the pyshological side of the "slave"

I was reading the very interesting thread by eastern sun, and have found that every sub has a different relationship with their Owner/Master. We have one sub who is treated as nothing more than a servant. No thought of her, her pleasure, or anything to her being. Then we have more ... equal ( for lack of better word) relationships, where the sub is cherished and adored, and yet still abused/used the way she desires. (I apologize if I offend any male slaves) I don't understand if subs can ask for more equal ground, or just have to take what's given to them. I have read up on the subject alot, and have interacted with many D/s relationships, and singles and have seen many heathly relationships, however I couldn't find any general rules for being a sub. I have been told I am too independant, or stubborn, or too outspoken. Is that just that certain Dom? or is there like *giggles* rules or a handbook?

thank you for your time.

Are you asking about submissives or slaves?

kiss_of_sin said:

I couldn't find any general rules for being a sub. I have been told I am too independant, or stubborn, or too outspoken. Is that just that certain Dom? or is there like *giggles* rules or a handbook?

thank you for your time.

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There are no general rules and no handbook. This isn't like playing a board game, this is you and your relationship with another individual.

And as for being told that you are "too independant, or stubborn, or too outspoken" to be a sub, well, that's multiple levels of silly.

I agnoized about just that very sort of thing in a somewhat recent thread. Its common to think "oh but I don't have X quality that all submissives have" or to have whatever other insecurity about your orientation that might crop up. Just because someone else says that you are too outspoken or indapendent to be submissive just means that you are too outspoken or indapendent for them, personally. There is no one way to be submissive, and there is not one kind of sub. Just like in the vanilla world, everyone is different. Just because you are a sub does not automatically make you a good match for just any dom. People are people. Being a 'sub' or 'dom' shouldn't be the first criteria for anyone as to whether or not someone will be a good match. So, if someone says you are too much something to be a sub, then find someone with whom you fit instead of trying to fit into somebody elses standards.

Unless you're into that, anyway.

Never heard of psyshogy myshelf... or should that be psyholoshy? Possibily a condition undushed by too many drinksh?

Scotsman69 said:

Never heard of psyshogy myshelf... or should that be psyholoshy? Possibily a condition undushed by too many drinksh?

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HAHA!

I had totally glossed right over that

kiss_of_sin said:

I have been told I am too independant, or stubborn, or too outspoken.

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If independent, stubborn, and outspoken were disqualifiers for that particular sexual orientation, a WHOLE lot of people would not be 'allowed' to call themselves submissives.

It doesn't matter how independent, how outspoken, or how stubborn you might be to the general populace. All that matters is that you are compatible with the person/s that you are with. If that person is a dominant and considers you submissive enough, well, I guess you're golden.

ok, the first thing you need to do is make the differentiation between slave and submissive. this will clarify a lot of things for you, as well as help you understand what you are looking for better (or at least express it to others better)

i've been both, and ive had the progression from submissive to slave within the same relationship. i speak from my experience, not the great book of all that is BDSM. ymmv.

submissive: the title is a great descriptor. someone who submits. somebody who gives up control to a certain someone or someone's. the amount of control is usually predetermined, ranging from "for the scene" to "for the course of this relationship". submissive will most likely have a safeword, a word the sub can speak to stop the activity if it gets to be too much. this word is usually used sparingly, if at all, but there is always the option. you may also hear talk of limits. hard limits are things the submissive can say will not ever happen, no way, no how. when i was a submissive, my hard limits were things like permanent marks (cutting to leave scars, branding, tattooing, piercing, etc)

slave: a slave is complete surrender. no safeword. no power to stop what is happening. no choice. a slave does not have the option or the right to impose limits. the limits they experience are the limits of their Master (ex: Master wont do scat play so by extension i wont). being a slave means being owned by another, heart, mind, body, and soul.

as a slave i have dont things that i wouldnt have wanted to, but did anyway becuase my Master wanted me to. i have endured more pain then i have wanted to, wishing silently i still had a safeword, but trusting that Master would stop before he hurt me. he did. i cherish the memory and where he took me that night. i have a his initial cut into one leg, a puzzle piece branded into the other. both things that used to be hard limits. both things i didnt have the choice to refuse as he did it.

they are very different animals. what is right for one person is not right for another.

the relationship between a master and a slave, or a dom and a sub, is based off of their interactions and their history. in both situations the slave or sub relies on thier partners knowledge of them. in both situations the type of relationship they share will differ based on the needs of the people involved. there is no rule stating that a slave must be "nothing more then a servant", but is probable that the slave that stays in a dynamic like this is happy in a dynamic like this.

find a person who knows you well enough to form a power dynamic you are happy in.

When I find her, my slave/sub or whichever flavor she turn out to be.... She can be as independent, outspoken, bitchy, arrogant or whatever to the rest of the world... just not with me.

Or no lap sitting or spankings.

I can give you at least one solid rule for being a "good" submissive or slave and that is... always being willing, ready and able to put your Dominants wants, needs and desires before your own and or always putting your Dominants wants, needs and desires before your own.

(But this is not necessarily so when it comes to that of a parent relationship and the parent's responsibility to their children)

Regardless of what level of control may you choose to give over to your Dominant, or your history together or your knowledge and understanding of each other...that rule remains the same.

Homburg said:

If independent, stubborn, and outspoken were disqualifiers for that particular sexual orientation, a WHOLE lot of people would not be 'allowed' to call themselves submissives.

It doesn't matter how independent, how outspoken, or how stubborn you might be to the general populace. All that matters is that you are compatible with the person/s that you are with. If that person is a dominant and considers you submissive enough, well, I guess you're golden.

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Ditto. I'm very independent, stubborn, and outspoken. Just not when it comes to my Master. I can be a bitch to anyone else I want. Some might argue that I'm not a "real" slave though.

nh23 said:

Ditto. I'm very independent, stubborn, and outspoken. Just not when it comes to my Master. I can be a bitch to anyone else I want. Some might argue that I'm not a "real" slave though.

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Oh everyone argues that we're not real slaves. It's all in our po' tiny, addled little minds doncha know?

To the OP; ignore me, I'm having a cynical day.

nh23 said:

Ditto. I'm very independent, stubborn, and outspoken. Just not when it comes to my Master. I can be a bitch to anyone else I want. Some might argue that I'm not a "real" slave though.

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VelvetDarkness said:

Oh everyone argues that we're not real slaves. It's all in our po' tiny, addled little minds doncha know?

To the OP; ignore me, I'm having a cynical day.

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Yes, you are both imaginary. Fortunately, I like using my imagination.

*cough*

VelvetDarkness said:

Oh everyone argues that we're not real slaves. It's all in our po' tiny, addled little minds doncha know?

To the OP; ignore me, I'm having a cynical day.

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Hey! I do happen to have a secret glow in the dark decoder ring. Want me to send you one? *hugs*

kiss_of_sin said:

I was reading the very interesting thread by eastern sun, and have found that every sub has a different relationship with their Owner/Master. We have one sub who is treated as nothing more than a servant. No thought of her, her pleasure, or anything to her being. Then we have more ... equal ( for lack of better word) relationships, where the sub is cherished and adored, and yet still abused/used the way she desires. (I apologize if I offend any male slaves) I don't understand if subs can ask for more equal ground, or just have to take what's given to them. I have read up on the subject alot, and have interacted with many D/s relationships, and singles and have seen many heathly relationships, however I couldn't find any general rules for being a sub. I have been told I am too independant, or stubborn, or too outspoken. Is that just that certain Dom? or is there like *giggles* rules or a handbook?

thank you for your time.

Click to expand...

Pfft! That sounds so ridiculous to me. Someone told you you're too outspoken, or stubborn, or independent to be a slave? Complete and utter nonsense, and I'll tell you why.

Dominance and submission are natural imperatives, not conscious choices; they are driven by instinct, not desire. Just as with dogs, an individual is born dominant or submissive. If the starving puppy nips at you when you take his food away does it make him any less of a submissive dog? Certainly not. Survival and self preservation are components of every animal's being, dominant and submissive alike.

A submissive does not submit because she wants to do it, but because she can't not do it. It is a natural impulse. The slave submits primarily to her own nature, however she requires an external focus for her submission, i.e. the dominant. Through the dominant she submits to herself by proxy.

So how will you know if you are a true submissive? It's simple really. If you are you will find your reason for being in service to others. Does this mean that you must submit to anyone and everyone? Certainly not. The submissive quality of any slave is introvert first, and extrovert second.

You are a source of power. The ultimate source of power in your life will always be you and nobody else. It doesn't matter how protective or strong your Master is, you are the driving force in your life. It is your right, your freedom to choose an appropriate individual to submit to, and in so doing you really have the power, the power to transfer your power to another. This is a very powerful act indeed, one that requires an iron will.

You do not have to submit your will to any tyrant who might take it in order to identify yourself as a submissive. In fact, you don't have to submit to anyone to be submissive, but I think you'll find that going through life without an extrovert focus for your submission will be very difficult indeed.

A dominant only has the right to determine how his own submissive should act, not another's. Those who go around questioning the devotion and submission of a slave who is not their own are insecure, ignorant beings indeed.

Oh, and just one more thing. The purpose of an S/M relationship is not dominance and submission, they are simply means to an end. The purpose, the driving force to pursue is fullfillment. Submission is not a gift to the dominant nor is dominance a gift to the submissive. The dynamics of a true S/M relationship are symbiotic. Both gets what they desire not out of conscious choice but by simply being. If you are not achieving fullfillment in your relationship then the driving force for pursuing the relationship is gone. The relationship will fall apart. It is a two way street. It is the nature of love, you cannot give a kiss without recieving one.

Adakgirl said:

I can give you at least one solid rule for being a "good" submissive or slave and that is... always being willing, ready and able to put your Dominants wants, needs and desires before your own and or always putting your Dominants wants, needs and desires before your own.

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Thibbbttttt!!!!!!!

(BTW - that is the sound of me sticking my tongue out and blowing a raspberry)

I'm sometimes willing to put my PYL's wants, needs and desires before my own but not always. Actually, I'm more often thinking about myself. But I'm still a REALLY FUCKING GOOD SUBMISSIVE.

So, no offense to you personally Adakgirl, but that shit drives me crazy.

00Syd said:

Thibbbttttt!!!!!!!

(BTW - that is the sound of me sticking my tongue out and blowing a raspberry)

I'm sometimes willing to put my PYL's wants, needs and desires before my own but not always. Actually, I'm more often thinking about myself. But I'm still a REALLY FUCKING GOOD SUBMISSIVE.

So, no offense to you personally Adakgirl, but that shit drives me crazy.

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Could you explain that a little more?

nh23 said:

Could you explain that a little more?

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By way of explaining I will point you to this thread: http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=654435 start reading at post #89

00Syd said:

By way of explaining I will point you to this thread: http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=654435 start reading at post #89

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I remember that thread but I didn't get the impression that you're "more often thinking about yourself," depending what "thinking about yourself" means, of course.

I do think that thinking about your needs and your Dominant's needs aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, even if you always put your PYL first.

00Syd said:

By way of explaining I will point you to this thread: http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=654435 start reading at post #89

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I read the link you gave. Thank You It seems more like in that thread you were discussing feeling uncomfortable with things you consider hard limits, but on things you don't consider hard limits..are you more likely to do what makes you happy or your PYL happy?

intothewoods said:

I remember that thread but I didn't get the impression that you're "more often thinking about yourself," depending what "thinking about yourself" means, of course.

I do think that thinking about your needs and your Dominant's needs aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, even if you always put your PYL first.

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Yeah, I don't know. I just never think "ok" before thinking about whether or not I want to do whatever it is that's being asked of me, and I very often think about what I want and what I need before I think about what my PYL wants and needs. But, I don't know. Maybe I'm not describing the way I think very well and misrepresenting what's actually going on.

I don't know.

It just really bothers me when these broad statements (that are generally agreed upon) are made about what submissives should be or do to be good submissives and then realize that, oh hey, I don't really fit that.

But, again, its all in that other thread. Go there for my feelings on the matter.

nh23 said:

I read the link you gave. Thank You It seems more like in that thread you were discussing feeling uncomfortable with things you consider hard limits, but on things you don't consider hard limits..are you more likely to do what makes you happy or your PYL happy?

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If given the choice, or if given a way to finagle the situation, yeah I'm more likely to do what... I wouldn't say what makes me happy, but what is more comfortable for me. I would never do something that would make my PYL unhappy, if I knew that that would be the result. But if there is something I can do that is more comfortable for me, that fulfills my needs, and yes, that makes me happy without causing discomfort or unhappiness in my PYL, then most likely I'm going to do that.

And I don't think that makes me less submissive. I think it just makes me a different kind of submissive than most people are used to running into.

intothewoods said:

I do think that thinking about your needs and your Dominant's needs aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, even if you always put your PYL first.

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And yeah, this.

But what if you don't always put your PYL first? It's like, once you say that, you're out of the club. Memberships been revoked.