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Old 09-07-2010, 06:10 PM   #2701
Naughtius Maximus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vetteman View Post
Not really. They are non-interest bearing, and they do not meet the legal definition of a note in that they no longer say how they are to be redeemed and they are no longer a promise to pay in "lawful money" as required by law. See USC 12 Section 411:

Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank.

There's a reason for the term "lawful money," it's in the Constitution Article I Section 10, "make anything but gold or silver coin a tender in the payment of debts."
Yes, really. The Federal Reserve Note is a promise to pay. It is loaned into existence and draws interest as long as it circulates.

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Fact is a Federal Reserve Note is not lawful money as it is defined in the Constitution.
That's certainly true enough.
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Old 09-07-2010, 06:21 PM   #2702
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Originally Posted by JohnnySavage View Post
I don't youtube (no speakers (I want my computer to be like my women, do what I tell it and don't talk back)) so I can't click on the links.

Not really an issue for me though. I like the monetary system we have now and wouldn't change a thing. Of course, in a generation physical money will be gone and we will use biometrics to credit or debit our accounts.
No need to click on the links, just wanted you to see the flow of the conversation.

As for the rest. You'd need new legislation and and amendment to the Constitution I would think. You might ask yourself, if the Dollar is no longer fixed to gold, why does the government horde so much of it?
 

Old 09-07-2010, 06:27 PM   #2703
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Originally Posted by Byron In Exile View Post
Yes, really. The Federal Reserve Note is a promise to pay. It is loaned into existence and draws interest as long as it circulates.

That's certainly true enough.
Doesn't produce any interest for you unless you put it in a bank, but I see what you mean about it producing interest for the banker, which is exactly how they create money. What does the Federal Reserve Note promise to pay? Where does it promise to pay? How does it conform to USC 12 Section 411? It does not say it can be redeemed in "lawful money" as required by law.
 

Old 09-08-2010, 06:56 AM   #2704
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Originally Posted by Ulaven_Demorte View Post
You've been banging that "broken window fallacy" parable of Bastiat's for quite some time now. Ignoring of course that it's focused only on microeconomics and trying to apply the rather limited application universally.

Even intentional destruction of real value may not result in a net loss. For example, destruction during wars has more often than not led to forced modernization and innovation of technologies resulting in an overall increase in productivity.

Also, Bastiat's parable relied on the implication that the little boy who broke the shopkeeps window had been hired to do so by the glazier in order to increase his business and that the new windows held no increase in value over the old.

In your effort to force the Broken Window parable to fit your narrative you have ignored the fact that there is no "little boy" hired to destroy our infrastructure, that it must be constantly maintained due to the wear and tear of use and natural erosion by natural forces.

Infrastructure repairs are essential and have been ignored for far too long. Our roads and bridges must be maintained and expanded to support the population, many of whom could not go to work and support the economy without the results of these "socialist" projects.
There is a little boy, his name is "equality."

Bastiat's parable is about the artificial interference of government in the economy. If you like, I can cite all sorts of other references which don't require you to go googling for a critique of that which you don;t understand...

How many bridges and roads are in need of "repair" that the first shovel-ready stimulus did not cover? Is this an admission that the money went to the political class for redistribution?
 

Old 09-08-2010, 06:57 AM   #2705
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Originally Posted by richard_daily View Post
Without working "socialist" highways, business falters. Without working "socialist" rail, business falters.

Additionally; right wingers try to state that WW2 jump started the economy after the great depression, NOT the new deal, so if that's the case, it's a perfect example of right wingers using the broken window theory themselves...
Really? Then how did we get along before all those socialist programs?
 

Old 09-08-2010, 06:58 AM   #2706
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Originally Posted by koalabear View Post
Someone should have noticed we already had the highway stimulus and all it did was buy expensive signs.
We noticed. The problem with Obama is that when he speaks, we're to erase our memories of everything that has gone before...
 

Old 09-08-2010, 06:59 AM   #2707
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Originally Posted by ivantheterrible View Post
sept. 7th 2010


http://finance.yahoo.com/

10% unemployment in the near future? don't sound so good. what about those who fell off the roles? underemployed? or now on welfare, if they have kids. or couch surfing while on food stamps and no unemployment or welfare except food stamps?
The real number is much higher. That's the one the libs liked to tout when Bush was in office.

 

Old 09-08-2010, 07:00 AM   #2708
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Originally Posted by Ham Murabi View Post
Socialist rail systems like Burlington Northern?
*chuckle*




Don't you know it was the Socialists exploiting the Italians and Chinese...
 

Old 09-08-2010, 07:24 AM   #2709
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The scattershot nature of President Obama’s latest economic proposals is a sign that the administration is starting to panic — and panic it should: The GOP’s advantage in generic-ballot polling is approaching historic proportions. But the composition of the proposals also tells us something else: The administration knows it is losing its fight to let certain of the Bush tax cuts expire — even though it now has explicitly ruled out a compromise on extending them — and it is making one last push to buy leverage for its position by offering “targeted” tax cuts to the business community.

“Targeted” is one of this administration’s favorite words, second only to “inherited,” as in, “To address the severe crisis he inherited, President Obama pushed for a stimulus that was timely, targeted, and temporary.” But what we have learned from the stimulus is that Congress has exceptionally bad aim, and that temporary measures to boost the economy do little more than steal demand from the future. The Cash for Clunkers program boosted car sales for the two-month window of its existence, but it was followed by a steep drop a few months later: Average the two time periods together and you get no noticeable change in demand. The temporary Homebuyers Tax Credit had a similar effect on home sales, with transactions spiking the month before the credit expired and then plummeting in the months after.

Having spent the last 18 months binging on stimulus sugar and enduring the consequent crashes, Obama suggests we return to the cookie jar with a temporary credit that would allow businesses to take an immediate 100 percent deduction for new capital and equipment expenditures made between now and the end of 2011. (Under current law, businesses must spread the deduction out over seven years.) A permanent credit of this sort might make sense as an option for businesses, but a temporary credit is a bad idea. Just as Cash for Clunkers and the Homebuyers Tax Credit distorted demand for cars and homes without really stimulating it, a temporary deduction for capital expenditures would encourage firms that were already planning on building new plants or buying new equipment at some point to make those investments in 2011 rather than 2012, but it probably wouldn’t be enough to persuade them to invest in the absence of such plans.

Obama also proposes to expand and make permanent a tax credit for research-and-development expenditures. This would be an improvement over the status quo, under which this tax credit has been “temporary” for government accounting purposes but consistently reauthorized since its creation in 1981. By itself, the policy isn’t objectionable, but it’s being offered in exchange for a worse overall tax climate: The administration has almost certainly oversold the benefits of expanding the credit, which would be small compared to the costs of raising tax rates in a weak economy. Increasing tax rates on income, dividends, and capital gains, even if those hikes were confined to the top two brackets, would weaken incentives for some of the country’s most productive individuals and profitable small businesses to work, invest, hire, and grow. A slightly bigger write-off for R&D isn’t sufficient to cushion that blow, and business owners know it.

No list of proposals from this president would be complete without new spending, so the president has also asked for $50 billion to fund a new “infrastructure bank” that would make loans for transportation projects. It’s important to keep in mind that the government can’t pay for the transportation projects it already has. The Highway Trust Fund is insolvent, and the Democrats aren’t willing to raise the gas tax that funds it, even though they’ve tried every other way they can think of to make fossil fuels more expensive.

It isn’t clear where the administration would get the money to fund the government’s share in this new bank, though its spokesmen have suggested, as they have with regard to every other new spending request, that raising taxes on oil-and-gas companies and “closing loopholes” might cover part of the cost. Nor is it clear how the bank would attract private capital. Toll roads and other revenue-generating projects might be attractive to investors, but these kinds of projects aren’t exactly political winners. The worst-case scenario, which we can easily imagine, would involve giving private investors an incentive to bring their money to the table by insuring them against losses and letting them keep most of the profits while making taxpayers shoulder all of the risk. Haven’t we seen this movie before? Remind us: How did it end?

If this summer’s employment and housing numbers heralded the death of the latest Keynesian revival, then Obama’s latest raft of stimulus proposals indicates that he has reached the bargaining stage of grief. He is tacitly acknowledging that tax relief is the best medicine for an ailing economy, but he is trying to hold on to the idea that government still knows best where that relief should be “targeted,” and he’s asking for just $50 billion more in new spending in exchange. He still thinks we should let the Bush tax cuts expire, even as key senators in his party and his own former OMB director have abandoned that view. The sooner Obama gets over the denial stage, reaches the acceptance stage, and embraces a pro-growth tax policy, the sooner we’ll exit the depression stage and get on the road to recovery.
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We would put a cap-and-trade system in place, eh, that is as aggressive, if not more aggressive, than anybody else's out there. So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can. It's just that it will bankrupt them because they're gonna be charged a huge sum for all that, uh, greenhouse gas that's being emitted.

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Old 09-08-2010, 07:16 PM   #2710
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Originally Posted by Frisco_Slug_Esq View Post
Editors
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Yeah but nobody is stupid enough to get their information from the NRO, right?
 

Old 09-08-2010, 07:57 PM   #2711
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Originally Posted by cebalrai View Post
Yeah but nobody is stupid enough to get their information from the NRO, right?
Right. Everyone knows Cash for Clunkers kick-started the industry and new car sales have been through the roof since then.
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Old 09-08-2010, 07:59 PM   #2712
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Originally Posted by Ham Murabi View Post
Right. Everyone knows Cash for Clunkers kick-started the industry and new car sales have been through the roof since then.

Do you get your "information" from right-wing propaganda as well?
 

Old 09-08-2010, 09:13 PM   #2713
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Bam, "we need billions in this bailout";

Hillary......no,no,no..........

"Our rising debt levels (pose) a national security threat," she said.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...ngerous-world/


HILLARY IN 2012>>>>>>>>>>>>HAHAHAHAHAHA
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Old 09-08-2010, 09:25 PM   #2714
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Originally Posted by koalabear View Post
Hillary......no,no,no..........

"Our rising debt levels (pose) a national security threat," she said.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...ngerous-world/


HILLARY IN 2012>>>>>>>>>>>>HAHAHAHAHAHA

Yoyu'd rather vote for Republican front-runner Sarah Palin? I'm sure she'd do just fine going toe-to-toe on the international stage with Dmitri Medvedev.
 

Old 09-08-2010, 09:32 PM   #2715
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Yoyu'd rather vote for Republican front-runner Sarah Palin? I'm sure she'd do just fine going toe-to-toe on the international stage with Dmitri Medvedev.
You just keep worrying about Palin, dingle-berry.
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:13 PM   #2716
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Originally Posted by koalabear View Post
You just keep worrying about Palin, dingle-berry.

Exquisitely pertinent.

 

Old 09-08-2010, 10:31 PM   #2717
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Yoyu'd rather vote for Republican front-runner Sarah Palin? I'm sure she'd do just fine going toe-to-toe on the international stage with Dmitri Medvedev.
Do you suppose she'd bow?
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:34 PM   #2718
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Originally Posted by mercury14 View Post
Yoyu'd rather vote for Republican front-runner Sarah Palin? I'm sure she'd do just fine going toe-to-toe on the international stage with Dmitri Medvedev.
Couldn't be worse than Obama and his world apology tour.
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Old 09-09-2010, 12:08 AM   #2719
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Bam said only one honest thing today in his speech at an Ohio CC, "taxes will go up substantially next year for everyone". Imagine that.
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:01 AM   #2720
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Originally Posted by koalabear View Post
Bam said only one honest thing today in his speech at an Ohio CC, "taxes will go up substantially next year for everyone". Imagine that.
And then the economy will really take off, right?
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Old 09-09-2010, 01:45 AM   #2721
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Obummer!
 

Old 09-09-2010, 07:55 AM   #2722
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Originally Posted by koalabear View Post
Bam said only one honest thing today in his speech at an Ohio CC, "taxes will go up substantially next year for everyone". Imagine that.
OH NO WAY do they go up for the middle class!


Just the greedy, evil rich who provide them goods and services...

Well need an anti-dog-eat-dog law.



*spit*
 

Old 09-09-2010, 08:11 AM   #2723
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Here we go again!

Arming the new ACORN...

Giving them the ability to find racism and extort lenders...

Quote:
Mortgage servicers are now expected to record the race of all their clients — including those expressly unwilling to provide one. In order, naturally, to stop discriminatory lending.

The Home Affordable Modification Program (HAMP) is a creature of the Obama administration. It advertises itself as helping “financially struggling homeowners avoid foreclosure by modifying loans.” Sounds important. But its new guidebook reveals an intention to do more than just that. On page 28, the guidebook reminds lenders that HAMP “solicits data related to the race, ethnicity and sex of the borrower and co-borrower, referred to as Government Monitoring Data (GMD).”

All nonsense, you might say, but nothing new — many government programs, including the Census, collect racial data. But usually, respondents can opt out of classifying themselves. Under HAMP’s new guidelines, by contrast, lenders are required to ignore such conscientious objections. See section 4.1.2.1, on page 31: “If a borrower declines to provide GMD, the servicer should attempt to provide the information based on visual observation, information learned from the borrower or surname.” Presumably, “visual observation” means skin tone, a “surname” can suggest country of origin, and “information learned” accommodates almost anything that can fit a stereotype. Note also the word “declines,” as opposed to “neglects”: Those who check the box that says “I do not wish to furnish this information” will have it furnished for them.

...

This new guideline is a response to the Obama administration’s fears of discrimination against minorities in mortgages, fully displayed in Assistant Attorney General Thomas Perez’s testimony before a House subcommittee four months ago. He called “fair-lending issues” a “top priority for the Civil Rights Division.” The new HAMP guidelines will ensure a complete racial taxonomy of mortgage clients. Everyone must be categorized so the Justice Department can prove discrimination beyond a reasonable doubt.
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/print/245978
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Old 09-09-2010, 09:31 AM   #2724
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I have the Trouload on nuke but could somebody make sure he's sitting down then pass this along to him, oh and tell the clown KO as well, thanks:

Report: Castro says Cuban model doesn't work


By PAUL HAVEN, Associated Press Writer Paul Haven, Associated Press Writer – Wed Sep 8, 3:18 pm ET

HAVANA – Fidel Castro told a visiting American journalist that Cuba's communist economic model doesn't work, a rare comment on domestic affairs from a man who has conspicuously steered clear of local issues since stepping down four years ago.

The fact that things are not working efficiently on this cash-strapped Caribbean island is hardly news. Fidel's brother Raul, the country's president, has said the same thing repeatedly. But the blunt assessment by the father of Cuba's 1959 revolution is sure to raise eyebrows.

Jeffrey Goldberg, a national correspondent for The Atlantic magazine, asked if Cuba's economic system was still worth exporting to other countries, and Castro replied: "The Cuban model doesn't even work for us anymore" Goldberg wrote Wednesday in a post on his Atlantic blog.

He said Castro made the comment casually over lunch following a long talk about the Middle East, and did not elaborate. The Cuban government had no immediate comment on Goldberg's account.

Since stepping down from power in 2006, the ex-president has focused almost entirely on international affairs and said very little about Cuba and its politics, perhaps to limit the perception he is stepping on his brother's toes.

Goldberg, who traveled to Cuba at Castro's invitation last week to discuss a recent Atlantic article he wrote about Iran's nuclear program, also reported on Tuesday that Castro questioned his own actions during the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis, including his recommendation to Soviet leaders that they use nuclear weapons against the United States.

Even after the fall of the Soviet Union, Cuba has clung to its communist system.

The state controls well over 90 percent of the economy, paying workers salaries of about $20 a month in return for free health care and education, and nearly free transportation and housing. At least a portion of every citizen's food needs are sold to them through ration books at heavily subsidized prices.

President Raul Castro and others have instituted a series of limited economic reforms, and have warned Cubans that they need to start working harder and expecting less from the government. But the president has also made it clear he has no desire to depart from Cuba's socialist system or embrace capitalism.

Fidel Castro stepped down temporarily in July 2006 due to a serious illness that nearly killed him.

He resigned permanently two years later, but remains head of the Communist Party. After staying almost entirely out of the spotlight for four years, he re-emerged in July and now speaks frequently about international affairs. He has been warning for weeks of the threat of a nuclear war over Iran.

Castro's interview with Goldberg is the only one he has given to an American journalist since he left office.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100908/...a_fidel_castro
 

Old 09-09-2010, 11:40 AM   #2725
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And then the economy will really take off, right?
Just as soon as we adopt the "Green" economy.
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