.
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I agree, there's nothing really to debate about with it other than simple understanding. You are what you are. It's almost like debating whether a citizen of the Vatican is a Catholic or Vatican citizen. You can't change your heritage, nor the genes that come with them. The culture tends to go along with that. The religious side of things becomes a more personal choice, though in many situations religious choice is a culturally influenced thing.
 
It is a religion, an ethnicity, and a culture. And it is possible to be any combination of these these three in any amount. MIS is Jewish by religion, culture, and ethnicity, but doesn't look stereotypically Jewish. viv is matrilineally Jewish technically speaking, but has neither Jewish religion or culture in her upbringing.
 
I think a lot of the confusion about the Jewish people, and the Jewish religion, comes from the fact that up until the 1950's the Jewish culture/heritage/gene pool had no home land of their own.

Example: Greece. Being a Greek. A person of Greek decent, or born in Greece. Now, it's perfectly logical that a person can be if direct Greek decent but not be a member of the Greek Orthodox Church, or vice versa.

But, since the Jewish peoples never had a homeland, they could only be refereed to by the one thing that separates them from the rest of the world-wide general populous, their religion. If Israel had been in place, say.... around the time of Ramses I then if a person wanted to know another persons heritage the question wouldn't be, "Are you Jewish?" the question would be, "Are you Israeli?" If they wanted to know that same persons religious slantings then the question would remain, "Are you Jewish?"

See what I mean?

For most sociological groups, where you are from and what religion do you follow are two independent concepts. For the Jewish people, who never had a land of their own, their religion was their homeland.
 
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Homburg said:
viv is matrilineally Jewish technically speaking, but has neither Jewish religion or culture in her upbringing.
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That's me. i'm somewhere between half and 3/4 jewish (not sure exactly, cause my family hid their jewish roots after the holocaust), but was raised christian with a christian standard american culture.
 
BlitzKrieger said:
For most sociological groups, where you are from and what religion do you follow are two independent concepts. For the Jewish people, who never had a land of their own, their religion was their homeland.
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Oh man, I read a whole book once about how a huge amount of the Jewish Culture is shaped by the fact that we are, in a sense, "homeless." I'm not sure I agreed with absolutely everything the author said, but a pretty interesting read nonetheless.
 
Homburg said:
. viv is matrilineally Jewish technically speaking, but has neither Jewish religion or culture in her upbringing.
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That's my dad. He is from Florida, and his mothers family is from South Carolina, and has been living there for a whole ton of generations. Because of where they were living, and the time they were living there, they hid their Jewish heritage to avoid discrimination to such an extent that their cultural and religious Jewish-ness is almost non-existent. My dad would light the candles on Hanuka with his family, but that's about it. They didn't even know the prayer. They celebrated Christmas.

I get all of my cultural Jewishness from my mom and her side of the family. She certainly didn't celebrate Christmas growing up!

I know the prayer you say when lighting the candles at Hanuka because of of my mom, and thanks to my dad, I get presents on Christmas :D
 
I am Jewish. But then again, I am also an interesting case.

In the Jewish faith, a person is inherently Jewish, both ethnically and religiously, by having a mother who is Jewish. My mother is Catholic, and my father is Jewish. As my mother explained to me, its tradition in Catholicism to take the religion of your father.

In other words, I cancel myself out with regard to inheriting a religion.

I was, however, raised in a more open situation. I was neither baptized or attended Hebrew school (the latter because the nearest synagogue was about a 45 minute drive from my house, and not driving on the Sabbath didn't really work well with that). I was not confirmed nor did I have a Bar Mitzvah. However, I do relate more to the Jewish core values and beliefs.

I do find it funny though how people consider someone to be partially Jewish. I was made fun of mercilessly in middle school and high school for being "half Jewish." Since I didn't really have a Jewish cultural upbringing I took being Jewish in more if the faith based idea, and so being half of a religion always seemed strange to me.

You're religious beliefs, if reflecting the certain teachings of an organized religion, shouldn't be considered in saying you are only partly something, IMHO.

-----

But even so I think it boils down to something similar to the whole "American" debates.

When you ask someone born in America their heritage they could give you a laundry list of nationalities that are in their family. I do the same thing. I am, nationality wise, Russian, Italian, German, and Irish. But when someone asks me my heritage I usually say "American," since I was born in the U.S. and was brought up culturally there.

But that's just my thoughts on it.
 
DiscusDave said:
But even so I think it boils down to something similar to the whole "American" debates.

When you ask someone born in America their heritage they could give you a laundry list of nationalities that are in their family. I do the same thing. I am, nationality wise, Russian, Italian, German, and Irish. But when someone asks me my heritage I usually say "American," since I was born in the U.S. and was brought up culturally there.

But that's just my thoughts on it.
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This is a result of multiple waves of immigration. There were many LARGE influxes of immigrants from various nationalities, and they tended to settle in areas together. This is why you have things like Chinatowns, Pennsylvania Dutch, etc. These people immigrated, but sought some of the comfort they left in keeping to their displaced fellows.

There is also the idea that you, as an individual, are the accumulation of thousands of years of history and breeding. Knowing from whence you came, and whence your ancestors came, gives you some sense of cultural identity beyond the vast blandness that is generic American culture. This is also why we have regional cultures and nomenclature.

If anything, this country is too large. We lack a national culture and national identity simply because of geographical distance. I have vastly more in common with people in North Carolina and Tennessee than I do folks in Arizona or Illinois. But I can say that I am part Japanese, and some guy from California might ask what kind? I say Japanese and he says he is too. We find some additional common ground there beyond the simple label of "American".

Much like any other label, ethnicity can be a tool to find commonalities between disparate people, even when it is as shaky and dissolute as the mutt backgrounds of most Americans.
 
Homburg said:
If anything, this country is too large. We lack a national culture and national identity simply because of geographical distance.
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This. It bothers me that I can travel to Idaho and feel just as much like I'm in a foreign country as I do in Amsterdam, and even more so than I do in Canada.
 
00Syd said:
This. It bothers me that I can travel to Idaho and feel just as much like I'm in a foreign country as I do in Amsterdam, and even more so than I do in Canada.
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Come to Georgia. I bet you never even tried boiled peanuts.
 
00Syd said:
This. It bothers me that I can travel to Idaho and feel just as much like I'm in a foreign country as I do in Amsterdam, and even more so than I do in Canada.
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Why does that bother you?
 
BiBunny said:
Why does that bother you?
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I don't know. I guess that as much as I love diversity, I also envy the unity that some countries have; the same way that as non-religious as I am, I sometimes envy the feeling of community that religion can bring. I wish I could relate more easily to more of my fellow American's than just those who grew up in the 5 boroughs.
 
00Syd said:
I don't know. I guess that as much as I love diversity, I also envy the unity that some countries have; the same way that as non-religious as I am, I sometimes envy the feeling of community that religion can bring. I wish I could relate more easily to more of my fellow American's than just those who grew up in the 5 boroughs.
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I sometimes feel like the only people I can relate to are people who grew up like me, too. But I think the more people I meet from varied backgrounds, the easier it gets. Usually, LOL.
 
BiBunny said:
I sometimes feel like the only people I can relate to are people who grew up like me, too. But I think the more people I meet from varied backgrounds, the easier it gets. Usually, LOL.
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Haha yeah, key word "usually."
 
I should not feed this odd little WD-obsession, but I can't help myself. I so suck.

Homburg said:
It is a religion, an ethnicity, and a culture. And it is possible to be any combination of these these three in any amount. MIS is Jewish by religion, culture, and ethnicity, but doesn't look stereotypically Jewish. viv is matrilineally Jewish technically speaking, but has neither Jewish religion or culture in her upbringing.
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graceanne said:
That's me. i'm somewhere between half and 3/4 jewish (not sure exactly, cause my family hid their jewish roots after the holocaust), but was raised christian with a christian standard american culture.
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In case anyone's curious...

There is Jewish ethnicity and Jewish according to Jewish law, as DD said. So viv is ethnically Jewish and Jewish according to Jewish law. Graceanne, you may be ethnically Jewish, but you aren't "technically" Jewish unless your mother was or you convert.

DiscusDave said:
I am Jewish. But then again, I am also an interesting case.

In the Jewish faith, a person is inherently Jewish, both ethnically and religiously, by having a mother who is Jewish. My mother is Catholic, and my father is Jewish. As my mother explained to me, its tradition in Catholicism to take the religion of your father.

In other words, I cancel myself out with regard to inheriting a religion.

I was, however, raised in a more open situation. I was neither baptized or attended Hebrew school (the latter because the nearest synagogue was about a 45 minute drive from my house, and not driving on the Sabbath didn't really work well with that). I was not confirmed nor did I have a Bar Mitzvah. However, I do relate more to the Jewish core values and beliefs.

I do find it funny though how people consider someone to be partially Jewish. I was made fun of mercilessly in middle school and high school for being "half Jewish." Since I didn't really have a Jewish cultural upbringing I took being Jewish in more if the faith based idea, and so being half of a religion always seemed strange to me.

You're religious beliefs, if reflecting the certain teachings of an organized religion, shouldn't be considered in saying you are only partly something, IMHO.

-----

But even so I think it boils down to something similar to the whole "American" debates.

When you ask someone born in America their heritage they could give you a laundry list of nationalities that are in their family. I do the same thing. I am, nationality wise, Russian, Italian, German, and Irish. But when someone asks me my heritage I usually say "American," since I was born in the U.S. and was brought up culturally there.

But that's just my thoughts on it.
Click to expand...

I don't think you can be half a religion, but you can be half of an ethnicity. Your dad is ethnically Jewish, so you are half Jewish. I mean, so goes that logic, although I wouldn't describe someone that way.
 
intothewoods said:
I should not feed this odd little WD-obsession, but I can't help myself. I so suck.





In case anyone's curious...

There is Jewish ethnicity and Jewish according to Jewish law, as DD said. So viv is ethnically Jewish and Jewish according to Jewish law. Graceanne, you may be ethnically Jewish, but you aren't "technically" Jewish unless your mother was or you convert.
Click to expand...

Actually . . . my mom is and her mom is . We aren't sure past that, but we THINK her mom was. Honestly, that's where we get into the whole 'hiding' thing. My Grandma's family came over from Germany during the great depression they had before Hitler came into power. If you asked her family if they were Jewish they'd hit you. But can you blame them with everything that was going on? But we have family who remember playing in a ballroom with a giant star of david on the floor - so we're pretty sure they were Jewish.

I don't think you can be half a religion, but you can be half of an ethnicity. Your dad is ethnically Jewish, so you are half Jewish. I mean, so goes that logic, although I wouldn't describe someone that way.
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If you wanted to be very technical Jewish is the religion, Hebrew is the ethnicity. So in most cases is would be more specific to say you (general you) and I are Hebrew, but that confuses some, so I usually just say Jewish.
 
graceanne said:
Actually . . . my mom is and her mom is . We aren't sure past that, but we THINK her mom was. Honestly, that's where we get into the whole 'hiding' thing. My Grandma's family came over from Germany during the great depression they had before Hitler came into power. If you asked her family if they were Jewish they'd hit you. But can you blame them with everything that was going on? But we have family who remember playing in a ballroom with a giant star of david on the floor - so we're pretty sure they were Jewish.
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Interesting!



If you wanted to be very technical Jewish is the religion, Hebrew is the ethnicity. So in most cases is would be more specific to say you (general you) and I are Hebrew, but that confuses some, so I usually just say Jewish.
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Member of the Hebrew tribes? Well, I suppose, although I've never heard anyone use this term, except for the whole "member of the tribe" expression.
 
intothewoods said:
Member of the Hebrew tribes? Well, I suppose, although I've never heard anyone use this term, except for the whole "member of the tribe" expression.
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Most people haven't, but if you think about it that's what they, Jews, were called even in the time of Jesus.
 
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