the marks of a slave

[eastern sun]

Originally Posted by rosco rathbone

Why is this necessarily the case? Especially if neither party wants it?

You'd be surprised the authority someone gains when they simply don't panic in previously unknown circumstances.

It took us a long time to even realize - and then acknowledge - that the power had shifted. And then it took even longer to admit that we were both desperately unhappy.

[FloggingMolly]

I don't think we're necessarily desperately unhappy. We'd both like more time and energy, but most days aren't conducive to that. We jokingly refer to our son as 'the uberDom' as he rules us both

[eastern sun]

Originally Posted by FloggingMolly

I don't think we're necessarily desperately unhappy. We'd both like more time and energy, but most days aren't conducive to that. We jokingly refer to our son as 'the uberDom' as he rules us both

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to imply that you are or would be unhappy. That was just something that happened to us - and we didn't realize what the source of our discomfort was until after we adopted the M/s structure and everything "fell into place." But we hadn't had a conscious power exchange prior to our son being born. . . it was just the way we interacted. We weren't really aware of the power dynamics in the relationship until we started actively playing with them.

[rosco rathbone]

Originally Posted by FloggingMolly

I have strong feelings about how I want to do things.

And the father defers always to the strong feelings? Does he ever challenge them with his own ideas?

[FloggingMolly]

ES I didn't mean I thought you thought we were
RR he mostly agrees with my instincts. We haven't had many differences of opinion but he usually conceeds because I persist and he wants me to be happy

[rosco rathbone]

Originally Posted by FloggingMolly

ES I didn't mean I thought you thought we were
RR he mostly agrees with my instincts. We haven't had many differences of opinion but he usually conceeds because I persist and he wants me to be happy

It doesn't sound as if you're all that happy, although I might be reading into "has made me the decision maker and I don't see a way around it."

I'm fascinated by this whole thing. There's a cultural assumption in our shared background culture (educated middle class english speaking) regarding fatherhood. Fathers are supposed to be far more involved in child rearing than they were 100 years ago, and there's sort of an assumption or meme that they won't quite ever live up to the supposed ideal of equal particiation in the process. The schmucky husband who changes the diapers and so forth, always deferential to his wife's superior knowledge and instinctual ability, always skirting the edges of her resentment that she's "doing all the work".

Not saying this is you or your fam, but it made me think of the cultural meme and how it fits with this cosa nostra.

[rosco rathbone]

To continue, what does it mean to unpack the idea or feeling "has made me the decision maker"?

What that says to me is "I as a woman and mother naturally know the way things are supposed to be done. If he would take initiative and make the decisions that I know to be the right ones, then that would be great. We'd maintain our psychosexual roles AND things would get done properly. But for one reason or another he's unable or unwilling to do so, and so for the sake of the kid, I have to take over."

Is this accurate at all?

[eastern sun]

Originally Posted by rosco rathbone

To continue, what does it mean to unpack the idea or feeling "has made me the decision maker"?

What that says to me is "I as a woman and mother naturally know the way things are supposed to be done. If he would take initiative and make the decisions that I know to be the right ones, then that would be great. We'd maintain our psychosexual roles AND things would get done properly. But for one reason or another he's unable or unwilling to do so, and so for the sake of the kid, I have to take over."

Is this accurate at all?

I'll tackle this.

The first thing we learned after my son was born is that my breasts had a power we'd never seen before. They were able to feed and soothe this little creature whose only interest was in being fed and soothed. The more "success" I had - which is purely biological - the more I bonded with this infant. The more I bonded with the baby, the better able I was to judge what he needed - even as his needs grew more complex.

Infant and mother can become a kind of unit; and my husband perceived us as a gestalt. I became inseparable in some ways from the kids. I was their spokesman when they couldn't articulate their needs.

And because we both were prioritizing their needs over our own, he listened to what I was saying because he thought I did understand what they needed better than he did.

I think - once that's established as a pattern in infancy - it then takes on a life of its own. I felt a kind of power that I then grabbed by the horns, so to speak. I loved it. And I didn't wield power with anywhere near the grace that my husband does.

I also began to lose touch with my own needs, too. I began to perceive the kids' needs as mine, and the only reason I took care of myself at all is because if I was sick or injured, I still had to take care of them (and that sucked).

In spite of the biological advantage of breasts, I don't think this phenomenon is necessarily gender-specific - that women automatically know what's best for their children. I know a number of couples where the dad spends all day with the kids, bottle-feeding them, etc. because the wife is primary breadwinner - and in those families, the dad tends to play the same role as "spokesman" for the kids because he is more intimate with their daily lives.

You're right, though, rosco. There were moments when I wished he would make the decisions that I knew to be the right ones. For us, it was resolved when we formalized the M/s structure. Then, when he wanted me to be in charge and make decisions, I did. When he wanted to make decisions, he did. I still spoke up when I thought it was important, but the formality of the relationship structure simplified matters considerably.

[FloggingMolly]

ES alot of what you've said is spot on. I do feel like we're a unit. I'm still feeding him at nearly one (from choice with no intention of stopping). What ages were your kids when you began being M/s?

I'll try to come back later when I have more time to answer your questions RR

[intothewoods]

With all of the forces at work -- biology, societal pressure, cultural attitudes -- it's kind of a wonder anyone has kids and is happy! But people do. I think even those studies that found that parents were unhappy also indicated that things changed for the better once their kids got older.

Molly -- not sure if this is helpful -- but one thing I did this time is have my husband give the baby one bottle every night. It was so nice because it was their thing, helped him gain confidence and it was a good way to share in the parenting duties. I was reluctant at first to do it, and I think it was a control thing or maybe I just felt like it was my duty as the stay at home mom.

[Bandit58]

Originally Posted by FloggingMolly

<snip>My role as a mother and housewife has made me the decision maker and I don't see a way around it.</snip>

I'm Sir's full time carer. We make decisions together for the most part but sometimes I have to be the one in charge, especially now when he's recovering from abdominal surgery to remove bowel cancer.

I'm not a slave, so take my post with a grain of salt I see what I do as my service to Him. I "take charge" of things so His mind is set at rest. He doesn't need to tell me what to do, I see what needs doing and do it - "pro-active service" if you like.

I still defer to His wishes when He makes them known. I ask questions when needed. But we've been together long enough for me to "just know"

[FloggingMolly]

I'm still thinking this through. Maybe partly it's because all my time and energy is focused on the uberDom I don't feel I have the energy or time to be anything more than his caregiver right now. Maybe I actually desire the control because it means I call the shots according to my own tiredness?

[eastern sun]

These are some of the realities that keep us from living in a fantasy 24/7 all life long: the responsibilities of being an employee, a parent, a breadwinner, a caretaker, the limitations imposed by health issues and aging.

There's an interesting conversation developing in which BDSM is increasingly likened to homosexuality as a sexual preference. Where BDSM was once defined primarily as a realm of sexual activities - (i.e. behaviors that only existed as long as people were doing it, like slave contracts that last a year, or negotiated scenes at play parties), it is now increasingly defined as a sexual preference - (i.e. an innate predisposition that may be acted upon or repressed, like homosexuality or pedophilia).

Maybe I'm extending this logic too far . . . but since we readily accept that there can be gay employees, gay parents, gay breadwinners, gay caretakers, it would also follow that there can be slave employees, slave parents, slave breadwinners, slave caretakers, right? (If you don't like the term "slave" in this context, replace it with "submissive" - though I am trying to capture a certain quality of submission by using "slave" as an adjective.)

Which means, my slavery is not wholly dependent on my actions. It's my desires that become the defining element.

Do you see where this is going? (I have to admit I want to go there. . . .)

On the other hand, most people still use the term "slave" to identify a certain type of relationship, which means "slavery" is totally dependent on being in a relationship with the Other. Neither my desires, nor my actions are the defining element.

No, my slavery in that case is entirely dependent on his acceptance of me as his slave.

In this second case (the one in which I actually live) what would I call this desire I have to be his slave?

[FloggingMolly]

Interesting. But why can't you pick the first one, and not worry about whether it counts or not? You don't need the acceptance of us/bdsm community/the world to define yourself. Unless I've misread your post?

[eastern sun]

Originally Posted by FloggingMolly

Interesting. But why can't you pick the first one, and not worry about whether it counts or not? You don't need the acceptance of us/bdsm community/the world to define yourself. Unless I've misread your post?

I'm spinning my wheels. Hoping I can think my way out of this.

He isn't even interested in reading this thread any more.

[FloggingMolly]

Is he angry that you're choosing the path you're on?

[eastern sun]

Originally Posted by FloggingMolly

Is he angry that you're choosing the path you're on?

You know, I don't know. He seems resentful to me, but I don't know if I'm interpreting his behavior correctly. He claims that he is proud of how my work is developing, and recognizes its value in the community it serves. He doesn't like the impact it is having on his life, and I think it draws attention to areas of his work life he would like to change. He does get angry, though, and I feel like it is directed at me, but it may just be that I'm in the way.

He feels like we don't have enough fun together, which is true. (It's kind of ironic, because it's very like the quality of our relationship when the babies were born.)

[eastern sun]

I've been writing about the boundaries I'm putting around my work - and how the time that I spend working takes away time I used to spend with him - but there's another factor in this that is important.

Even though I say I want to be his slave, I am reluctant to let go of my own resistance. My behavior is affected by some of our sexual activities - and I really don't want to risk the effects erratic (and/or erotic) behavior would have on my developing business. I'm trying so hard right now to sell myself and my work, I don't feel like I can afford some of the more bizarre situations that have arisen when we pursue our desires without inhibitions.

So, even though I say it's him, it's really me putting on the brakes. That's another reason I feel so disappointed. I want the freedom to act without sexual inhibitions.

[FloggingMolly]

I have no suggestions, but I have *hugs*.

[eastern sun]

Originally Posted by FloggingMolly

I have no suggestions, but I have *hugs*.

Thanks, Molly. I don't have a lot of people I can talk to about this aspect of my life - especially not in the circles I'm running in right now. It helps tremendously to say things I'm thinking "out loud" just to sort it all out.

[FloggingMolly]

Everyone needs a sounding board

[Dyslexicea]

Originally Posted by eastern sun

Even though I say I want to be his slave, I am reluctant to let go of my own resistance. My behavior is affected by some of our sexual activities - and I really don't want to risk the effects erratic (and/or erotic) behavior would have on my developing business. I'm trying so hard right now to sell myself and my work, I don't feel like I can afford some of the more bizarre situations that have arisen when we pursue our desires without inhibitions.

So, even though I say it's him, it's really me putting on the brakes. That's another reason I feel so disappointed. I want the freedom to act without sexual inhibitions.

I'm really asking this for very selfish reasons. What I'd like to know is that if sex was removed from your relationship would you still want to be his slave?

I only asking because I have this desire to move to a D/s relationship maybe somewhat more so Master/Slave but this desire is still driven by my sexual desires. The reality of our relationship is she's already more dominant as far as the direction our relationship has taken but to move to D/s is for me about sexual desire, even though I'd like to be submissive in other ways also.

It's not possible to do so full time as we have two daughters not yet three and I don't want them to believe the only choices they have in a relationship is to be dominant or submissive. They'll have enough to deal with having two mommies but in the world we live in others well impose that upon them, as unfair as that is.

I do fully understand how your lifestyle could affect your business. I know if I practiced law here where we live in Iowa, it's rather homophobic, I'd never really be able to establish myself like I have in New York City.

I just hope you can come up with some kind a compromise that works for both of you.

[eastern sun]

Originally Posted by Dyslexicea

I'm really asking this for very selfish reasons. What I'd like to know is that if sex was removed from your relationship would you still want to be his slave?

Well, we have removed sex from our relationship - and I stayed slave. It's just that removing sex from our relationship didn't actually mean we stopped having sex altogether. It just meant that the expectation of sex was removed.

(I know that's complicated. He hoped that removing sex from our relationship would drive me to seek it out with others. It is much more exciting if my extramarital desires and affairs are something of a surprise to him - it is the cuckoldry that he wants more than the ownership of a shared sexual object.)

But, for me too, my desire to be slave is definitely connected to my sexual desires. Though I would trade a weekend of domestic or yard service for a session of impact play or other pre-negotiated experience, and I use behavior I developed as slave to great benefit in both work and volunteer positions, I don't really want to be someone's slave without the sexual component in place.

Being a slave is highly erotic - in my own practice - saturating the whole of my life with sexual energies.

[mitchell67]

Originally Posted by eastern sun

[...]
Even though I say I want to be his slave, I am reluctant to let go of my own resistance. [...]

When I try to follow such statements, I am better able to understand why there was a time when women were not allowed to enter into legal contracts.

[eastern sun]

Originally Posted by mitchell67

When I try to follow such statements, I am better able to understand why there was a time when women were not allowed to enter into legal contracts.

Hence, the need for legal contracts. It fixes what is essentially a fluid world.