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The thin line of Abuse

YourCaptor

YourCaptor

Cute Girl Connoisseur
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Posts
4,550
“This man sold his wife to his neighbor for a beer.”

I came across this story and thought, shit, that could be me.

Of course this incident is not BDSM, and there are kids being abused, so there isn’t much to say for this news story… but if it were ever so slightly different.

Now I am thinking abuse, old topic I know, but still an important one.

Abuse - to use wrongly or improperly

I am curious about your thoughts on a few things.

What does it mean to abuse a slave or sub?
or
How does one wrongly or improperly use a slave or sub?
and
How do you recognize abuse in your own relationship?
 
My answer would be: your sub or slave should be growing, improving, and blossoming from the relationship. Even most of the fairly hardcore types I've known view slaves as valuable property, to be developed and improved, rather than damaged or neglected. They put them through college, helped them gain skills, self-confidence, and so on.

So that would be my answer. Are they better off for the time they've spent in your service? If not, you're doing it wrong.
 
Last edited:
Cat explains this so much better, but here goes.

It depends on the degree of consent. There's a consent that's based on fear and low self esteem, and there's consent where you've seeked (is that a word) out a relationship like this - this is how you like it. In the first form of consent there's very little power. There are no 'safewords' or 'hard limits'. In the second one, things are discussed before the power is 'exchanged'. Even in a slave relationship, the slave didn't just go into this situation where s/he has no power. They dated, they met, they interviewed . . . whatever. They found someone they can trust with the power and then made a conscious decision to have no power.

I think a lot of D/s relationships are abuse - but that's the other part about abuse. Going up to an abused woman and trying to force them to 'get help' doesn't work. As long as they don't want to leave their situation, they won't. And going up to them and informing them that they're abused is about as welcome as someone coming up to me and telling me I'm fat.
 
YourCaptor said:
I am curious about your thoughts on a few things.

What does it mean to abuse a slave or sub?
or
How does one wrongly or improperly use a slave or sub?
and
How do you recognize abuse in your own relationship?
Click to expand...

There are several forms of abuse, not just physical. There's emotional and verbal abuse, and there's financial abuse like in the following article:
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/632369/dominatrix-jailed-over-slave-inheritance

I lived through 23 years of emotional abuse. This was not a D/s relationship. It was so subtle that I did not realise it was abusive until someone else pointed it out to me. By then my self esteem was shot and I had no confidence that I could get myself out and cope on my own. There were children involved but by the time I left one was 18 and the other 14 - old enough to understand and make their own choices about who they would live with. It took me a long time to get up the courage to tell him I was leaving, and quite a while to get used to living alone. But I did it :)

My ex used to not speak to me for days if I displeased him. He would put me down and take me for granted. He is a farmer, but I have seen him mistreat animals. He never hit me or the kids, but if he could almost kill a sheep with his hands and feet I had that thought in the back of my mind. However if he had ever raised a hand to the kids, that would have been the end right there :mad:

Now I have the skills to recognise red flags when I see them, and the confidence to not put up with anything that may harm me either physically or emotionally. I'm never ever going to give anyone control over my finances. That is top of my hard limit list.

Sir has never abused me. I'm treated with love and respect always.
 
in any Ds relationship there has to be mutual respect and trust - as was previously mentioned while a slave has no safewords or hard limits there was discussion before the Ms began so both parties knew what the other needed and wanted from the relationship and each other

i do not agree that all Ds relationships are abuse - i am living in a 24/7 TPE Ms relationship and i know that i am my Master's most prized possession - recent events have made that even clearer

i do not agree because in many instances the Ds relationship does not involve any aspect of Sm or pain

it is possible though that abuse can be found in some DS relationships as it can be found in any type of relationship - and that can be from both sides

it is possible for an irresponsible/inexperienced Dom/me to harm their sub/slave - and it is possible for a sub/slave to abuse their Dom/me

how can it be recognised? in my opinion it can be recognised in the same way as in any relationship

a healthy Ds or Ms relationship is one of mutual respect and trust - one where the Dom/me or Master/Mistress is helping/encouraging their sub/slave to grow and achieve their potential and under whom the sub/slave is glowing and content - and where the Dom/me Master/Mistress is also content and growing

this is such a hot topic and one i could say so much more about but right now Master needs His breakfast! :)
 
I left a message on the visitor boards at Steve Wilko's site, telling his producers they ought to do a BDSM segment.
 
In response to all.

What about individual incidents in an otherwise healthy relationship, when the sub/slave is simply miserable, yet does the task anyway for any number of reasons.

Is that abuse, is that a misuse of the sub/slave?

How can one define abuse in power exchange.

It can't be judged by the end result of the relationship, thats just hindsight, its useless in this case.
 
YourCaptor said:

What does it mean to abuse a slave or sub?
or
How does one wrongly or improperly use a slave or sub?
and
How do you recognize abuse in your own relationship?
Click to expand...


there are generally two schools of thought when it comes to abuse and M/s. one is that there is no such thing as abuse of a slave, as the fact that the slave has no rights and that the Owner has free reign over his property makes "wrong or improper use" impossible. the second is that abuse of a slave is indeed possible, when abuse is defined as "to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way". my Master and i are of this second school, we recognize the fact that realigning my jaw, breaking ribs, crushing my spirit, battering me psychologically...would certainly qualify as abuse. but as Master we feel he has the right to abuse what belongs to him. the real question imo is can the individual slave tolerate being abused, especially over the long haul. some of us can. those who can't, had best choose their Owner wisely.
 
YourCaptor said:
In response to all.

What about individual incidents in an otherwise healthy relationship, when the sub/slave is simply miserable, yet does the task anyway for any number of reasons.

Is that abuse, is that a misuse of the sub/slave?

How can one define abuse in power exchange.

It can't be judged by the end result of the relationship, thats just hindsight, its useless in this case.
Click to expand...


When the sub/bottom decides they are being abused they pretty much are.

When they feel like they're doing something unpleasant because it's part of their status as a slave, it pretty much is.

It's like obscenity, it's subjective, and it's up to the public, not the artist.
 
ownedsubgal said:
there are generally two schools of thought when it comes to abuse and M/s. one is that there is no such thing as abuse of a slave, as the fact that the slave has no rights and that the Owner has free reign over his property makes "wrong or improper use" impossible. the second is that abuse of a slave is indeed possible, when abuse is defined as "to treat in a harmful, injurious, or offensive way". my Master and i are of this second school, we recognize the fact that realigning my jaw, breaking ribs, crushing my spirit, battering me psychologically...would certainly qualify as abuse. but as Master we feel he has the right to abuse what belongs to him. the real question imo is can the individual slave tolerate being abused, especially over the long haul. some of us can. those who can't, had best choose their Owner wisely.
Click to expand...

Does selling your service for beer fall under abuse? Would it to others?

Assuming there is no intent to harm, the abuser can’t decided if they are abusive, in their mind it’s all right.

Netzach said:
When the sub/bottom decides they are being abused they pretty much are.

When they feel like they're doing something unpleasant because it's part of their status as a slave, it pretty much is.

It's like obscenity, it's subjective, and it's up to the public, not the artist.
Click to expand...

That doesn’t work, what if the sub decide green is blue, doesn’t change what’s really going on.

It also sort of defeats the whole purpose. If the artist creates for them self and creates what the public wants, it doesn't work.
 
YourCaptor said:
Does selling your service for beer fall under abuse? Would it to others?

Assuming there is no intent to harm, the abuser can’t decided if they are abusive, in their mind it’s all right.



That doesn’t work, what if the sub decide green is blue, doesn’t change what’s really going on.

It also sort of defeats the whole purpose. If the artist creates for them self and creates what the public wants, it doesn't work.
Click to expand...


It's not going to matter if the sub decides green is blue, and the entire external culture backs them up the Dom is pretty much screwed, isn't he/she?

I'm not talking about artists pandering to the public, I'm saying if the public is offended the intent doesn't matter. The intent doesn't matter at all if the message doesn't come across clearly and other readings are read.
 
i feel that as a slave it is vital to discuss everything with your potential Master in great detail ad nauseum - so that you both know what you are getting into

just because you have a slave heart doesn't mean you have to be daft and get yourself into a situation where you may be harmed

i also think that Masters are taking a risk everytime they play - because the "slave" may call abuse and then the law is on their side - so communication and trust are vital on both sides

as slaves today we do give up control to our Masters but we don't give up our brain and i doubt that there are any Masters who want a robot as a slave - we need to think about our welfare - while trusting our Masters to care for and protect us

but we are ultimately responsible to let our Masters know if we feel something may harm us - it is then up to them to decide what to do about it

one of my main duties to my Master is to make sure that His property is well - and that means i have to tell Him how i am and how i am feeling

Master told me at the outset that was one of my main roles - He owns me and He wants me in good shape and condition - emotionally as well as physically

it is easy as someone pointed out to see things with hindsight - but sometimes that is the only time we can see things - when we are in the middle of a situation it is hard to be objective
 
To clear things up a bit, its not my ass I'm trying to save. I have mostly come to terms with society.

I'm trying to save the pyls ass, keep her from getting hurt. The chance is there, since not everything will be discussed, cause you know, the best things in life are the unexpected ones.

I'm looking for some better understand on this.

At the moment the only thing concrete I got, for me at least, is that using a sub while under the influence, be it drugs or rage, is indeed misuse.
 
YourCaptor said:
How can one define abuse in power exchange.
Click to expand...

All D/s relationships are based on some sorts of agreements. Soft limits, hard limits, and safe words are examples of things usually found in those agreements, whether verbal or written. If you're enforcing orders which violate your agreements, then you may well have crossed the border into abuse. If no agreements have been worked out, then I'd have to say it's abuse at whatever point the sub/slave feels like it is, and you, as the Dom(me) have nobody to blame but yourself, because you should have taken the responsibility to get all that worked out in the beginning.

That's where the guy in the original article qualifies as an abuser rather than a Dom. She has not agreed to serve as he forces her to serve.

Of course, there can still be abusive and pathological relationships which include consent, but I leave that distinction to judges and court-appointed psychiatrists to sort out. I don't think that has any place on an Internet forum, because people in those sorts of relationships will either figure it out and get help, or they won't, nothing anyone else in the community says is likely to make much difference, aside from starting flame wars.
 
just a thought.... what about relationships were humiliation and objectification are involved?

please may i ask - what is a pyls?? - thank you
 
Hisscarlett said:
just a thought.... what about relationships were humiliation and objectification are involved?

please may i ask - what is a pyls?? - thank you
Click to expand...

PYL - Pick Your Lable (Dominant, Top, Master, yadayadayada)

pyl - pick your lable (submissive, slave, bottom, yadayadayada)

*Credited to AngelicAssassin
 
Zoots_owner said:
All D/s relationships are based on some sorts of agreements. Soft limits, hard limits, and safe words are examples of things usually found in those agreements, whether verbal or written. If you're enforcing orders which violate your agreements, then you may well have crossed the border into abuse. If no agreements have been worked out, then I'd have to say it's abuse at whatever point the sub/slave feels like it is, and you, as the Dom(me) have nobody to blame but yourself, because you should have taken the responsibility to get all that worked out in the beginning.

That's where the guy in the original article qualifies as an abuser rather than a Dom. She has not agreed to serve as he forces her to serve.

Of course, there can still be abusive and pathological relationships which include consent, but I leave that distinction to judges and court-appointed psychiatrists to sort out. I don't think that has any place on an Internet forum, because people in those sorts of relationships will either figure it out and get help, or they won't, nothing anyone else in the community says is likely to make much difference, aside from starting flame wars.
Click to expand...

Well, thats all good in a perfect scenario, but that doesn't happen.

pyls don't safeword for whatever reason, something had not been touched on in discussion before, or all the tight restrictions that govern an early relationship have loosened as trust built. Or there was never a safeword to being with. In all these cases the PYL still does not want to hurt the pyl.

Things can turn very quickly form wonderful to scaring, its the reality.
 
Hisscarlett said:
just a thought.... what about relationships were humiliation and objectification are involved?

please may i ask - what is a pyls?? - thank you
Click to expand...

What do you mean? Why give them special treatment in this discussion?
 
YourCaptor said:
Well, thats all good in a perfect scenario, but that doesn't happen.

pyls don't safeword for whatever reason, something had not been touched on in discussion before, or all the tight restrictions that govern an early relationship have loosened as trust built. Or there was never a safeword to being with. In all these cases the PYL still does not want to hurt the pyl.

Things can turn very quickly form wonderful to scaring, its the reality.
Click to expand...

My girl has never used her safeword, and would have a hard time even remembering the ones that were agreed to, years ago. But the reason is simple; I know where the line is (even though it keeps moving) where a safeword would be used, and never go there. Communication, and understanding of each other, are vital, and the good Dom(me) knows before they go. Since you obviously care about doing the right thing, I suggest that you might want to work on the communication more.

If the relationship has drifted in the other direction, and the Dom(me) has stopped understanding or caring about when a safeword should be used, then maybe it's time for both of them to move on. BDSM, like all healthy relationships, is supposed to be about growth, not deteriorating ruts.
 
Last edited:
As to the example, there was no consent, this wasn't D/s or BDSM. There really doesn't seem to be a question that the news article example is clearly abuse.

There have been those on these boards who have said if you have consent, then you have no abuse. However, a victim of abuse can seem to consent to the abuse when they remain in the situation. Like Bandit, I was in a 10-year abusive marriage. Oh, he never struck me. That was his defense - it wasn't abuse because he never hit me. It was terribly psychologically and emotionally and verbally abusive. It wasn't D/s. It was abuse, plain and simple. But I stayed for a variety of reasons, first and foremost because the abuse began subtly and developed over time to the point where I questioned my own sanity. Did it really happen the way I recall? I was so brainwashed at the end that I truly wasn't certain that I recalled events correctly. But because a friend had suggested I begin carrying around a recorder because of my questioning myself, I had hours of tapes that let me know I wasn't crazy after all.

As to the definition of abuse, it's such a tough call to make. People in my life tried to tell me I was being abused. But I was so determined to keep my family together that I ignored them. And really, by the time I realized what was going on, I was almost afraid of being able to survive on my own with 2 girls. I had spent a lot of years being mom, not working a career. But it turns out that all of the jobs I took while being a full time mom and the business I ran and the classes I took and the degree I held and the fact that I actually have a brain meant my fears were baseless. But again, brainwashing.

In my mind, abuse occurs when harm is done - psychological, emotional, physical harm - even if consent is given. Are your scenes sending your pyl to the ER on a regular basis? Then it's probably crossed the line into abuse. Is your pyl emotionally damaged by your treatment? Then it's probably crossed the line. Is your pyl completely isolated, dependent upon you for survival to the point that s/he couldn't exist if something happened to you? Then it's probably crossed the line.

A guy who just reaches over and backhands his partner because he can isn't my idea of a Dom. However, he could be someone else's idea of a perfect Dom. So I can't label that abuse in and of itself. No, if she hasn't consented to him having the right to do that, openly consented, then it's abuse plain and simple. If she's agreed to be his slave, and after the fact discovers that they have very different ideas of what that means, she tries to leave and he won't allow her to, then it's crossed a line. I mean, the line moves. It's not a solid black line, but is gray and fuzzy.

So YC, really, you have to decide what feels wrong to you. You've mentioned many times things that lead me to believe that you respect your pyl first and foremost. And that you don't have the kinds of tendencies that would lead to abusive behavior. There are others here on these boards who make me cringe every time I see them post, both male and female, Dom and sub. Red flags are always there, the question is whether we heed them or not. After I did the research into abuse, got healthy emotionally and could look more objectively at my marriage, I realized that the red flags were there all along. But I chose to put them aside and forge on. My mistake and I paid dearly for it. Actually, I'm still paying for it because the son of a bitch can't move on with his life and leave mine alone - another 4 years and then my kids are both 18. I've let myself off the hook for that. It's done and over and I've learned from it. It's made me the person I am today, both bad and good. And now I know what I absolutely won't accept.
 
YourCaptor said:
What do you mean? Why give them special treatment in this discussion?
Click to expand...

i apologise if i came across as wanting to be contrary - it was just a thought that occurred to me when reading a previous reply about how it is abuse if the slave/sub feels a certain way - i thought that could be problematic in that some people's play is about inducing feelings of humiliation in the slave/sub/bottom

i am sorry for causing you offense
 
Zoots_owner said:
My girl has never used her safeword, and would have a hard time even remembering the ones that were agreed to, years ago. But the reason is simple; I know where the line is (even though it keeps moving) where a safeword would be used, and never go there. Communication, and understanding of each other, are vital, and the good Dom(me) knows before they go. Since you obviously care about doing the right thing, I suggest that you might want to work on the communication more.

If the relationship has drifted in the other direction, and the Dom(me) has stopped understanding or caring about when a safeword should be used, then maybe it's time for both of them to move on. BDSM, like all healthy relationships, is supposed to be about growth, not deteriorating ruts.
Click to expand...

i couldn't agree more with this
 
I suppose I will never fully understand the idea of how a person could be abused when they are living in a society which has laws advocating their free will.
The fact that most subs become so of their own volition makes me wonder why they would get so upset about being told to do something they don't want to, when if they chose to get in, why the hell can't they choose to get out? To me it makes even less sense than a 'nilla getting into an abusive situation, because at least a sub goes in with some education as to what they can expect.
It seems to me the question has an underlying tone that a sub in general is in some way a victim.
When it comes down to it, for me, you get treated the way you allow yourself to be treated.

As Elanor Roosevelt said "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent".

Having said that, I realise that I process things in a completely different dimension to most people in this lifestyle. Just my two cents.

KK
 
Zoots_owner said:
My girl has never used her safeword, and would have a hard time even remembering the ones that were agreed to, years ago. But the reason is simple; I know where the line is (even though it keeps moving) where a safeword would be used, and never go there. Communication, and understanding of each other, are vital, and the good Dom(me) knows before they go. Since you obviously care about doing the right thing, I suggest that you might want to work on the communication more.

If the relationship has drifted in the other direction, and the Dom(me) has stopped understanding or caring about when a safeword should be used, then maybe it's time for both of them to move on. BDSM, like all healthy relationships, is supposed to be about growth, not deteriorating ruts.
Click to expand...

I don’t know man, something about this is way off, I just cant seem to articulate it at the moment.

To expect everything to go flawlessly is a flaw in its own. There is no way the dom will always know what’s up, we cant read minds, despite certain claims.


BeachGurl2 said:
Is your pyl completely isolated, dependent upon you for survival to the point that s/he couldn't exist if something happened to you? Then it's probably crossed the line.
Click to expand...

Damn, but thats so hot.

Red flags, you have done the research on abuse right? Is there any specific definition the people who deal with this sort of stuff use?

Hisscarlett said:
i apologise if i came across as wanting to be contrary - it was just a thought that occurred to me when reading a previous reply about how it is abuse if the slave/sub feels a certain way - i thought that could be problematic in that some people's play is about inducing feelings of humiliation in the slave/sub/bottom

i am sorry for causing you offense
Click to expand...

I was and am not offended. It just looked like a tomaeto tomato thing.
 
BeachGurl2 said:
As to the example, there was no consent, this wasn't D/s or BDSM. There really doesn't seem to be a question that the news article example is clearly abuse.

There have been those on these boards who have said if you have consent, then you have no abuse. However, a victim of abuse can seem to consent to the abuse when they remain in the situation. Like Bandit, I was in a 10-year abusive marriage. Oh, he never struck me. That was his defense - it wasn't abuse because he never hit me. It was terribly psychologically and emotionally and verbally abusive. It wasn't D/s. It was abuse, plain and simple. But I stayed for a variety of reasons, first and foremost because the abuse began subtly and developed over time to the point where I questioned my own sanity. Did it really happen the way I recall? I was so brainwashed at the end that I truly wasn't certain that I recalled events correctly. But because a friend had suggested I begin carrying around a recorder because of my questioning myself, I had hours of tapes that let me know I wasn't crazy after all.

As to the definition of abuse, it's such a tough call to make. People in my life tried to tell me I was being abused. But I was so determined to keep my family together that I ignored them. And really, by the time I realized what was going on, I was almost afraid of being able to survive on my own with 2 girls. I had spent a lot of years being mom, not working a career. But it turns out that all of the jobs I took while being a full time mom and the business I ran and the classes I took and the degree I held and the fact that I actually have a brain meant my fears were baseless. But again, brainwashing.

In my mind, abuse occurs when harm is done - psychological, emotional, physical harm - even if consent is given. Are your scenes sending your pyl to the ER on a regular basis? Then it's probably crossed the line into abuse. Is your pyl emotionally damaged by your treatment? Then it's probably crossed the line. Is your pyl completely isolated, dependent upon you for survival to the point that s/he couldn't exist if something happened to you? Then it's probably crossed the line.

A guy who just reaches over and backhands his partner because he can isn't my idea of a Dom. However, he could be someone else's idea of a perfect Dom. So I can't label that abuse in and of itself. No, if she hasn't consented to him having the right to do that, openly consented, then it's abuse plain and simple. If she's agreed to be his slave, and after the fact discovers that they have very different ideas of what that means, she tries to leave and he won't allow her to, then it's crossed a line. I mean, the line moves. It's not a solid black line, but is gray and fuzzy.

So YC, really, you have to decide what feels wrong to you. You've mentioned many times things that lead me to believe that you respect your pyl first and foremost. And that you don't have the kinds of tendencies that would lead to abusive behavior. There are others here on these boards who make me cringe every time I see them post, both male and female, Dom and sub. Red flags are always there, the question is whether we heed them or not. After I did the research into abuse, got healthy emotionally and could look more objectively at my marriage, I realized that the red flags were there all along. But I chose to put them aside and forge on. My mistake and I paid dearly for it. Actually, I'm still paying for it because the son of a bitch can't move on with his life and leave mine alone - another 4 years and then my kids are both 18. I've let myself off the hook for that. It's done and over and I've learned from it. It's made me the person I am today, both bad and good. And now I know what I absolutely won't accept.
Click to expand...


I am so impressed with your dispassionate, rational self-analysis and your conclusion to carry on, with loyalty to your children first and foremost. You have a deep-seated love for a decent life. Thank you for sharing with us your wisdom, expressed with such simple eloquence.
 
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