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The Doormat Discussion

BiBunny

BiBunny

Moon Queen & Wanderer
Joined
Dec 7, 2005
Posts
11,671
It's a hackneyed phrase we hear used all the time. "I'm a submissive, not a doormat!" Or "Stop being a doormat and letting him/her treat you like that." Or, from Dom/mes, "I don't want a doormat."

Hell, even I've used such phrases in the past. I don't think anyone's completely immune to this Castle Realm-y sort of staple.

But I've been thinking. I see the old cliche tossed around a lot on other message boards. (Not so much here, praise Jesus.) It normally comes from people with little face-to-face experience on these particular sites, but that may just be a function of the types of people those sites attract, rather than something statistically important.

The kind of attitude I see from most of the people who use the doormat analogy is something like "I'm really a loud-mouthed, do-me bottom, and I'm going to call anyone who makes me feel uneasy about my lack of 'submission' a doormat."

Now, I'm not starting this thread to argue with the way people label themselves. You can call yourself a pink-and-purple polka-dotted elephant if you like, and I won't say a word, but I won't necessarily agree with you in my mind if I see plenty of evidence to the contrary, even if I will nod and smile at you to keep the peace. I'm sure tons of people feel the same way about me as well, so no biggie.

Now that that's out of the way, I'm just curious about the doormat thing. What constitutes a doormat? Why is it considered such a derogatory term? Do you think it's one of those things that reflects as much on the name-caller as the name-callee?

Also, feel free to discuss whatever that's kinda related to the doormat thing, not necessarily just my specific question. I thought it might be an interesting discussion, and I figured we needed one of those to combat the influx of kids at home from school over the summer. ;)
 
More often than not I hear the doormat thing in a self-identifier way - "I'm Susie super-submissive, but..." That's what's always fascinated me... the defensiveness [on the subject] from the submissive perspective.
 
CutieMouse said:
More often than not I hear the doormat thing in a self-identifier way - "I'm Susie super-submissive, but..." That's what's always fascinated me... the defensiveness [on the subject] from the submissive perspective.
Click to expand...

Yep, I've noticed the same thing. Why do you think that is? (That's both general "you" and specific, CM, "you" for those of you keeping score at home.)
 
I'm certain I did this in the beginning too. I think that it is somewhat unsettling to accept your sexual desires. In the case of a submissive, yelling "I'm no doormat" is a way to feel like you are in control of this thing.

Or it's said by people who don't really understand submission. That's also possible, but I thought I'd offer another point of view.

If I think about my headspace in the beginning, probably both of the above were true for me. Hadn't really experienced a D/s relationship and definitely wanted to grab control of this thing that felt very out of control.

As for whether a doormat is negative...in power exchange relationships, it depends. You also see many PYLs say they want someone with an opinion, who speaks her/his mind, etc. I think all of those broad statements don't have a lot of meaning outside of an individual relationship. Who knows what the reality is when someone says they're not a doormat? Or that they're a "gentleman dom," for that matter.
 
There's a difference between a savvy sub who submits to a PYL and an introverted person with low self esteem who defers to anyone else who crosses their path. That's what I think of when we're talking doormats. I also view as doormats people who submit to those whose idea of BDSM is not SSC and who pass off abusiveness, control and a need to domineer rather than dominate as kink. Those who imagine they're in a healthy dynamic when everyone else disagrees fall into the doormat category for me.

I'm being rather arbitrary with my definition of the word but then people are when judging others on a handful of anonymous forum posts.
 
BiBunny said:
Yep, I've noticed the same thing. Why do you think that is? (That's both general "you" and specific, CM, "you" for those of you keeping score at home.)
Click to expand...

(This make not make any sense at all.... loooooooong first day at work today. Damn I need wine.)

Discomfort with the identity of "submissive", and a desire to fit in... ironically enough in a "community" that takes pride in not fitting in.

As a [big picture] society, we send subtle messages 24/7 that demurring to another is a sign of weakness. Putting someone else's needs/opinions/wants/desires ahead of one's own is co-dependent. Giving up one's ability to have the final say is irresponsible. Such things go so strongly against the grain, fight the current of common practice with such force - that obviously people who do that [submit] don't get it. This [submission] is not normal.

However, IMO the kink community contributes to the stereotype just as much as everyday society. Its much sexier to talk about the erotica/fantasy side of things, or do the whole third-person-speak, or spend time talking about pulling off a weekend being caged, than discuss how to breakdown household chores, or what if the PYL needs business advice from the pyl (who happens to be a better business person), or who really controls the money [budget]. We are just as guilty of digging the chasm as the "vanillas" (gawd I hate that term) are.

IMO there is such a glaring disconnect between the fantasy of submission and the reality of submission, that it's like an auto-response to defend/justify/explain why [generic] you don't fit that [doormat] description of submission.

** Side note - IMO, PYLs, especially the sadistic bastards of the bunch (said with much affection), go through much the same thing, just from a very different perspective.
 
My first thought is that a submissive acts from strength; a doormat doesn't.


I differentiate the two in a similar manner as Velvet Darkness.
 
Any submissive who has to proclaim they are not a doormat is indeed...a doormat and thinks that by making the proclamation no one can see the truth lol.
I have read terrible things written right here on these forums about how a sub COULD NEVER be a slave. It was belittling to them etc and so on, and then they meet "Mr Dom of thier dreams" and suddenly kneeling in the middle of the park whilst on His leash is the most woderful thing in the world.


Me...I like the whole doormat idea but in a way that is M/s. If he wants me to be his doormat and use me to wipe his feet then I am His doormat. I don't see anything wrong with that and I tend to think I am pretty submissive. *shrug*
 
CutieMouse said:
(This make not make any sense at all.... loooooooong first day at work today. Damn I need wine.)

Discomfort with the identity of "submissive", and a desire to fit in... ironically enough in a "community" that takes pride in not fitting in.

As a [big picture] society, we send subtle messages 24/7 that demurring to another is a sign of weakness. Putting someone else's needs/opinions/wants/desires ahead of one's own is co-dependent. Giving up one's ability to have the final say is irresponsible. Such things go so strongly against the grain, fight the current of common practice with such force - that obviously people who do that [submit] don't get it. This [submission] is not normal.

However, IMO the kink community contributes to the stereotype just as much as everyday society. Its much sexier to talk about the erotica/fantasy side of things, or do the whole third-person-speak, or spend time talking about pulling off a weekend being caged, than discuss how to breakdown household chores, or what if the PYL needs business advice from the pyl (who happens to be a better business person), or who really controls the money [budget]. We are just as guilty of digging the chasm as the "vanillas" (gawd I hate that term) are.

IMO there is such a glaring disconnect between the fantasy of submission and the reality of submission, that it's like an auto-response to defend/justify/explain why [generic] you don't fit that [doormat] description of submission.

** Side note - IMO, PYLs, especially the sadistic bastards of the bunch (said with much affection), go through much the same thing, just from a very different perspective.
Click to expand...

Mmmmmhmmm. Definitely. I keep poking around Fetlife looking for some totally real, super-real, we really mean it no fakin real 24-7 discussions ;), but it's all blah blah bullshit. I wouldn't mind seeing more nuts and bolts conversations.
 
Sir_Winston54 said:
Doormat: Just lies there and says, "Welcome."
Click to expand...
:devil: Now THAT could open a whole new discussion. :D

Doormats. I haven't really given this much thought, but I have (now that it's been mentioned) noticed how many "sub ads" actually say the whole submissive-not-doormat thing. Interesting. Could it be a simple fear of being viewed as weak? I don't know. :eek: Since I don't really fit into any BDSM labels, I'll leave this to the D/s experts.

I would gladly lie by my front door to welcome my PYL home though.:devil:
 
Kajira Callista said:
Any submissive who has to proclaim they are not a doormat is indeed...a doormat and thinks that by making the proclamation no one can see the truth lol.
I have read terrible things written right here on these forums about how a sub COULD NEVER be a slave. It was belittling to them etc and so on, and then they meet "Mr Dom of thier dreams" and suddenly kneeling in the middle of the park whilst on His leash is the most woderful thing in the world.


Me...I like the whole doormat idea but in a way that is M/s. If he wants me to be his doormat and use me to wipe his feet then I am His doormat. I don't see anything wrong with that and I tend to think I am pretty submissive. *shrug*
Click to expand...

:heart:

And that refers to both the former and latter sections.

--

intothewoods said:
Mmmmmhmmm. Definitely. I keep poking around Fetlife looking for some totally real, super-real, we really mean it no fakin real 24-7 discussions ;), but it's all blah blah bullshit. I wouldn't mind seeing more nuts and bolts conversations.
Click to expand...

I see way more of those sort of discussions around here, actually. Hell, Eastern Sun's thread, while admittedly poetic and well-written, is nuts and bolts.

--

So my buddy AP is kink-friendly. I've introduced him to it, taught him some stuff, and basically got him associated with the scene. He has gone on and made some friends of his own in the scene and is basically comfortable with it. Yet when I talk about my own relationship, and submissives in general, he usually says, "No way, man. I don't want a doormat." It makes me laugh. Honestly. He couldn't actually handle most of the submissives I know.

Not knocking my friend, but he still has the typical outsiders view of it, and he sees my two and their reactions, and interprets that as doormat behaviour. *shrug*
 
I think doormat, in most cases, is a term born out of ignorance.

I think subs use it when they find themselves slipping into this world deeper and deeper without really knowing what to expect. It can be scary, and when scared people want control.

I think it’s also used by doms to make themselves appear more acceptable. As in I may beat chicks but I’m not an over controlling psycho.

Now the problem arises when you actually have people who are doormats and enjoy being so.

Its kind of like the term gay, “dude that’s so gay”, used as an insult.
 
You know what I think? I think as a whole we're misusing the term 'doormat",

I personally believe that the difference between a sub and a doormat is that a doormat sort of person doesn't necessarily have to even BE INVOLVED in BDSM in any way, shape or form.

A doormat sacrifices their own happiness past the healthy point for the sake of a bad relationship.

A doormat stays IN a bad relationship for fear of the unknown, poor or no self esteem, codependency issues, weakness, or all of the above.

A doormat submits to bad treatment and/or abuse(not necessarily BDSM) that causes actual harm (not sexy "god that's really hot" hurting) that is potentially fatal and/or irreparable.

"Doormat" and "Submissive" are not necessarily interchangeable terms, because to be honest with you, there's an issue of consent out of willingness, enjoyment and/or satisfaction and consent out of fear. I stayed with my ex, who abused me horrifically, and in my eyes I technically consented to his abuse by staying. I was a doormat. I left him because I didn't want that anymore. Now I am a submissive. In my eyes, there is a HUGE difference.

In short:

Submissive=healthy

Doormat=not healthy
 
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VelvetDarkness said:
There's a difference between a savvy sub who submits to a PYL and an introverted person with low self esteem who defers to anyone else who crosses their path. That's what I think of when we're talking doormats. I also view as doormats people who submit to those whose idea of BDSM is not SSC and who pass off abusiveness, control and a need to domineer rather than dominate as kink. Those who imagine they're in a healthy dynamic when everyone else disagrees fall into the doormat category for me.
Click to expand...

by this definition and most others, i am a doormat. personally i believe in natural dominance and submission...and i realize that "natural" is another one of those combustible terms in the online lifestyle world. but when i use it, i am referring to people who simply are who they are, who have a dominant or submissive personality and who are living their life in accordance with that. i admit to being completely repulsed (mentally) by the idea of dominance or submission as "kinks." i do not understand the submission as a gift thing. i do not understand submission as something that exists only within a particular circumstance, or only with a particular awesome individual who "inspires" it in you. i don't understand dominance within such contexts either. the man most would label as a domineering a-hole, i view oftentimes as a natural dominant.


so yes...i am a doormat. but the thing about that is, i refuse to be ashamed of that. too much of my life was spent being ashamed of who i am, and feeling worthless and unlovable because of this submissiveness that i just couldn't control no matter how hard i tried. now i see the value in who and what i am, and i see the beauty in being a doormat. i am sooooo glad that Bunny started this topic, as it is one i have long wished to discuss as well. WHY is "doormat" a curse word in the lifestyle, why is it looked down upon or seen as a defect for a submissive to have these qualities?
 
ownedsubgal said:
by this definition and most others, i am a doormat.

*Snip*
Click to expand...

Funny. I thought the same thing about myself in reading through some of the responses on this thread and in reading the things in other places that prompted this thread.

I've been working like crazy all day, so I haven't had time to address each person specifically in this thread like I'd like. But this is turning into a super-interesting topic, and thanks to everyone for making it so. Hopefully, I'll have something better to say tomorrow than "I'm soooo tired!"
 
BiBunny said:
It's a hackneyed phrase we hear used all the time. "I'm a submissive, not a doormat!" Or "Stop being a doormat and letting him/her treat you like that." Or, from Dom/mes, "I don't want a doormat."

Hell, even I've used such phrases in the past. I don't think anyone's completely immune to this Castle Realm-y sort of staple.

But I've been thinking. I see the old cliche tossed around a lot on other message boards. (Not so much here, praise Jesus.) It normally comes from people with little face-to-face experience on these particular sites, but that may just be a function of the types of people those sites attract, rather than something statistically important.

The kind of attitude I see from most of the people who use the doormat analogy is something like "I'm really a loud-mouthed, do-me bottom, and I'm going to call anyone who makes me feel uneasy about my lack of 'submission' a doormat."

Now, I'm not starting this thread to argue with the way people label themselves. You can call yourself a pink-and-purple polka-dotted elephant if you like, and I won't say a word, but I won't necessarily agree with you in my mind if I see plenty of evidence to the contrary, even if I will nod and smile at you to keep the peace. I'm sure tons of people feel the same way about me as well, so no biggie.

Now that that's out of the way, I'm just curious about the doormat thing. What constitutes a doormat? Why is it considered such a derogatory term? Do you think it's one of those things that reflects as much on the name-caller as the name-callee?

Also, feel free to discuss whatever that's kinda related to the doormat thing, not necessarily just my specific question. I thought it might be an interesting discussion, and I figured we needed one of those to combat the influx of kids at home from school over the summer. ;)
Click to expand...

I think the displays that people put on to say "I'm not a doormat" are generally unattractive ones and people should be themselves. However the displays people put on to display that they're Dominant are usually equally as much of a cold shower to me, when they're just that - conscious displays.

Some people won't attract me and some will. A person's submissiveness is one of a number of factors.

I have no interest in someone who is submissive to me because I'm there at the right time and gosh darn it, I've got a pussy! I get interested in these games if there's sufficient cash involved, but as relationships, hell no. My lack of interest in the person who says yes to everyone is simply that I fail to trust their attachments to saying yes to *me.* I can't trust that. Perhaps in the economy of women vs. men on top I have more reason to be suspect of motives, even. I'm more often fetishized, and I have every right to want to be selected for myself, not for my mere availability.

At the same time I'm also completely uninterested in being tested. I run the testing. I disengage from game playing quite quickly.

I can't even begin to ponder this question from the bottom end, it makes my brain explode.

Suffice it to say I've never felt the need to explain that I'm "not a doormat" in that exact phrase. I think it's fairly clear that I'm not for public consumption.

Frankly I think that the interpretation that a submissive/switch woman is some kind of communal touch giggle and fondle slut commodity has a lot to do with the neurotic setting of boundaries. If that's your thing, rock on, but it's not mine.
 
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BiBunny said:
You can call yourself a pink-and-purple polka-dotted elephant if you like,
Click to expand...

Oh, the temptation. I don't know if I'll be able to resist next time someone starts a 'what your label' thread.

Don't worry. I'll give you credit.

BB said I can call myself a pink and purple dotted elephant! So there. :p

Kajira Callista said:
Why does that sound so fuckin' hot!?
Click to expand...

Because you're horny.

*pats hand* Glad I could answer your questions. I'm here every day from 9 to 5 (pm and am, respectively).
 
I know we don't want to take this thread down a label road, and I also want to say I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU CALL YOURSELF, but I consider 'doormat' another label. It's a phrase people use about themselves or other people to label themselves (or others) neatly and put them in a nice little box. What's one person's doormat is another persons slave, and what's one person's slave is another persons sub. The nice thing about labels it they're open to interpretation.

I, personally, have decided from this point out that I'm a pink and purple dotted elephant. I can't wait to tell K. :p

I also think that when people first come to groups to learn about BDSM that they've been reading too much erotica, and have some weird ideas about BDSM, so they want to make sure that no one thinks they're 'that kind of sub/slave' (whichever kind they read about and freaked them out).
 
BiBunny said:
IWhat constitutes a doormat? Why is it considered such a derogatory term? Do you think it's one of those things that reflects as much on the name-caller as the name-callee?
Click to expand...
Most often, people seem to equate "doormat" with: "person submitting in way I consider unhealthy and/or outrageous."

Just as, most often, people seem to equate "domineering asshole" with: "person controlling in a way I consider abusive and/or unreasonable."

In the above, "I" = the person applying the doormat or domineering asshole label.


Generally speaking, the difference between kinky and non-kinky people, when it comes to applying these labels, is that the line between that which is perceived to be outrageous and reasonable shifts somewhat. But the usage itself is, essentially, the same. The purpose is to disparage the behavior of people behaving in a way one finds objectionable.
 
i am a slave. i dont refuse him anything he wants. i put my Master first. i do for him things i would never do on my own. things i had no interest or desire in doing. i'll do for him what he wants when he wants it, whether i was sleeping, busy, or sick.

does that make me a doormat or just obedient? somebody who cant think for themselves or just a good slave?

my ex used the term doormat a lot. he said it like it was derogatory, a bad word. he put me down about it, then issue an order, daring me to disobey and prove him wrong. but i couldnt win there either, because disobeying was certainly not acceptable, no matter what his previous opinions on doormats were.

it was a bad situation, but i learned from it. i learned that "doormat" is a powerful image. i also learned that technically, yeah, i guess we all are doormats at some point or another, but that isnt a bad thing. a submissive submits. there is nothing wrong with that. a slave surrenders. there is nothing wrong with that. "doormat" holds no real meaning. its sole purpose is to be derogatory and fire people up.
 
my "label" as one would put it...is Sir's dedicated submissive. That's all i need to identify myself within this community.

Now, does Sir treat me with love and care, or abuse? He treats me as a valued and cherished possession, to be treasured. He does not, nor will He ever abuse me or put me in an unhealthy situation. That is part of my trust in Him. And i have enough self-esteem of my own to leave if a situation ever did become unhealthy for me and abusive. That is my yardstick..."is my life better because i am Sir's?" i never have nor will consider myself a doormat. i (and Sir wants it that way) have a brain.

But there are people who do think abuse = BDSM. i do not, and want to say "get the hell out of that relationship," but i can't save the world. Hopefully an abusee will be educated and see that the abuser is just that...a selfish son of a bitch.
 
For what it's worth:

I only read the term "doormat" in ads or profiles, I can't recall that someone ever used this term 1:1. Of course, if someone would use this, I would just say:"Of course you are not, a doormat with tits would be a tripping hazard. Now spread your legs wider."
 
Screw the entire concept, it is something that belongs in the vanilla world and with respect to vanilla relationships. There, a doormat is a person who doesn't put up any objections, who always or near always does what their partner asks/tells/suggests they should do, who offers no real input of their own into a relationship that's supposedly 50/50 and so on, so forth. Here, a shitload of pyls freely admit they don't put up any objections (often because it's not their place, for instance), even more near always do what their partner tells them to (not always 24/7, admittedly) and a fair chunk are...searching for a word that won't be offensive, a fair chunk are aware and happy to be in a relationship that isn't equal or where their opinion doesn't matter for shit. Trying to take a term from their world and apply it to ours works about as well as labeling somebody in a vanilla relationship who appears vaguely submissive as being a submissive.
 
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