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Old 12-05-2011, 03:19 AM   #2051
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Post re: blips

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Originally Posted by rosco rathbone View Post
We can definitely spot it with our subdar. Only takes a couple minutes of interaction, sometimes not even that.
There was one instance that stands out when I know that a woman was submissive. It was a bit freaky and clinical in how she presented her symptoms. Every other sentence ended in a tag question. I had just met her but, likely because she took me for a putative authority, she was desperate in her need to be acknowledged as worthy of my time and attention. Later on, I learned that her husband physically and verbally abused her, which explained her pancaked makeup, and yet that is exactly the kind of relationship that she likely felt most comfortable in.

In other more pleasant contexts, it is, indeed, the interaction that tips the hat of a sub for me. Do I independently detect her nature or does she signal to me after recognzing something that attracts her in my words or gestures. Submission does not require permission nor acquiesence, yet domination implies some sort of acknowledgement. So does this mean that it is easier for a sub to transmit her nature or that I simply prefer encountering a sub who demonstrates her submissiveness to me?
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Old 12-07-2011, 12:53 PM   #2052
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Originally Posted by mitchell67 View Post
There was one instance that stands out when I know that a woman was submissive. It was a bit freaky and clinical in how she presented her symptoms. Every other sentence ended in a tag question. I had just met her but, likely because she took me for a putative authority, she was desperate in her need to be acknowledged as worthy of my time and attention. Later on, I learned that her husband physically and verbally abused her, which explained her pancaked makeup, and yet that is exactly the kind of relationship that she likely felt most comfortable in.

In other more pleasant contexts, it is, indeed, the interaction that tips the hat of a sub for me. Do I independently detect her nature or does she signal to me after recognzing something that attracts her in my words or gestures. Submission does not require permission nor acquiesence, yet domination implies some sort of acknowledgement. So does this mean that it is easier for a sub to transmit her nature or that I simply prefer encountering a sub who demonstrates her submissiveness to me?
I'm kind of curious why you chose the word "symptoms" to describe the woman's submissive behavior. It makes me think the behavior was unhealthy, and I think that was your intention in the first case. What's the difference between one woman's symptoms and another one's desirability?

I'm also intrigued by your musings on submission, dominance and the need for some form of consent or acknowledgement. That a submissive may submit without permission; but that a dominant needs the consent of the dominated. (At least, that's how I'm understanding you. . . )

I wonder how often dominance is a consensual relationship. And how often it is en-forced, subtly or not so subtly. By physical force. By cultural expectations. By economic realities. etc.

We raise our children to recognize status relationships and power exchanges in our family structures, our schools, our workplaces, and our relationships.

How much are we responding to the animals that we are? And how much are we responding to the cultural norms and structures?
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Old 12-08-2011, 09:02 AM   #2053
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After 3 years I am thrilled to find this thread going strong and beautiful as ever.

ES, you are one of the kind
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Old 12-08-2011, 02:45 PM   #2054
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastern sun View Post

I wonder how often dominance is a consensual relationship. And how often it is en-forced, subtly or not so subtly. By physical force. By cultural expectations. By economic realities. etc.

We raise our children to recognize status relationships and power exchanges in our family structures, our schools, our workplaces, and our relationships.

How much are we responding to the animals that we are? And how much are we responding to the cultural norms and structures?
I am not a frequent poster or very old to this site but dominance for me can be a huge consensual relationship . I have trouble explaining the following so I hope you get what i mean .

it is my job not only to make my sub know and feel that she fulfills my needs, desires and demmands but it is my job to be her Master whenever and how ever she wants me to whether its her love of degradation or bondage.For me Dominance is enforced by both aspects

In any family house hold all children , pets and individuals know the status and power exchanges but it does not have to restrict the animals that we are .
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Old 12-08-2011, 03:04 PM   #2055
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco rathbone View Post
We can definitely spot it with our subdar. Only takes a couple minutes of interaction, sometimes not even that.
I wanna know if I've ever been spotted. Actually, a few dudes have when they've gotten me alone with them. I could sense a subtle shift in their demeanor that told me they were going to take control of the exchange. (Of course all of those situations made me extremely uncomfortable and I got out of them pretty quickly.)

I once asked a friend why she thought that guys never approached me or asked me out despite plenty of them being attracted on some level, and she said that they probably found me intimidating in social settings. I wonder how often s-types give off that vibe?
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Old 12-09-2011, 05:28 AM   #2056
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From Werner Herzog
It is not that I hate it, I love it. I love it very much. But I love it against my better judgment.
Or better yet:
It is not that I love it, I don't hate it. And I want it against my better judgment.


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I am the same, rida.

And it doesn't even have to look like "love" in other peoples' eyes. I just have to know, deep in my bones, that I am loved by the person who is using me.

And, if you're able to love yourself, it isn't difficult to know when you are not loved by someone else.
Yes.
It does not matter that others do not recognize it as love. I have to feel (and believe) that it is. And for all the ability I have to blind myself, I cannot see love where there is none.

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What do you think? I know a lot of people think a bruised face is too high a price. But I know a lot of people with bruised faces, too. What do you think? Has time given you any answers?
Having a darker and uneven complexion made the bruising almost invisible. A good thing, all in all. (Although a bit disappointing that nobody but Hubby even noticed my slightly swelling cheek ... )

Was it too high a price? It was the price that had to be paid at that point.
Was it truly worth it? I don't know yet.
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Old 12-09-2011, 07:50 PM   #2057
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After 3 years I am thrilled to find this thread going strong and beautiful as ever.

ES, you are one of the kind
Thank you, Kat. It's good to see you. . .
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Old 12-09-2011, 08:07 PM   #2058
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Originally Posted by Mjlonir97 View Post
I am not a frequent poster or very old to this site but dominance for me can be a huge consensual relationship . I have trouble explaining the following so I hope you get what i mean .

it is my job not only to make my sub know and feel that she fulfills my needs, desires and demands but it is my job to be her Master whenever and how ever she wants me to whether its her love of degradation or bondage.For me Dominance is enforced by both aspects

In any family house hold all children , pets and individuals know the status and power exchanges but it does not have to restrict the animals that we are .
I'm afraid I'm not fully understanding you. When you say "dominance can be a huge consensual relationship," who is consenting? The dominant? Consenting to the submissive's desires?

When you say, "dominance is enforced by both aspects," do you mean that your dominance in the relationship is reinforced by the fact that a) your sub knows that she is fulfilling your needs and desires and b) you know that you are fulfilling hers? Are you saying that your dominant position will be more secure if everyone's needs are being met?

And . . . what do you mean when you say "it does not have to restrict the animals that we are?" Are you implying that we can still be dominant animals in a culturally submissive position? Or are you saying something altogether different?

I'm not questioning your statements themselves, I'm just not sure that I'm understanding you correctly.
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Old 12-12-2011, 07:25 PM   #2059
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eastern sun View Post
I'm afraid I'm not fully understanding you. When you say "dominance can be a huge consensual relationship," who is consenting? The dominant? Consenting to the submissive's desires?

When you say, "dominance is enforced by both aspects," do you mean that your dominance in the relationship is reinforced by the fact that a) your sub knows that she is fulfilling your needs and desires and b) you know that you are fulfilling hers? Are you saying that your dominant position will be more secure if everyone's needs are being met?

And . . . what do you mean when you say "it does not have to restrict the animals that we are?" Are you implying that we can still be dominant animals in a culturally submissive position? Or are you saying something altogether different?

I'm not questioning your statements themselves, I'm just not sure that I'm understanding you correctly.
Yes for myself in some aspects being Dominant is consenting to the submissive desire to be dominated. I mean a) more of less she knows because sometimes there are rewards or not.

I feel that my dominant position is secure because both of your needs are being met . You have exactly hit the nail on the head i am implying that I believe that people can be dominant animals in a culturally submissive position

Thank you so much for actually making sense of my confused thoughts , I am always here to be educated and have those who know more speak .
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Old 12-14-2011, 08:37 PM   #2060
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His current fantasy runs something like this . . .

An attractive older woman blackmails a homely younger woman, her employee perhaps?, into having unwanted sex with her, sex that starts out simply nonconsensual and then gradually gets more sadistic and extreme.

I ask myself, to what degree will I end up living it. . .

A couple years ago I discovered by chance that I had been living one of his fantasies for some time, firmly convinced that it was mine. In retrospect, I could see the slow and patient methods he had used to gradually embed it in my behavior.

So. Today. Knowing the fantasy to be his. Recognizing its "alien" quality. Will I still find myself living it in years to come as though it were my own? Or, if it ever comes to pass, will it simply be a matter of "do it because I said so"?

He far prefers the first.
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Old 12-14-2011, 09:31 PM   #2061
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His current fantasy runs something like this . . .

An attractive older woman blackmails a homely younger woman, her employee perhaps?, into having unwanted sex with her, sex that starts out simply nonconsensual and then gradually gets more sadistic and extreme.

I ask myself, to what degree will I end up living it. . .

A couple years ago I discovered by chance that I had been living one of his fantasies for some time, firmly convinced that it was mine. In retrospect, I could see the slow and patient methods he had used to gradually embed it in my behavior.

So. Today. Knowing the fantasy to be his. Recognizing its "alien" quality. Will I still find myself living it in years to come as though it were my own? Or, if it ever comes to pass, will it simply be a matter of "do it because I said so"?

He far prefers the first.
Reminds me of Inception.
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:18 AM   #2062
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. . . oops . . .
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Old 12-15-2011, 07:19 AM   #2063
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Reminds me of Inception.
Did it have a happy ending?
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Old 12-15-2011, 08:59 PM   #2064
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Did it have a happy ending?
Heh, it sort of did, I suppose. I didn't like it -- I was expecting some deep, existential-like shit but it was really just a typical action movie. The action just took place in dreams rather than the real world.
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Old 12-15-2011, 10:46 PM   #2065
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Post re: an indication of something

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I'm kind of curious why you chose the word "symptoms" to describe the woman's submissive behavior. It makes me think the behavior was unhealthy, and I think that was your intention in the first case. What's the difference between one woman's symptoms and another one's desirability?

I'm also intrigued by your musings on submission, dominance and the need for some form of consent or acknowledgement. That a submissive may submit without permission; but that a dominant needs the consent of the dominated. (At least, that's how I'm understanding you. . . )

I wonder how often dominance is a consensual relationship. And how often it is en-forced, subtly or not so subtly. By physical force. By cultural expectations. By economic realities. etc.

We raise our children to recognize status relationships and power exchanges in our family structures, our schools, our workplaces, and our relationships.

How much are we responding to the animals that we are? And how much are we responding to the cultural norms and structures?
You understand me well so give yourself credit. Symptom can be a neutral term although its connotations in this context are pertinent. The symptoms of a woman's submissiveness are separate from her desirability. Not all submissive woman are equally desirable and I would aver that the least desirable ones are those who unconsciously submit or fight against their own nature.
To follow further on your query, I don't believe that the woman's submissiveness was unhealthy. Again, that is a neutral state. The relationship that she was in was, without a doubt, unhealthy, which is likely related to how she sees herself. Sadly, I think she did not think of herself actively as a woman with submissive qualities, but she was driven blindly and passively to respond to her innate needs and desires. I think we have all met this type.
I can tell you what a friend does to illustrate my other point. She loves to volunteer at her church, often choosing the least desirable tasks. She gets pleasure from scrubbing floors and scouring the pots and pans. The pleasure is in the service to others and perhaps, on some level, to her god, the ultimate in authority figures. She would never ask for praise, but, of course, it made it all worthwhile if ever anybody complimented her on a job well done. If, however, nothing was said, she was simply more resolved to work harder.
So this is an example of her submission without the need for consent. If you can think of a similar example for a dominant type, I want to hear it. Similarly I can think of many wives who are submissive even if their husbands do not reciprocate. It might be very unfulfiling in the long run, but they don't need the husbands' consent to engage in their actions. You might argue that some husbands attempt to dominate their wives. Yet what is the first things that society tells such a wife and it's not: "Oh, you ought to try submitting to his dominant personality".
I think you might be missing some points in your understanding of children and their socialization. All children are born helpless and dependent. We don't need to teach them that. Just being smaller makes them aware that others have more power. It's not acculturation as much as physicality for most of their growing years. But for that matter, they are exposed to cooperative as well as chain of command relationships; mutually beneficial, as well as, parasitic. I think that the best thing that we can do for children is to teach them how to recognize such relationships. The natural/societal debate is mostly academic masturbation.
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Old 12-16-2011, 12:21 AM   #2066
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You understand me well so give yourself credit. Symptom can be a neutral term although its connotations in this context are pertinent. The symptoms of a woman's submissiveness are separate from her desirability. Not all submissive woman are equally desirable and I would aver that the least desirable ones are those who unconsciously submit or fight against their own nature.
To follow further on your query, I don't believe that the woman's submissiveness was unhealthy. Again, that is a neutral state. The relationship that she was in was, without a doubt, unhealthy, which is likely related to how she sees herself. Sadly, I think she did not think of herself actively as a woman with submissive qualities, but she was driven blindly and passively to respond to her innate needs and desires. I think we have all met this type.
I can tell you what a friend does to illustrate my other point. She loves to volunteer at her church, often choosing the least desirable tasks. She gets pleasure from scrubbing floors and scouring the pots and pans. The pleasure is in the service to others and perhaps, on some level, to her god, the ultimate in authority figures. She would never ask for praise, but, of course, it made it all worthwhile if ever anybody complimented her on a job well done. If, however, nothing was said, she was simply more resolved to work harder.
So this is an example of her submission without the need for consent. If you can think of a similar example for a dominant type, I want to hear it. Similarly I can think of many wives who are submissive even if their husbands do not reciprocate. It might be very unfulfiling in the long run, but they don't need the husbands' consent to engage in their actions. You might argue that some husbands attempt to dominate their wives. Yet what is the first things that society tells such a wife and it's not: "Oh, you ought to try submitting to his dominant personality".
I think you might be missing some points in your understanding of children and their socialization. All children are born helpless and dependent. We don't need to teach them that. Just being smaller makes them aware that others have more power. It's not acculturation as much as physicality for most of their growing years. But for that matter, they are exposed to cooperative as well as chain of command relationships; mutually beneficial, as well as, parasitic. I think that the best thing that we can do for children is to teach them how to recognize such relationships. The natural/societal debate is mostly academic masturbation.
That's the first time I've heard the nature/nurture debate likened to masturbation. I'm willing to go there. Yeah. Though I do think some analysis of innate vs. learned behavior is useful. But, I've always gotten off on masturbation.

I think I do have a different perspective on children and their socialization. It's true that children are born helpless and dependent, but it's astonishing how quickly children learn to manipulate their environment. Some children express dominant traits at a very young age. And some express submissiveness. Our families and cultures then impose their "norms" on the children's raw behavior. And that's how we end up "fighting" against our own nature. At least that's how I see it.

I fully understand the way your friend chooses to express herself, and that it doesn't need a consensual agreement. But I have interacted with people who expressed dominance without consent. For example, there are women I have known who never make it on time to pick up their kids on time so that others have to care for them, who never listen to what others are saying in response to their requests but just assume that things will happen as they wish, who always express themselves forcefully and physically "dominate" the group. And, yes, it is true that they are relying on other people not to fight them off which is a kind of consent, I suppose. But I do think it's possible to dominate others by not giving them a chance to express themselves.
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Old 12-17-2011, 02:46 PM   #2067
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I feed my desire on crumbs.

"Our sex life is over."

I have discovered my beauty just in time to dry it between the pages of a book, like a fading flower from a long lost night.

I do not want to be the desiccated crone.
No, I am not the desiccated crone. Not yet.

It's water that I need.

But I am filled with liquid.

If water will not be served to me then I will serve myself.

The slave will serve herself. Succulent, mouth-watering, delicious.

I lay myself on his table.

He smiles, and squeezes my shoulder. He loves me.

But there are some truths that cannot be denied.

"Our sex life is over."

I have spent my life resisting the urge to wish I were someone else.
But once in a while I do.
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:31 PM   #2068
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"I'm not letting you go," he said.

The sweetest sweet nothing whispered in my ear.
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Old 12-18-2011, 12:51 PM   #2069
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"I'm not letting you go," he said.

The sweetest sweet nothing whispered in my ear.
I agree..

I have been facing some serious challenges in my relationship lately. At one point recently Daddy said "Even if you asked for release, I would not allow it".

Now for us I am not a slave and I do not live with him so it is more conceptual then actual. But it is enough to keep me where I am. It is enough to give me hope and continue through the challenge.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:33 AM   #2070
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I agree..

I have been facing some serious challenges in my relationship lately. At one point recently Daddy said "Even if you asked for release, I would not allow it".

Now for us I am not a slave and I do not live with him so it is more conceptual then actual. But it is enough to keep me where I am. It is enough to give me hope and continue through the challenge.
Sometimes it's the worst thing I can imagine to go through all these changes . . . learn patience and acceptance the hard way . . . "put up" with the more difficult parts of the relationship. . . "sacrifice myself". . . only to be left behind as he moves on to something else.

Sometimes I think I'd be just fine.
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Old 12-19-2011, 06:40 AM   #2071
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He sleeps with his leg across my body. It's heavy, and uncomfortable in warm weather.

But he always knows when I move in the night.
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Old 12-19-2011, 09:15 AM   #2072
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He sleeps with his leg across my body. It's heavy, and uncomfortable in warm weather.

But he always knows when I move in the night.
You painted a lovely image in my mind now.

I sincerely wish I could belong to someone like that. And yet on conscious level I know I would feel smothered and fight teeth and claw to push not only his leg but him out of my bed in no time.
I cant really blame them if they just get up and walk out. I wouldnt want to fight somebody like me either.

Still, its a beautiful image arousing warmth and painful longing somewhere deep inside me. I wish I was more like you.
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:00 PM   #2073
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You painted a lovely image in my mind now.

I sincerely wish I could belong to someone like that. And yet on conscious level I know I would feel smothered and fight teeth and claw to push not only his leg but him out of my bed in no time.
I cant really blame them if they just get up and walk out. I wouldnt want to fight somebody like me either.

Still, its a beautiful image arousing warmth and painful longing somewhere deep inside me. I wish I was more like you.
I don't know. If there was anything about me that I would wish upon you it would be my ability to love myself, even when I'm wishing I was someone else.

But maybe you already have that Kat in the bag.
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:08 PM   #2074
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He sleeps with his leg across my body. It's heavy, and uncomfortable in warm weather.

But he always knows when I move in the night.
Lucky you
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Old 12-20-2011, 08:09 PM   #2075
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And believe me, I have fought him off. With tooth and nail at times.

I just don't win.

Or . . . maybe I should say . . . even if I do win, I don't win.

It's only when he wins, that I win.

It's taken me years to figure that out.


Time is the mother of truth.
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