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Old 03-02-2009, 11:03 AM   #1
Tarakin
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Post "Story Discussion March 2, 2009 "The Flowering"

Hi!

Thanks for looking at my story The Flowering.

I don't want to tell you too much in advance, so I'll only say that all of my short stories evolve around a small circle of persons in an invented coastal town. The story should be able to stand alone without the reader knowing this context of course.

I hope you like it!
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Old 03-02-2009, 11:12 AM   #2
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The notes section

I'm looking for everything that might help me improve my skills, the following points are just some of my questions.

* flow
* characterization
* believability
* Flowering-metaphor
* weakest spots
* strongest spots
* suggestions towards clarity
* Cathegorie (I put it in as "First Time")
* is it a story for both male and female readers?
* all other things

Thanks in advance for reading my story and all the help I hope to receive!
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Old 03-02-2009, 01:07 PM   #3
christabelll
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The flowering :)

Tarakin -
Knowing that english is not your native language I am impressed. This was well written - and dare I say it - stimulating

There were a couple of area's that were a bit awkward: I feel the sentences could have been rephrased, punctuated differently. I will try to give you examples below.

I was a little confused in the scene where they decided to ride - mainly that you called names that had not been used before - meaning they had not been introduced - I had to reread to understand that

I liked the juxtaposition between the brothers and Brett and their treatment of Ashley. However, I would have like to have read more of how, they, knowing she was a virigin and that inexperienced, would have taken more time to stimulate her, educate her, whatever LOL.... My opinion anyway.

You have set it up for a sequel - it will be interesting to see what you play it towards. If you write a sequel that is.


I also see that you enjoy using exclamation points. "!". While I don't mind them as it is more realistic as to tone and depth in the character, A few might have problems with it. I would recommend going through and removing a few of them, which will require a little restructuring, but should work toward setting mood without being it being shouted at the reader.

So to some examples:

As if there was anything to be shown off with a girl as plain as she was!
This is an opportunity for being sardonic. the exclamation point takes it from dry reflection to overloaded self opinion. There are several opportunities to be dry and ascerbic about her reactions

It is possible that you can break up the long paragraphs a little more. It makes for easier reading on line. Personally I don't mind - but let me show here.
Brett took the unlabeled jug again, clapped Ashley's shoulder, and smiled at her. But she could barely see him through the tears in her eyes. Quickly she blinked them away and smiled back at the gang leader. Her throat felt rough, so she didn't dare to say anything, and luckily it wasn't necessary. Brett smiled at her once more, passed the bottle toward one of his gang(,). (then)He turned back toward Freddy and resumed talking about the speed of the Harley. Freddy was happy to be the center of attention again and readily bragged some more. (started to brag even more) paragraph end

(start new paragraph)Ashley took a deep breath,( and tried to gulp)gulping the fire {or and gulped the fire away} in her throat away. Just as she thought she would be able to breathe freely again, she was handed the bottle once more. Apparently it had completed its round through the pack already and it was her turn again. Or was it a fresh bottle? It still had roughly the same level as when she had gotten rid of it. Ashley sighed inwardly, but feeling everyone watching her she closed her eyes and took another sip. This time she could stomach it a bit better. You can get used to anything in time, she thought, quickly getting rid of the (stuff) bottle by passing it on. (Even) After just three sips she felt a bit lightheaded. Devilish stuff! The exclamation works here
However, her relief (suddenly) turned to shock as she listened to what the leader had to say. I would take out suddenly personally

Paul answered something unprintable (perhaps it should say unrepeatable?)and Ashley's averted face turned an even brighter shade of red, which made Brett laugh even louder. (paragraph deleted) Brett was (almost) out of breath when he finally told Ashley that she wouldn't have to look at anyone's ass anymore.
I would connect this sentence to the next paragraph and delete almost.

Ashley felt her heart dropping into her stomach. She had always been shy about how small her breasts were. She had been told they would still grow, because she was only eighteen, but she wished they would hurry it up. Even more shameful, to Ashley, was that whatever her breasts lacked in size, her nipples more than made up for! (.) Whenever she remembered the sight of Freddy's private parts, her nipples grew embarrassingly long. They could reach at least half an inch, if not more!
(.) I think you can safely remove these and still have it convey her emotional state.


Okay I could do this to the entire story - -


* flow - very nice - a little choppy in a couple of places but very good.
* characterization - Ashley could be a litle more 'innocently coy'. Brett a little more brash. Fred a little more wheedling spoilt rich boy.
* believability - Pretty good - I wasn't thrown out of the story (until "they broke from their leader" It would take more than taking a virgin on a Picnic table to make them break away - even if he had done this before with them, I don't think they would suddenly decide it was too much for their sensibilities right there. There would have been more tension, more reluctance to participate etc... that can be fleshed out a bit more to make it more believable.
* Flowering-metaphor - ah honey - I though the little touches of the seedling were a sweet touch - it softened what would otherwise be just this side of rape.
* weakest spots - The transition Between Brett and the brothers taking over.
* strongest spots - For the most part this was a strong story.
* suggestions towards clarity - clean up the exclamations - perhaps breaking up a few of the paragraphs would make this a shiner.
* Cathegorie (I put it in as "First Time") Perfect for First Time - bordering on Non Consent.
* is it a story for both male and female readers? Yes actually I think it is. I think if you widen the differences between your male characters you would be well served.
* all other things - I really liked it. Surprised myself liking it You write very well and personally it makes me want to see what else you have come up with.


I hope this helps. I enjoyed reading it!
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Old 03-02-2009, 02:59 PM   #4
Penelope Street
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Hi Tarakin,

I couldn't get in touch with Ashley enough to enjoy this one. What's she doing at this biker event anyway? Why doesn't she ask Freddy to leave at once? Why doesn't she have a helmet? I'm not objecting to her attending the festival, but there are several ways to answer all of these questions. My answer is that she really cares about Freddy.

Later, we learn she ogled him once and is excited by her memories, so even though we know little of Freddy's appearance other than he's cute, it seems Ashely is attracted to him both physically and emotionally. I think Freddy's a dolt and wouldn't blame her one bit if she decided to just dump him- but I never quite get that she feels that way, and this was an important stumbling block for me.

So even if she is intoxicated and not too bright and her even less bright boyfriend has essentially abandoned her in favor of showing off a motorcycle and she's on the way to realizing she's just not into him after all, I still just can't believe her abrupt change from "I'm waiting for marriage" to "I'll have unprotected roadside sex with three strangers".

I noticed the little steps along the way that eased her transition a bit, but for me it was still just so sudden I couldn't see it being anything other than traumatizing for her, even though she wasn't actually forced. She sure seems lucid enough after the sexual encounter, so I don't believe she's all that drunk anyway. I kind of expected she'd ride off into the sunset with Brett, so when that definitiely didn't happen it was a pleasant surprise.

Not that bikers aren't attractive- they certainly can be, though it was a little weird that these three had helmets, since riding without one is part of their rebel appeal. I loved that you made Ashley vulnerable in terms of having issues with her appearance. If she'd been a wallflower at party after party and not had a longtime boyfriend who'd actually made some advances, I'd have been willing to believe her transformation so much more and might even have enjoyed it.

Somewhere, I got the impression that English isn't your first language? If so, I'd never have guessed; your command of the language is better than most native speakers. The main issues I noticed with word usage, and it's on the minor side, was the use of phrases like "was standing" instead of simply "stood". The latter always seems so much more active, but maybe that's just me.

A writerly issue was the point of view wavering just a little here and there. This is Ashley's story- but we're in just about every other character's head, if only for a moment, like this one: The brothers were entranced by Ashley's innocence and knew their leader too well.

Point of view shifts can be ever so subtle, yet still distracting, like the bold bit at the end of this sentence: "You are beautiful, Ashley," he whispered in her ear, and it was sincere. This last example, though only three seemingly inoffensive words, could be particularly jarring since the reader is meant to identify with Ashley and should decide, like Ashley would, if the compliment is sincere.

My last minor quibble- and it's really minor- is that a couple places you chose to paraphrase instead of use explicit dialogue. I enjoyed your character's words and felt a little cheated when you skipped a few lines.

If I hadn't noticed the category (and I think it's the proper category) before I started reading, I might have been afraid for Ashley, which could have been both good and bad considering how the story turns out. Even if I didn't really get into Ashely, I'm happy things didn't turn ugly for her. I did enjoy the clever little twist at the end that played back on a seemingly unimportant bit of information about Ashley's brother; it added a professional touch to a well-written tale.

Thanks for sharing your story with us!

Take Care,
Penny
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Old 03-03-2009, 02:32 AM   #5
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Yay! A two page story.

Not much to add to the previous comments, except that I didn't buy the seedling reference until about the fourth time it showed up. If there had been more of that kind of language - metaphors and similes - it wouldn't have been so out of place.

I would agree that her transformation from reluctant prude to slut was not exactly believable. Perhaps her curiosity could have been more apparent at the beginning of the story. The POV issue was also a bit distracting at times. I think you either need to go with completely limited or total omni, since slipping in the accidental omni references totally kills the mood created by Ashley's limited POV.

As an ex-motorcycle rider, I had a hard time with the image of her riding facing the driver. I think I would have put her on the front facing forward and ridden behind her, showing her how to drive the thing and copping an accidental feel now and then. But the drunk part would have made that unbelievable. In fact, judging by the amount of alcohol she consumed, she should have been puking before the guys even got her clothes off.

There were many places that seemed as though they could have been edited for brevity. For example, when the guy is watering the bushes, and then turns around, it takes a whole paragraph for that to happen, when in real life it would have been a few seconds. But I'm a big fan of brevity, so it's probably a subjective call.

A couple of awkward passages:

"Massive speakers on top of a bike" brought to mind an unbelievable image. I'm a working musician, so practical issues like balancing a massive speaker without a speaker stand interest me. I've done it, but they usually fall down, sometimes right on top of the dancers. Oops!

"Only his whiteteethed grin was a sharp contrast to all the black, shiny, even predatory, and directed at her." I'm sure an editor could fix that. Perhaps there's a word missing?

I did like the twist at the end. By that time I had surrendered to the idea that it was just a straight stroke story, so it was a nice surprise.
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:21 PM   #6
Tarakin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by christabelll View Post
Tarakin -
Knowing that english is not your native language I am impressed. This was well written - and dare I say it - stimulating
Thanks a lot!

Quote:
Originally Posted by christabelll View Post
There were a couple of area's that were a bit awkward: I feel the sentences could have been rephrased, punctuated differently. I will try to give you examples below.
The German way of speaking sneaks in occasionally

Quote:
Originally Posted by christabelll View Post
I was a little confused in the scene where they decided to ride - mainly that you called names that had not been used before - meaning they had not been introduced - I had to reread to understand that
Okay, I'll have to fix that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by christabelll View Post
I liked the juxtaposition between the brothers and Brett and their treatment of Ashley. However, I would have like to have read more of how, they, knowing she was a virigin and that inexperienced, would have taken more time to stimulate her, educate her, whatever LOL.... My opinion anyway.
I got an email comment by another reader pointing in the same direction. I didn't want the readers to lose their impression of Brett, so they'd compare him and the brothers. Maybe I should expand the role of the good guys a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by christabelll View Post
You have set it up for a sequel - it will be interesting to see what you play it towards. If you write a sequel that is.
My stories roll toward the mentioned wedding. In The Wedding Dress the bride is at the center, some wedding guests are featured in Dressing Appropriately and so on. My real life is eating much time, though, so it may take a while before I continue the storyline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by christabelll View Post

I also see that you enjoy using exclamation points. "!". While I don't mind them as it is more realistic as to tone and depth in the character, A few might have problems with it. I would recommend going through and removing a few of them, which will require a little restructuring, but should work toward setting mood without being it being shouted at the reader. (...)


Okay I could do this to the entire story - -
Now that's one of those typical German things I never noticed before. Here we write the sardonic comments and some of the other examples (though not all) with exclamation points usually. I have to dive into that matter deeper.

Quote:
Originally Posted by christabelll View Post

* flow - very nice - a little choppy in a couple of places but very good.
* characterization - Ashley could be a litle more 'innocently coy'. Brett a little more brash. Fred a little more wheedling spoilt rich boy.
I had feared any more in those directions would be cliché...

Quote:
Originally Posted by christabelll View Post
* believability - Pretty good - I wasn't thrown out of the story (until "they broke from their leader" It would take more than taking a virgin on a Picnic table to make them break away - even if he had done this before with them, I don't think they would suddenly decide it was too much for their sensibilities right there. There would have been more tension, more reluctance to participate etc... that can be fleshed out a bit more to make it more believable.
Point taken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by christabelll View Post
* Flowering-metaphor - ah honey - I though the little touches of the seedling were a sweet touch - it softened what would otherwise be just this side of rape.
I bugged my editor with germination-questions to get the right words in it. The German double-meanings work only so far in English I've learned And I tried to write a stimulating and literal work. I still have lots of work to do to achieve the latter part, I know. Thanks for your help in this!

Quote:
Originally Posted by christabelll View Post
* weakest spots - The transition Between Brett and the brothers taking over.
* strongest spots - For the most part this was a strong story.
* suggestions towards clarity - clean up the exclamations - perhaps breaking up a few of the paragraphs would make this a shiner.
* Cathegorie (I put it in as "First Time") Perfect for First Time - bordering on Non Consent.
* is it a story for both male and female readers? Yes actually I think it is. I think if you widen the differences between your male characters you would be well served.
Thank you

Quote:
Originally Posted by christabelll View Post
* all other things - I really liked it. Surprised myself liking it You write very well and personally it makes me want to see what else you have come up with.
I've hid some advertising in my comments

Quote:
Originally Posted by christabelll View Post


I hope this helps. I enjoyed reading it!
Thanks a lot, it really helps me to improve.
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:58 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope Street View Post
Hi Tarakin,

I couldn't get in touch with Ashley enough to enjoy this one. What's she doing at this biker event anyway? Why doesn't she ask Freddy to leave at once? Why doesn't she have a helmet? I'm not objecting to her attending the festival, but there are several ways to answer all of these questions. My answer is that she really cares about Freddy.
Yes, she cares about him, but more in the sense that at last someone is interested in her despite her looks (well, that and what she had seen in the shower). She wants to be no spoilsport for Freddy, thus plays with his intends, giving in to his blue eyes. That was what I wanted to say at least, but I see I have to give her motives more words so she (and her later turn) is more believable.

The helmet is a flaw of mine. At my first writing of the story she had a helmet, but it was disrupting the flaw when she always put it off and on again and so on. So she ended without a helmet, but obviously it's a logical mistake I made.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope Street View Post

Later, we learn she ogled him once and is excited by her memories, so even though we know little of Freddy's appearance other than he's cute, it seems Ashely is attracted to him both physically and emotionally. I think Freddy's a dolt and wouldn't blame her one bit if she decided to just dump him- but I never quite get that she feels that way, and this was an important stumbling block for me.
Freddy is meant to be a dolt, I succeed in this I see. Physically I've pictured him as average, but Ashley has no experience to judge this and is thus impressed with the brothers later on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope Street View Post
So even if she is intoxicated and not too bright and her even less bright boyfriend has essentially abandoned her in favor of showing off a motorcycle and she's on the way to realizing she's just not into him after all, I still just can't believe her abrupt change from "I'm waiting for marriage" to "I'll have unprotected roadside sex with three strangers".
I see that I need to put more thoughts into her turn. Thanks for the advice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope Street View Post
I noticed the little steps along the way that eased her transition a bit, but for me it was still just so sudden I couldn't see it being anything other than traumatizing for her, even though she wasn't actually forced. She sure seems lucid enough after the sexual encounter, so I don't believe she's all that drunk anyway. I kind of expected she'd ride off into the sunset with Brett, so when that definitiely didn't happen it was a pleasant surprise.
I can't let the bad guy win! Ashley is still "growing" (to stay inside the metaphor) and will meet Brett again when I'll find time for more writing. Besides, I like unexpected yet logical turn of events.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope Street View Post
Not that bikers aren't attractive- they certainly can be, though it was a little weird that these three had helmets, since riding without one is part of their rebel appeal.
Argh, here Germany is different. Our bikers may want to be rebels, but they all wear helmets. I should have researched more. If they don't do that in the US, at least the missing helmet of Ashley from above is easily explained...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope Street View Post
I loved that you made Ashley vulnerable in terms of having issues with her appearance. If she'd been a wallflower at party after party and not had a longtime boyfriend who'd actually made some advances, I'd have been willing to believe her transformation so much more and might even have enjoyed it.
That was my goal, but I see that I'll have to get that more clear.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope Street View Post

Somewhere, I got the impression that English isn't your first language? If so, I'd never have guessed; your command of the language is better than most native speakers. The main issues I noticed with word usage, and it's on the minor side, was the use of phrases like "was standing" instead of simply "stood". The latter always seems so much more active, but maybe that's just me.
I'm German, yes, and live in Germany. It's all school- and book-English for me. My editor did a great work in helping me, and I'd like to thank her for her patience. What you read on this thread is my unedited English, so you can guess her workload.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope Street View Post

A writerly issue was the point of view wavering just a little here and there. This is Ashley's story- but we're in just about every other character's head, if only for a moment, like this one: The brothers were entranced by Ashley's innocence and knew their leader too well.

Point of view shifts can be ever so subtle, yet still distracting, like the bold bit at the end of this sentence: "You are beautiful, Ashley," he whispered in her ear, and it was sincere. This last example, though only three seemingly inoffensive words, could be particularly jarring since the reader is meant to identify with Ashley and should decide, like Ashley would, if the compliment is sincere.
That's a blatant mistake of mine. It should have been only Ashley's POV, I simply didn't notice my headhopping there. And I reread the tale time and again...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope Street View Post

My last minor quibble- and it's really minor- is that a couple places you chose to paraphrase instead of use explicit dialogue. I enjoyed your character's words and felt a little cheated when you skipped a few lines.
Okay, and thanks for the hidden compliment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope Street View Post

If I hadn't noticed the category (and I think it's the proper category) before I started reading, I might have been afraid for Ashley, which could have been both good and bad considering how the story turns out. Even if I didn't really get into Ashely, I'm happy things didn't turn ugly for her.
Good! I wanted to reader to be on Ashley's side, that's why I played with the biker clichés. On the other hand I wanted to show that there are good bikers also. I had to keep the sensitive audience in the story until the brothers took charge so they saw the good ending also.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penelope Street View Post
I did enjoy the clever little twist at the end that played back on a seemingly unimportant bit of information about Ashley's brother; it added a professional touch to a well-written tale.
Thanks. The grand scheme looms in the behind and helps me with this. My usual worry is to keep all those informations out that are unimportant for the current story.
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Thanks for sharing your story with us!

Take Care,
Penny
Thanks for your comments, they are very helpful
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Old 03-03-2009, 02:20 PM   #8
Tarakin
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Yay! A two page story.

Not much to add to the previous comments, except that I didn't buy the seedling reference until about the fourth time it showed up. If there had been more of that kind of language - metaphors and similes - it wouldn't have been so out of place.
He, my editor always urges me to keep all metaphors and similes out of my stories. Now I have more reasons when I argue this point with her
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeZire View Post

I would agree that her transformation from reluctant prude to slut was not exactly believable. Perhaps her curiosity could have been more apparent at the beginning of the story. The POV issue was also a bit distracting at times. I think you either need to go with completely limited or total omni, since slipping in the accidental omni references totally kills the mood created by Ashley's limited POV.
Yes, I'll work on both issues. The omnis were stupid mistakes I should have seen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeZire View Post

As an ex-motorcycle rider, I had a hard time with the image of her riding facing the driver. I think I would have put her on the front facing forward and ridden behind her, showing her how to drive the thing and copping an accidental feel now and then. But the drunk part would have made that unbelievable. In fact, judging by the amount of alcohol she consumed, she should have been puking before the guys even got her clothes off.
It was just a sip now and then if you'd ask Ashley. I hope she was foggy minded but not puking. I'll recheck the amounts again. The backward-sitting I've seen on pics, though not on a Harley. Is it impossible to drive this way?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeZire View Post

There were many places that seemed as though they could have been edited for brevity. For example, when the guy is watering the bushes, and then turns around, it takes a whole paragraph for that to happen, when in real life it would have been a few seconds. But I'm a big fan of brevity, so it's probably a subjective call.
Sometimes time just seems to stand still, and I tried to achieve this feel with a long paragraph for a short action. There's a German word for this technique, but my dictionary translates it as "creep" and I'm not sure if this is the correct terminus technicus for it...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeZire View Post

A couple of awkward passages:

"Massive speakers on top of a bike" brought to mind an unbelievable image. I'm a working musician, so practical issues like balancing a massive speaker without a speaker stand interest me. I've done it, but they usually fall down, sometimes right on top of the dancers. Oops!
Outch. I have to fix this, Ashley should reach the second paragraph alive or it really is a very short story.
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Originally Posted by DeeZire View Post

"Only his whiteteethed grin was a sharp contrast to all the black, shiny, even predatory, and directed at her." I'm sure an editor could fix that. Perhaps there's a word missing?
This sentence has been edited five times (for the black-and-white contrast), and it still has a mistake in it... thanks for pointing it out.
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I did like the twist at the end. By that time I had surrendered to the idea that it was just a straight stroke story, so it was a nice surprise.
Glad that worked out.

Thank you for reading my story and for your help, I really appreciate it
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Old 03-03-2009, 02:33 PM   #9
christabelll
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"Only his whiteteethed grin was a sharp contrast to all the black, shiny, even predatory, and directed at her." I'm sure an editor could fix that. Perhaps there's a word missing?


I too noticed this sentence and then forgot it as I was writing ---- if I may ???

Only his white-toothed grin was a sharp contrast to all that black. Shiny, even predatory, it was directed at her.

Or

Only his white-toothed grin provided a sharp contrast to all the predatory shiny black and it was directed at her.

Teethed - reminds way to much of a baby breaking through his gums


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Old 03-03-2009, 05:22 PM   #10
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Hi Tarakin,

Let me join in with the rest to compliment you on your use of the English language. I have a good friend whose native tongue is German and she has shared with me the many difficulties of writing in a foreign language. So, high fives and good job!

My comments are also much the same as the other readers but I’ll try to add a few of my own.

Believability was the major stumbling block for me in this otherwise good story. I’m not a Harley rider but, as you can see by my avatar, I’m familiar with bikes and the bike culture. With Harleys, it not about speed, so I don’t buy the wolves asking how fast Freddy’s bike goes – unless they’re playing a joke on him because of his naiveté. More likely they would notice some kind of after-market adjustment he’d made to his bike. Hog owners take a lot of pride in customizing their bikes. Noise is also a big factor. They like their bikes to be loud.

Watch for repetition. I caught a few instances:

“Ashley got off of the back of the Harley and took a step back…”

“Don't you want to show us what this hog can really do?” (You have this sentence, with slight variations, repeated three times.)

She gulped down another mouthful then shook her head to clear her thoughts. She was finding it increasingly difficult to think clearly. (I’d find a different word for one of these).

The middle of this story, and your description of the sexual encounter, work well. The beginning and the end were my least favorite parts. The opening sentence is generic and didn’t catch my attention. The end is not bad, per se, but comes across as way to convenient. I need a few breadcrumbs dropped along the way to make the last passage believable. Maybe some of the bike gang could slip in a joke about what Brett is doing later that day? Something as simple as that would help with credibility. Also, Ashley’s reaction to the news seems over the top. Would she, especially given all that she’s processing at that moment, leap to her feet and decide to go rescue someone she has no connection to? I don’t buy it.

And one last nitpick.

She hadn’t seen one before, of course; she had led a very sheltered life, so far.

You don’t have to tell me she’s led a sheltered life, this is obvious from her thoughts and behaviour. There are other spots where you refer to Ashley as “the sheltered girl” and you really don’t need to do this, it feels like overkill. Just knowing she’s eighteen, at a party with her boyfriend and all she wants to do is go home and study is more than enough to tell me what kind of girl Ashley is.

You have a good foundation, it just needs some tweaking. Great job and thanks for sharing!
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Old 03-03-2009, 07:43 PM   #11
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He, my editor always urges me to keep all metaphors and similes out of my stories. Now I have more reasons when I argue this point with her
I could see that sort of attitude in the context of writing for a newspaper, but in fiction, it's the metaphors and similes that bring the prose to life - for me anyway.
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Old 03-03-2009, 08:58 PM   #12
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Believability was the major stumbling block for me in this otherwise good story. I’m not a Harley rider but, as you can see by my avatar, I’m familiar with bikes and the bike culture. With Harleys, it not about speed, so I don’t buy the wolves asking how fast Freddy’s bike goes – unless they’re playing a joke on him because of his naiveté. More likely they would notice some kind of after-market adjustment he’d made to his bike. Hog owners take a lot of pride in customizing their bikes. Noise is also a big factor. They like their bikes to be loud.
I'm not part of any biker culture, so I totally missed this apparent inconsistency, but I think the story still works because their goal is really to lose Freddy- I never thought they really cared how fast his bike was. I don't even see it to be a joke, but rather a clever ploy.

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As an ex-motorcycle rider, I had a hard time with the image of her riding facing the driver. I think I would have put her on the front facing forward and ridden behind her, showing her how to drive the thing and copping an accidental feel now and then.
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I'll recheck the amounts again. The backward-sitting I've seen on pics, though not on a Harley. Is it impossible to drive this way?
Doesn't Brett ride a foreign model? I only remember because it struck me as maybe being an instance of lazy writing, but not a major issue; but if this backward-sitting thing is possible on some bikes and not others, then maybe it's more important that I imagined?

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Originally Posted by Keroin
The end is not bad, per se, but comes across as way too convenient.
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Originally Posted by Christabell
I wasn't thrown out of the story until "they broke from their leader"
To me, the entire summary conclusion after revealing the wedding twist feels a little rushed. This is an example where exposition really didn't work for me, because when I read about the brothers breaking with their leader, my first thought was, "Please, what makes virgin number eight so different from the first seven?" Had I seen the brothers discuss the issue, I might have been more willing to believe it. I also got the impression this was basically a stroke story, so even if it could be better, I didn't think the "wrap it up and put a bow tie on it" ending is that big of a deal.

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The opening sentence is generic and didn’t catch my attention.
True, the opening sentence is a little bland and I think a little less history would have been ok too, but I liked opening premise: show the reader a character with a problem. I knew Ashley didn't want to be at the party and I understood why, which helped me jump right into the story with her.
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Old 03-04-2009, 09:10 PM   #13
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I think First Time is a clever choice of category for this.

It had me second guessing a lot what was going to happen next. My guess was the bikers would sneak her off somewhere and rape her, but then it would be in the non-consent cat, so I kept wondering how the bikers would actually turn out. I was wondering if Brett would turn out to be a badboy rogue type.

I like how you kind of avoided the direct stereotypes and ended up with characters that were a little 'muddy'. Brett was a predator, but she wasn't exactly unwilling. The other bikers got in on the act, but didn't seem quite so bad afterwards. I liked that ambiguity.

I thought the seedling reference was overdone at four mentions. I spotted it at the first mention and a second was enough to reinforce it. Four's overkill

The other thing that jarred was 'tunnel of love'. It's a pet peeve of mine. Whenever I see that crop up in a descriptive passage it just feels... sort of tacky. It stood out like a sore thumb compared to the other well-written prose. That's just a pet hate of mine though, might be fine for other people.
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Old 03-04-2009, 09:12 PM   #14
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Old 03-05-2009, 11:20 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by christabelll View Post
"Only his whiteteethed grin was a sharp contrast to all the black, shiny, even predatory, and directed at her." I'm sure an editor could fix that. Perhaps there's a word missing?


I too noticed this sentence and then forgot it as I was writing ---- if I may ???

Only his white-toothed grin was a sharp contrast to all that black. Shiny, even predatory, it was directed at her.

Or

Only his white-toothed grin provided a sharp contrast to all the predatory shiny black and it was directed at her.

Teethed - reminds way to much of a baby breaking through his gums


Thanks for the help! I like the first correction, the three adjectives behind each other are a bit overdone in the second version (though still better than my own try ).

Btw, I'd never have guessed that one tooth would be the correct word in English related to grinning!
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Old 03-05-2009, 11:37 AM   #16
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Hi Tarakin,

Let me join in with the rest to compliment you on your use of the English language. I have a good friend whose native tongue is German and she has shared with me the many difficulties of writing in a foreign language. So, high fives and good job!
Thanks, I'll forward this to my editor, its really her praise.
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My comments are also much the same as the other readers but I’ll try to add a few of my own.

Believability was the major stumbling block for me in this otherwise good story. I’m not a Harley rider but, as you can see by my avatar, I’m familiar with bikes and the bike culture. With Harleys, it not about speed, so I don’t buy the wolves asking how fast Freddy’s bike goes – unless they’re playing a joke on him because of his naiveté. More likely they would notice some kind of after-market adjustment he’d made to his bike. Hog owners take a lot of pride in customizing their bikes. Noise is also a big factor. They like their bikes to be loud.
They were fooling Freddy into driving away from Brett, so he could have some time with Ashley alone. But I'll gladly add more noise for credibility.
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Watch for repetition. I caught a few instances:

“Ashley got off of the back of the Harley and took a step back…”

“Don't you want to show us what this hog can really do?” (You have this sentence, with slight variations, repeated three times.)

She gulped down another mouthful then shook her head to clear her thoughts. She was finding it increasingly difficult to think clearly. (I’d find a different word for one of these).
I wonder how I could have missed that... You are right, of course.
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The middle of this story, and your description of the sexual encounter, work well. The beginning and the end were my least favorite parts. The opening sentence is generic and didn’t catch my attention.
The opening paragraph is supposed to set the scene, but maybe I could switch the sentences. I do want to say she feels out of place there.
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Originally Posted by Keroin View Post
The end is not bad, per se, but comes across as way to convenient. I need a few breadcrumbs dropped along the way to make the last passage believable. Maybe some of the bike gang could slip in a joke about what Brett is doing later that day? Something as simple as that would help with credibility. Also, Ashley’s reaction to the news seems over the top. Would she, especially given all that she’s processing at that moment, leap to her feet and decide to go rescue someone she has no connection to? I don’t buy it.
Points taken. A joke, or maybe a sardonic remark, also fits into the expansion of the brother's part to make their turn more believable. Ashley's connection to Veronica is by her brother, but I think I can deepen it a bit more.
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And one last nitpick.

She hadn’t seen one before, of course; she had led a very sheltered life, so far.

You don’t have to tell me she’s led a sheltered life, this is obvious from her thoughts and behaviour. There are other spots where you refer to Ashley as “the sheltered girl” and you really don’t need to do this, it feels like overkill. Just knowing she’s eighteen, at a party with her boyfriend and all she wants to do is go home and study is more than enough to tell me what kind of girl Ashley is.
An age old problem. If I do give to few hints or informations, I'll lose some readers, if I give too much, I'll have overkill. Stating something that should be obvious at this place is okay I think.
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You have a good foundation, it just needs some tweaking. Great job and thanks for sharing!
Thank you for reading and critizising, your remarks are very helpful.
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Old 03-05-2009, 11:39 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by DeeZire View Post
I could see that sort of attitude in the context of writing for a newspaper, but in fiction, it's the metaphors and similes that bring the prose to life - for me anyway.
Fiction is all about the words being turned into pictures, and metaphors and similes are the best ways to create those I think.
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Old 03-05-2009, 11:57 AM   #18
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I'm not part of any biker culture, so I totally missed this apparent inconsistency, but I think the story still works because their goal is really to lose Freddy- I never thought they really cared how fast his bike was. I don't even see it to be a joke, but rather a clever ploy.
Yes, it was suppossed to be a ploy, and Freddy fell for it head over heels.
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Doesn't Brett ride a foreign model? I only remember because it struck me as maybe being an instance of lazy writing, but not a major issue; but if this backward-sitting thing is possible on some bikes and not others, then maybe it's more important that I imagined?
I confess that I didn't recognize the bike on the picture, so 'foreign' was a way to avoid that issue - unsuccessfully it seems.
The pic in this articel is not the one I had in mind, but shows that riding a Suzuki backwards is possible.
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To me, the entire summary conclusion after revealing the wedding twist feels a little rushed. This is an example where exposition really didn't work for me, because when I read about the brothers breaking with their leader, my first thought was, "Please, what makes virgin number eight so different from the first seven?" Had I seen the brothers discuss the issue, I might have been more willing to believe it.
Point taken. The brothers will definitly get more room.
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I also got the impression this was basically a stroke story, so even if it could be better, I didn't think the "wrap it up and put a bow tie on it" ending is that big of a deal.
My ambitions are a bit more than stroke, but I also wanted to get more 'guests' to the wedding-sequel.
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Originally Posted by Penelope Street View Post
True, the opening sentence is a little bland and I think a little less history would have been ok too, but I liked opening premise: show the reader a character with a problem. I knew Ashley didn't want to be at the party and I understood why, which helped me jump right into the story with her.
Thanks. Yet again your comments are very helpful!
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:13 PM   #19
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I think First Time is a clever choice of category for this.

It had me second guessing a lot what was going to happen next. My guess was the bikers would sneak her off somewhere and rape her, but then it would be in the non-consent cat, so I kept wondering how the bikers would actually turn out. I was wondering if Brett would turn out to be a badboy rogue type.
I had feared that people would think 'rape' after the first paragraph if I'd put it into the noncon-cat, so I'd lose the readership I wanted to keep after the first sentences and dissapoint the rape-lovers in the end. Well, I don't care much about the rape lovers, so that's no major point I wondered about the cat for Ashley is reluctant in the beginning.
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I like how you kind of avoided the direct stereotypes and ended up with characters that were a little 'muddy'. Brett was a predator, but she wasn't exactly unwilling. The other bikers got in on the act, but didn't seem quite so bad afterwards. I liked that ambiguity.
Thanks. I like to write outside of the cliché. We have far too many perfect-looking women and bad bikers on Lit already.
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I thought the seedling reference was overdone at four mentions. I spotted it at the first mention and a second was enough to reinforce it. Four's overkill
And I'm still sure too many people haven't noticed it at all Btw, that was the hardest part in the writing, the German metaphors for germinating plants and growing humans are very different from the English ones.
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Originally Posted by manyeyedhydra View Post
The other thing that jarred was 'tunnel of love'. It's a pet peeve of mine. Whenever I see that crop up in a descriptive passage it just feels... sort of tacky. It stood out like a sore thumb compared to the other well-written prose. That's just a pet hate of mine though, might be fine for other people.
I later got an email on my story that explains the origins of 'tunnel of love' as oldstyle 70ies US-porn. Again I have learned something. One of the joys of foreign cultural background

Thanks for reading, commenting and thus helping me!
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Old 03-05-2009, 12:43 PM   #20
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I really did enjoy reading this story and have both positive and negative things to say.
This I like most, I learn with the bad things and get my ego stroked with the good parts.
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I did sort of get the flower metaphor but it wasn't really that clear. Of course it was a catchy title and didn't effect the actual story at all.
It was suppossed to support the theme and anticipate the end of the story to a degree...
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I don't know much about bikes and bikers but when he asked her to sit facing him on the bike I thought that part was way too obvious and she couldn't be that naive to believe it. She seemed so quiet and innocent and just a little dumb. Maybe that's the way you meant it to be but by the end she just seemed clueless.
She feared that making an issue out of it would fall back on Freddy. And yes, she's not that smart
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I did find the part about her wanting to go to the wedding and warn the bride just a little over the top. It did distract from the story and then since you just ended it I was confused.
I had the sequel in mind already, which isn't that good I see, but I also wanted to show that Ashley had learned something out of her experience with Brett on the one hand and the brothers on the other.
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Now the good parts. It was well written and since English isn't your first language I'm very impressed.
The praise will be forwarded to my editor
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The sex was hot and definitely suited to the category.
Thanks a lot!
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I haven't read any of your other stories yet but plan to.
One of the highest compliments there is. Thank you very much, for this, for reading my story and for the helpful comments!
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Old 03-07-2009, 09:19 PM   #21
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notes

hi tarakin, welcome to the sdc. thank you for contributing a story.

it does have a nice flow as sexual encounter; it's well thought out.

i want to concentrate on diction; manyheaded mentioned 'tunnel of love.' that and other terms are rather grating. beyond that, you have to look at consistency. we have 'tunnel of love,' 'vagina,' 'pussy, 'femininity.' do you aim for coy faux sweetness [see below], or raunch (pussy), or anatomy book (vagina), or romance novel talk (femininity)?

example of wild mixing: her unsated pussy adjusted to the thicker meat of Paul's manhood.


sometimes the sweetness has a 'put on' [tongue in cheek, even satiric] quality, like the famous novel, Candy. _the dear girl's sweet bud was dripping honey from her charming treasure trove._ but that is perilously close to romance novel talk, if it takes itself seriously. "femininity" is just too coy outside the romance novel that tries to avoid sexy terms. so make up your mind. and just as i'd suggest avoiding the romance-novel talk, similarly avoid the impossibly literary terms, like 'unsated pussy.' (ease up on the thesaurus, man!).

so my advice is to decide [on how the narrator is going to talk; who is he?], and have a native speaker ratify your choice. if your current editor doesn't do this, have another checker.

another issue in porn or erotica, if you aspire to be better, is adjectives; the trite ones. ivory thighs, rosy nipples, secret depths. change, or even better, prune; the writing is adjective heavy.

you've set yourself a challenging goal, "my flower opened at a biker gangbang.': //Ashley could not comprehend what had happened to her and shivered, like a newborn flower after winter's last cold rain.// i think you could pull it off; you have authorly talent and an excellent command of english; attend a bit more to your choice of words, and get native speaker assists over and above what you've used to date.


[excerpt discussed]


Ashley's shapely legs dangled in the air, but she was beyond caring now. The bikers could see her most intimate parts perfectly, something no man had ever seen before. The entrance to her vagina was spread open, the tunnel of love behind it barely protected by the fragile velvet of her hymen, which proved her virginity. As another moan escaped Ashley's full, red lips, the bikers saw a trickle of her honey escape the secret depths of her vagina and run down the exposed flesh of her ivory thighs. Ashley's long nipples were aching, her longing pussy at the same time on fire and dripping wet. The young girl had never ever dreamed of anything like what was happening to her now.

Brett stepped between Ashley's open legs. She shuddered and a soft whimper escaped her throat. The leader of the Wolfpack took his cock in his hands and aimed it at Ashley's tunnel of love, then entered her without any fuss. The maidenly barrier that Ashley had guarded so faithfully for so many years gave way without any resistance at all. Ashley gasped when it was torn, but was unable to put her whirling thoughts into coherent words. Brett took her oversensitive nipples in his rough hands and pulled at them while he went deep into her sweet pussy. He laughed when Ashley gasped once more, then pulled back and rammed his member in again and again. It took him just four strokes inside of his quivering prey, and then he shot his load into her, grinding his teeth in unveiled triumph. He had lasted just a few seconds.

"She's yours!" Brett turned to his wolves, grinning evilly and removing his already deflated cock out of Ashley's feminine treasure. There was a bit of blood on his cock, which he rubbed away with her panties. "Virgin number eight!" Brett mumbled to himself, his triumph barely concealed, as he started to redress.

"I've got to go, can't be late to my own wedding," he said to the bikers, ignoring his female prey.

Ashley could not comprehend what had happened to her and shivered, like a newborn flower after winter's last cold rain. The young woman opened her mouth, but no words emerged. Paul shook his head in disgust at his leader then stepped between Ashley's legs. She tried to clamp her knees together, but to her surprise Paul, the same Paul that had stroked his cock in plain sight before her, just bent over and kissed her cheeks, gently brushing her tears away.

"You are beautiful, Ashley," he whispered in her ear, and it was sincere. Ashley relaxed a bit again, and was kissed once more. Jimmy stepped to her side now, giving her rosy nipple a lick. She shuddered. A bike was starting in the distance, disturbing the serene quietness with its roar.

"It can be much nicer, Ashley," Paul said, regret in his voice.

"Brett is gone now," Jimmy added. Ashley sighed in relief, then suddenly arched her back, gasping. Jimmy had put his lips around her nipple and had started to suck. Ashley felt like the pink crown of her breast was going to explode in fireworks. She gasped for air sharply, and then once more. Paul had spread her legs and now was slowly entering her femininity with his shaft. But where Brett had been hard and demanding, Paul opened her tender folds gently, as if parting a silken curtain. He glided slowly into her tunnel of love, widening Ashley carefully. Paul seemed to explore her, not just take her, and he enjoyed every fraction of an inch while he did it. It felt totally different from Brett's selfish intrusion. Gradually Ashley relaxed, allowing Paul to go deeper, which he carefully did. Ashley's mouth opened wide as she moaned her pleasure into the air while her unsated pussy adjusted to the thicker meat of Paul's manhood.
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Last edited by Pure : 03-08-2009 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 03-09-2009, 01:04 PM   #22
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hi tarakin, welcome to the sdc. thank you for contributing a story.
It was my pleasure, I learn much out of it and can only recommend it to any fledgeling author.
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Originally Posted by Pure View Post
it does have a nice flow as sexual encounter; it's well thought out.
Thank you very much!
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Originally Posted by Pure View Post
i want to concentrate on diction; manyheaded mentioned 'tunnel of love.' that and other terms are rather grating. beyond that, you have to look at consistency. we have 'tunnel of love,' 'vagina,' 'pussy, 'femininity.' do you aim for coy faux sweetness [see below], or raunch (pussy), or anatomy book (vagina), or romance novel talk (femininity)?

example of wild mixing: her unsated pussy adjusted to the thicker meat of Paul's manhood.


sometimes the sweetness has a 'put on' [tongue in cheek, even satiric] quality, like the famous novel, Candy. _the dear girl's sweet bud was dripping honey from her charming treasure trove._ but that is perilously close to romance novel talk, if it takes itself seriously. "femininity" is just too coy outside the romance novel that tries to avoid sexy terms. so make up your mind. and just as i'd suggest avoiding the romance-novel talk, similarly avoid the impossibly literary terms, like 'unsated pussy.' (ease up on the thesaurus, man!).

so my advice is to decide [on how the narrator is going to talk; who is he?], and have a native speaker ratify your choice.
Okay, point taken.
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if your current editor doesn't do this, have another checker.
She's very good, we'll both have an eye on this issue.
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another issue in porn or erotica, if you aspire to be better, is adjectives; the trite ones. ivory thighs, rosy nipples, secret depths. change, or even better, prune; the writing is adjective heavy.
Okay.
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you've set yourself a challenging goal, "my flower opened at a biker gangbang.': //Ashley could not comprehend what had happened to her and shivered, like a newborn flower after winter's last cold rain.// i think you could pull it off; you have authorly talent and an excellent command of english; attend a bit more to your choice of words, and get native speaker assists over and above what you've used to date.
Thank you very much!
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