I've found a fundamental truth.

And now I understand what it's all about. Life is looking good again.

Betticus said:

And now I understand what it's all about. Life is looking good again.

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Care to share this truth?

Inquiring minds...

~LB

Betticus said:

And now I understand what it's all about. Life is looking good again.

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Annnnnnnnnnnnd???? You can't just leave it hanging like that, share your insight.

I bet the answer is 42.

I can't think of a time that bett has put a fluff thread in talk. He's normally very good about keeping fluff to the cafe. That doesn't mean he won't screw with you, but since it's here I'm going to assume he's serious.

Betticus said:

And now I understand what it's all about. Life is looking good again.

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And this truth is something you wish to share? Or was that just a teaser?

Some of it gets philosophical but in a nutshell... we are all indoctrinated from birth to try to do the right thing, to make things fair and even, to see the good guy as the hero and so on...

So we tend to suppress our more base natures in favor of the ones that are taught by society, it's no big secret that those in bdsm tend to reject those moral teachings or at least parts of them. We also bend and give so that we don't end up being burned at the stake so we end up compromising.

I was contemplating this along with my own frustrations in trying to fit in. Specifically I was thinking of how I could not scare people or set off their sense of self preservation which makes them see me as someone dangerous. Well, it's not gonna happen so I decided that it's easier to just relax about it and be myself unapologetically.

This morning though I was pondering some of my own darker thoughts and desires and then it hit me. Sin. All of these things are either a sin or illegal or just plain damn kinky and pretty outside of the norm. I thought of the lil babies and how the established church says that they are innocent and free from sin. Then about how we are to avoid sinning or to punish ourselves for having sinned. It struck me that the church and society brainwashes us so that we grow old and die just as innocent as the lil babies.

This struck me as very wrong in that as with some of the more introspective religions say we are here to learn and grow. The Buddhists say we are seeking enlightenment and I think I've discovered some part of that.

We are all here not to remain innocent but to sin. It is through sin either real or perceived that we can examine our own darker natures. We come into the world innocent and clean but that isn't the way we should stay. We need to find everything within us both naughty and nice and explore it, understand it and fold it back into who we are as we learn and grow.

Some of these things can be done solo as in a thought exercise but that only gets one so far. We need partners who are willing to let us explore these parts of ourselves without judgement and with whom we can reciprocate and let them explore, understanding who they are as well.

Rasputin had a similar philosophy in part but his idea was to know what sin is by doing it so that you can know what you are repenting, cleansing from your soul in preparation for the afterlife.... I'm not buying this whole repent thing. It assumes one feels guilty about parts of themselves. I'm thinking that one has to accept every part of themselves and grow as a person. I think that once you master parts of yourself that a lot of stress goes away, obsessions go away and you can end up in a really lovely state of existence. With all of the evil one can imagine just below the placid surface, ready to come forth when needed as well as all of the loving, nurturing things.

Everything in moderation and in controlled fashion, you shouldn't run out and start robbing banks or raping nuns.

It also made me see that a lot of my daddy type, protective nature was a leftover artifact from the past where I've been conditioned to help others. So I'm done with trying to be good all the time and instead I'm going to be me, if that upsets some people it's not me who has the issue.

Sin? I can quote scripture all day long about how the wife is supposed to submit to the husband. The catch is the husband is supposed to love the wife as Christ loved us. Which means you have to be willing to be flogged with bones and rocks tied to the end of the tails and then nailed to a cross to die for her.

Not to put too fine a point on it, bett, but I've always liked you for who you are.

I only really meant to use the religious stuff to point out the depth of the brainwashing. It's not about religion so much, more just basic human nature and the way we are all wired. All of us different in our needs and thoughts but also almost all of us brought up in similar ethical systems.

I'm trying to wash these thoughts down to a simple statement that gets the message across. I like the term "Know Thyself" personally and the wiki is well stated and applies to this topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_thyself

The saying "Know thyself" may refer by extension to the ideal of understanding human behavior, morals, and thought, because ultimately to understand oneself is to understand other humans as well. However, the ancient Greek philosophers thought that no man can ever comprehend the human spirit and thought thoroughly, so it would have been almost inconceivable to know oneself fully. Therefore, the saying may refer to a less ambitious ideal, such as knowing one's own habits, morals, temperament, ability to control anger, and other aspects of human behavior that we struggle with on a daily basis.

No disrespect was intended to Betticus. i apologize for my stupid little Douglas Adams joke. i am sorry.

Betticus said:

I only really meant to use the religious stuff to point out the depth of the brainwashing. It's not about religion so much, more just basic human nature and the way we are all wired. All of us different in our needs and thoughts but also almost all of us brought up in similar ethical systems.

I'm trying to wash these thoughts down to a simple statement that gets the message across. I like the term "Know Thyself" personally and the wiki is well stated and applies to this topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_thyself

The saying "Know thyself" may refer by extension to the ideal of understanding human behavior, morals, and thought, because ultimately to understand oneself is to understand other humans as well. However, the ancient Greek philosophers thought that no man can ever comprehend the human spirit and thought thoroughly, so it would have been almost inconceivable to know oneself fully. Therefore, the saying may refer to a less ambitious ideal, such as knowing one's own habits, morals, temperament, ability to control anger, and other aspects of human behavior that we struggle with on a daily basis.

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But we're not all born into similar ethical systems, or similar enough that there's no conflict.

Christianity doesn't describe babies as free of sin at all - you come out chock full of sin. A little hand-dipped sin nougat covered in flesh.

You might like the Stephen Mitchell translation of the Tao. I will agree that the human tendency is to control all outcomes toward whatever we think is "good."

If we dropped that altogether and looked at what IS, how might that look?

I reject the whole sin/righteousness dichotomy to begin with.

The closest I get to "sin" is turning my back on my feelgood feminist upbringing.

Sexualinnocent said:

I bet the answer is 42.

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You called? LOL

Betticus said:

I only really meant to use the religious stuff to point out the depth of the brainwashing. It's not about religion so much, more just basic human nature and the way we are all wired. All of us different in our needs and thoughts but also almost all of us brought up in similar ethical systems.

I'm trying to wash these thoughts down to a simple statement that gets the message across. I like the term "Know Thyself" personally and the wiki is well stated and applies to this topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_thyself

The saying "Know thyself" may refer by extension to the ideal of understanding human behavior, morals, and thought, because ultimately to understand oneself is to understand other humans as well. However, the ancient Greek philosophers thought that no man can ever comprehend the human spirit and thought thoroughly, so it would have been almost inconceivable to know oneself fully. Therefore, the saying may refer to a less ambitious ideal, such as knowing one's own habits, morals, temperament, ability to control anger, and other aspects of human behavior that we struggle with on a daily basis.

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I also like the "To Thy Own Self Be True", because if I wanted to make those close to me happy (meaning family) I would of never explored the D/s life.

I think you would be interested in what Carl Rogers had to say.

He likes to pontificate and can come of as a soft spoken retard, but at the core he did some good work.

One concept he introduced was that in order to grow as ourselves, we should introspect even when emotion runs high. Ask ourselves, why do we like this, even if we are not supose to like whatever it is. That's similar to what you mentioned I think.

To sum his stuff up.

Don't limit yourself, understand what you feel and why in any given situation.

Come closer to what you are, not to what you think you should be.

Don't distort your experiences to match others, but know that others experiences will be diffrent.

Netzach, a baby isn't born full of sin unless their being parasites for ~9 months at the mother's expense (which is a willing thing; abortion [this isn't to turn into a right-or-wrong thing] is an option for mothers to remove babies) causes them to sin from birth. A baby doesn't have the physical drive or mental capacity to plan ahead their vices and pursue them. Safe to say, until a baby starts learning to mimic those around them and learn to manipulate by crying or anything else, a human baby is just an animal driven by instinct to survive. I could only see a baby as a sinner, or sinner material, if they were self sufficient but still leeched to their mothers against the mom's will. I believe sentience sums it up for when the border between possible sinner and impossible forms. Personal opinion, yes, but I still can't help but question that a newborn is a bundle of sin wrapped in a human body.

Back to the original topic at hand. Betticus' description of how he saw things reminds me incredibly of a web page explaining female ejaculation from morals to anatomy...

A passage in [url=http://www.the-clitoris.com/f_html/ejacula.htm]The Article[/url] said:

Women are expected to maintain a dry pristine appearance regardless of the activities they participate in. Mothers once told their daughters it was unwise to engage in sports, as boys would see them sweaty and disheveled, and this was seen as unattractive. Today, deodorant and antiperspirant ads drive home the idea, "Do not let them see you sweat." Women are told they need special stronger deodorants made specially for them. Tampon and sanitary napkin advertising often emphasizes the product's ability to conceal a woman's menstruation from others more than their primary task of absorbing menses; yet in the process they remind us that women do menstruate. Most women would prefer to have their fingernails ripped out one by one rather than be seen having an "accident," menstruating in public. Society and the media serve to create a barrier between women and their sexual pleasure.

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Essentially, the same thing. To remain socially / morally / publicly acceptable in many cases, you have to try to be something that you're basically not. The only way around being looked down upon for such vices is for people to finally even start to adopt the "Who the ____ cares what the norm is?" attitude. This doesn't mean flashing something like being gay in another's face or forcing your own vices on another; that just makes you an asshole if you try to make your way of life the other peoples'. But that's not the case here, and those are two distinctions that a lot of people seem to make today: they'll worry that what they do will get them shunned publicly when there are a lot of people who secretly like the same things, and feel pressured or "threatened" (ref: idiot in Spanish class 10th grade who felt like I was coming onto him because I told him I'm bi) by something they don't like themselves, when nothing's being forced on them. Lack of common sense, aye?

So, congrats to Betticus on reclaiming his individuality with enjoying the "sins" of being himself. ^^

Netzach said:

A little hand-dipped sin nougat covered in flesh.

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Mmmm... sin...

Kikori said:

Netzach, a baby isn't born full of sin unless their being parasites for ~9 months at the mother's expense (which is a willing thing; abortion [this isn't to turn into a right-or-wrong thing] is an option for mothers to remove babies) causes them to sin from birth. A baby doesn't have the physical drive or mental capacity to plan ahead their vices and pursue them. Safe to say, until a baby starts learning to mimic those around them and learn to manipulate by crying or anything else, a human baby is just an animal driven by instinct to survive.

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Hey it's not MY bag, I'm just saying if you're going to add Christianity, that's historically the view we're talking about. That natural-ness of children? Sin, from which one must guide them. I think some of the newer thought is moving away from this bit by bit, but it worked for them for about 500 years at least, and to some measure them is us if we're part of western culture, it's hard to suddenly dispense with.

Personally I think babies are generally not filled with any kind of sin, nor inherent goodness, just germs. Lots and lots of germs.

Netzach is absolutely correct. Christianity is based upon all human beings being born in sin because OF the 1st sin committed by Eve & Adam. Christianity teaches that we are born carrying their sin. The theology goes that we live with that sin, as well as our own sins until we see the light, that we regret and repent of our sins and believe in only one God and that Jesus Christ is the only begotten son of God, who was sent here by him in order to spread his word, teach us the right way to live and who sacrificed his own life in order to relieve us of our sins.

We must also believe he was resurrected by God his father , so he could rise up and stand by his hand. So that after we die, Jesus will return then he will fight the evil one and all his forces and will overcome all evil. Then there will be a judgment day when all who believed in him will be born again unto everlasting life.... already freed from sin. All who did not choose to believe in him will be cast down into the pit of hellfire.

That's how I have understood Christianity, it is based upon the premise that we are born in sin.

I was contemplating this along with my own frustrations in trying to fit in

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So I'm done with trying to be good all the time and instead I'm going to be me, if that upsets some people it's not me who has the issue.

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That's strange..I haven't sensed even a hint that you were struggling to fit in...to fit in here anyway. Are you sure you have been trying to be good? I think it's your nature to be good. That's ok because you can be a good person, a kind, protective loving person and still at the same time be and evil and bad person when it comes to being sadistic and doing sadistic things , having sinful thoughts of torture, rape ect.

To me evil, bad dangerous people are people who hate everyone but themselves are unable to love, who distrust everyone, who refuse to help others and who will turn their backs on people in need, who lie, cheat, steal, commit murder, Show no mercy, who have no remorse or sense of right and wrong.

Those are the kind of people I believe are evil dangerous and bad. I don't see any of those traits in you Bett, by what I have read of you anyway.

Ok, let us toss theology completely aside and go just with human behaviour. We all have darker sides to our nature.

I'm feeling here that the thing to do is not fight that darker nature but instead to wholly incorporate it into our self which will yield a person who is complete or as complete as he/she can be. Not to just let that darkness out to play once in a while in a dungeon but to use it to our utmost advantage daily in life. Like not being a sucker for a salesman or politician. Not letting co-workers, friends, spouses, bosses take advantage of us.

I think that once the pent up frustrations are let out and have reached an even point then you can take control of them and use them like tools.

I also don't think it's wrong to lie, cheat, manipulate, twist and override the will of others. As long as you are having fun... your idea of fun may differ from mine.

For instance, if I ever became a psychologist or psychiatrist I wouldn't be doing it to "help" others but for my own personal gain. I might "help" others in the process but not out of some universal sense of good.

And God/Satan... not buying it.. I see that whole thing more as a description of the most extreme ends of human behaviours. That we all have both in us but most lie somewhere in the middle.

Betticus said:

Ok, let us toss theology completely aside and go just with human behaviour. We all have darker sides to our nature.

I'm feeling here that the thing to do is not fight that darker nature but instead to wholly incorporate it into our self which will yield a person who is complete or as complete as he/she can be. Not to just let that darkness out to play once in a while in a dungeon but to use it to our utmost advantage daily in life. Like not being a sucker for a salesman or politician. Not letting co-workers, friends, spouses, bosses take advantage of us.

I think that once the pent up frustrations are let out and have reached an even point then you can take control of them and use them like tools.

I also don't think it's wrong to lie, cheat, manipulate, twist and override the will of others. As long as you are having fun... your idea of fun may differ from mine.

For instance, if I ever became a psychologist or psychiatrist I wouldn't be doing it to "help" others but for my own personal gain. I might "help" others in the process but not out of some universal sense of good.

And God/Satan... not buying it.. I see that whole thing more as a description of the most extreme ends of human behaviours. That we all have both in us but most lie somewhere in the middle.

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This makes sense to me, I guess it's the epiphany that maybe being liked by everyone you encounter isn't all it's cracked up to be. I stand behind that.

I've done some wrong things in life that I would do no other way. At my core they're right even if they don't look it. Other people are sometimes much more responsible and much more complicit in their own suffering than the usual narrative says, and they're responsible for their own interests. If they fall asleep at the wheel on that, it's not my problem.

If I became a shrink, partly it would be about my ego, that I could do such a thing. Partly it would be my ongoing curiosity about other people and my competence with a problem. And the helping part wouldn't suck, but would not be the main motivator. Frankly, if it's the first thing you think of you're much more likely to burn out altogether.

Not to just let that darkness out to play once in a while in a dungeon but to use it to our utmost advantage daily in life. Like not being a sucker for a salesman or politician. Not letting co-workers, friends, spouses, bosses take advantage of us.

I think that once the pent up frustrations are let out and have reached an even point then you can take control of them and use them like tools.

I also don't think it's wrong to lie, cheat, manipulate, twist and override the will of others. As long as you are having fun... your idea of fun may differ from mine.

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Oh, I let my frustrations out, if a person is frustrating me I let it out on them. I tell them they are frustrating to me... in no uncertain terms. But I am careful not to let my frustrations out in on those who have nothing to do with causing them.

I don't allow myself to become a victim of anyone who I perceive to be trying to advantage of me. I have always been protective of myself in that manner. I'm not sure if it's "letting my dark side out" at all. To me it's just a natural, sensible way to be.

I also don't think it's wrong to lie, cheat, manipulate, twist and override the will of others. As long as you are having fun... your idea of fun may differ from mine.[
For instance, if I ever became a psychologist or psychiatrist I wouldn't be doing it to "help" others but for my own personal gain.

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I think it's wrong to lie, cheat, manipulate and override the will of another to have fun, unless it's done by consensual agreement. Even then, I think it's wrong to lie. Though I think everyone lies at one time or another.

Shrinks do manipulate their clients at times, but that is part of what they do to get to certain goals and to help them improve lives. You would have to be there to "help" because that is the basic premise of the entire psychiatric profession, to help people work out their problems in order to live a better life, or to put them in a place where they won't be a danger to themselves or others.

But that is not lieng or cheating or twisting their will, and the only time a shrink would have to override your will is if your will was harming you, messing up your life or harming others.

So I don't quite understand your thought process regarding that.

I think that we all lie all the time without even knowing it. We lie via body language incessantly, wearing makeup or dressing to cover flaws is a form of lie..

We may inadvertently lie by making statements of which we cannot be 100% sure of.. "yeah, I'll be there" .. "I'll call you tomorrow" .. you don't know if you'll even be alive to be there or make the call. Politicians lie so much they even believe themselves.

We lie for self preservation, for love, money, sex, safety, etc... ad nauseum..

Knowing that we are all born liars and that we do it seemingly due to genetic selection why not take it the extra step and let ourselves accept that we are creatures of misdirection and subjective truths.