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Transgender woman killed in Colorado

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Lightheart

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Nov 10, 2005
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I saw this story on the Associated Press wire. I thought it was important enough that everybody needed to know about it.

http://www.rockymountainnews.com/ne...-transgender-slaying/?partner=yahoo_headlines

This is as clear of a hate crime as I can imagine. Andrade even refers to her as "it". The prosecutors need to charge every possible crime in this case. No plea deals. Seek the maximum sentence on everything, possibly including the death penalty (I'm not sure if Colorado has the death penalty, or if it requires premeditated killing if they do have it).

It's a stark reminder that our society isn't as tolerant as it ought to be.
 
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The man who did this crime is not only a murderer but an idiot. He should have found out the details before hooking up IRL. The victim is also partially at fault for not telling him the truth to begin with. Fooling someone about your gender is dangerous and deadly with the wrong person. Most straight men are too homophobic, insecure and ignorant to appreciate a transgender woman. I don't need to say the guy overreacted because that's obvious. Of course he panicked but no one desperate enough to give YOU pleasure deserves to die, I wish morons like him would realize that. It just goes to show you never know who or what you will get when you meet someone online in person. Unfortunately for the victim, she ended up with a monster. As for the perpetrator, he's going to prison and hopefully get life or the death penalty. At least he'll want the death penalty when the other inmates put him in her shoes.

If this had happened to me, I would have been delightfully surprised and embraced the poor soul. Maybe I'm a little biased because its actually a fantasy of mine..
 
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Nope, though it is much better than it used to be. At one time crossdressing was a sure fire way of getting the tar beat out of you, losing the ability to shop at most stores and perhaps losing your job. :eek:
 
Shywong said:
The man who did this crime is not only a murderer but an idiot. He should have found out the details before hooking up IRL. The victim is also partially at fault for not telling him the truth to begin with. Fooling someone about your gender is dangerous and deadly with the wrong person. Most straight men are too homophobic, insecure and ignorant to appreciate a transgender woman. I don't need to say the guy overreacted because that's obvious. Of course he panicked but no one desperate enough to give YOU pleasure deserves to die, I wish morons like him would realize that. It just goes to show you never know who or what you will get when you meet someone online in person. Unfortunately for the victim, she ended up with a monster. As for the perpetrator, he's going to prison and hopefully get life or the death penalty. At least he'll want the death penalty when the other inmates put him in her shoes.

If this had happened to me, I would have been delightfully surprised and embraced the poor soul. Maybe I'm a little biased because its actually a fantasy of mine..
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No, no, no. It is NOT the victim's fault at ALL. It is NEVER the victim's fault. The trans panic defense is becoming just as widespread as the gay panic defense. We don't know why she didn't disclose her true gender, but she may very well have had good reason. We cannot make any assumptions about why she didn't say anything. However, even if she kept it to herself, she had a reasonable expectation to not be KILLED for it. In fact, most people - when interacting with other people - have a right to expect not to be killed. When finding out someone is trans, there are thousands of possible reactions that do NOT involve murder. It is in NO way the victim's fault.
 
Etoile said:
No, no, no. It is NOT the victim's fault at ALL. It is NEVER the victim's fault. The trans panic defense is becoming just as widespread as the gay panic defense. We don't know why she didn't disclose her true gender, but she may very well have had good reason. We cannot make any assumptions about why she didn't say anything. However, even if she kept it to herself, she had a reasonable expectation to not be KILLED for it. In fact, most people - when interacting with other people - have a right to expect not to be killed. When finding out someone is trans, there are thousands of possible reactions that do NOT involve murder. It is in NO way the victim's fault.
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Uhh, you mind calming yourself down and being a little less bitchy and more open minded? I hate when people just pick one little thing out of a paragraph and decide to start a flame war over it. You have your opinion and I have mine, deal with it. You act like I'm BLAMING the victim, all I said is it was partially her fault for going so far as to do oral sex while still deceiving him about her gender. You just don't do that, people don't coop with that kind of shock well and it usually results in someone getting beat up. True she should have expected not to be killed but did I say 'Oh she should have told him she had a penis if she didn't want to die?' No, nothing of the sort, in fact I'm in favor of the victim so don't patronize me with your vigilante equal rights assault. Maybe you should check out my other thread but please don't start a flame war, keep it to yourself if you disagree.
 
Shywong said:
Uhh, you mind calming yourself down and being a little less bitchy and more open minded? I hate when people just pick one little thing out of a paragraph and decide to start a flame war over it. You have your opinion and I have mine, deal with it. You act like I'm BLAMING the victim, all I said is it was partially her fault for going so far as to do oral sex while still deceiving him about her gender. You just don't do that, people don't coop with that kind of shock well and it usually results in someone getting beat up. True she should have expected not to be killed but did I say 'Oh she should have told him she had a penis if she didn't want to die?' No, nothing of the sort, in fact I'm in favor of the victim so don't patronize me with your vigilante equal rights assault. Maybe you should check out my other thread but please don't start a flame war, keep it to yourself if you disagree.
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LOL...you are a lot more worked up about this than I am. Also, I see that you're new here; as the moderator of this board allow me to welcome you and also point out that it's a free speech board, so people can say whatever they like. Enjoy your stay here!
 
Shywong said:
The victim is also partially at fault for not telling him the truth to begin with.
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I think Etoile was RIGHT on and I don't think she was being bitchy.

And in my opinion, you were completely WRONG.

I've hated LOTS of things that people have done in my lifetime. And I have YET to kill someone over it.

To suggest that it was her fault in any way, shape or form.... I can't side with you on that one at ALL.
 
Hmm...I wonder if there's even a difference between trans panic and gay panic? After all, the reason kids like Gwen Araujo get killed is because they are potential romantic interests, and to find out that one's romantic interest is a man means that one's heterosexuality is threatened...so perhaps trans panic is just another form of gay panic, really? Like a subtype maybe.
 
Etoile said:
Hmm...I wonder if there's even a difference between trans panic and gay panic? After all, the reason kids like Gwen Araujo get killed is because they are potential romantic interests, and to find out that one's romantic interest is a man means that one's heterosexuality is threatened...so perhaps trans panic is just another form of gay panic, really? Like a subtype maybe.
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Interesting thought. :confused:

Do you think that a person could be raised SO homophobic that 'gay panic' is a basis for a defense ? I guess that there are a VERY few cases like this and I do NOT personally believe in the defense.

I was raised in the suburbs near you... didn't even know what an African American was ... and I was raised by very closed minded parents ... Would that be an acceptable excuse if I had killed an African American out of the fear that was unrationally instilled in me when I was younger??
 
webber1998 said:
Interesting thought. :confused:

Do you think that a person could be raised SO homophobic that 'gay panic' is a basis for a defense ? I guess that there are a VERY few cases like this and I do NOT personally believe in the defense.

I was raised in the suburbs near you... didn't even know what an African American was ... and I was raised by very closed minded parents ... Would that be an acceptable excuse if I had killed an African American out of the fear that was unrationally instilled in me when I was younger??
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No, of course not. Like you said, lots of people have made you angry in the past, and you haven't killed anybody yet! Even if what made you angry was race, you wouldn't have killed someone because of it. I agree that gay panic is not a justifiable reason for killing someone. When you kill somebody, there is a switch in your brain that says "this is okay." Whatever your reasoning is, you have flipped a switch. No sane person would say "they are gay, therefore it is okay for me to kill them." This has been upheld legally - when the Matthew Shepard killers tried to use gay panic, the judge said that was equivalent to an insanity plea, which isn't allowed in Wyoming. So yeah, "gay panic" is never a defense. It's just a fancy name for "I went psycho and crossed the lines of human normality."
 
Etoile said:
No, of course not. Like you said, lots of people have made you angry in the past, and you haven't killed anybody yet! Even if what made you angry was race, you wouldn't have killed someone because of it. I agree that gay panic is not a justifiable reason for killing someone. When you kill somebody, there is a switch in your brain that says "this is okay." Whatever your reasoning is, you have flipped a switch. No sane person would say "they are gay, therefore it is okay for me to kill them." This has been upheld legally - when the Matthew Shepard killers tried to use gay panic, the judge said that was equivalent to an insanity plea, which isn't allowed in Wyoming. So yeah, "gay panic" is never a defense. It's just a fancy name for "I went psycho and crossed the lines of human normality."
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I could understand someone being VERY angry and then I think that it comes down to a choice. Right from wrong and I don't believe that there is even a gray area here. To me, anyway. To me, gay panic means an "excuse" ... someone doesn't want to take responsibility for their actions.

In this case the guy could have yelled and screamed and run for the door. It was his choice to grab the fire extinguisher and beat another human being to death.
 
Y'know what? I was raised pretty homophobic. That's not a just reason to kill someone. During that period of my life, I might've stopped and freaked out a bit...

So, this guy freaked out. If gay panic was a just excuse for him, that means everything that freaks him out is cause for a murder. Uh... I don't think so. Look, they might've burnt people for being witches in the 1600s, but now we don't go around killing people because they look funny.

He chose to beat her over the head with a fire extinquisher rather than reacting REASONABLY as a reasonable person might when very mad. When I'm higly mad or upset, I might hit someone in an extreme case or yell a lot. I'm still choosing to do that, mind... okay, sometimes it's pretty uncontrollable but y'know. PMS is still just an excuse to justify me raging at someone for burning an egg or something ridiculous.

Gay panic is just as absurd an excuse as PMS.

Yeah, she should've told him. But I think people of any shape, size, color, form and orientation have a right to expect to not be killed for what they are. Pity it isn't so. >< I don't expect every man to want me regardless of the fact that I'm fat, but I expect them not to kill me for it.

Hate crimes disgust me.
 
Noira said:
Y'know what? I was raised pretty homophobic. That's not a just reason to kill someone. During that period of my life, I might've stopped and freaked out a bit...

So, this guy freaked out. If gay panic was a just excuse for him, that means everything that freaks him out is cause for a murder. Uh... I don't think so. Look, they might've burnt people for being witches in the 1600s, but now we don't go around killing people because they look funny.

He chose to beat her over the head with a fire extinquisher rather than reacting REASONABLY as a reasonable person might when very mad. When I'm higly mad or upset, I might hit someone in an extreme case or yell a lot. I'm still choosing to do that, mind... okay, sometimes it's pretty uncontrollable but y'know. PMS is still just an excuse to justify me raging at someone for burning an egg or something ridiculous.

Gay panic is just as absurd an excuse as PMS.

Yeah, she should've told him. But I think people of any shape, size, color, form and orientation have a right to expect to not be killed for what they are. Pity it isn't so. >< I don't expect every man to want me regardless of the fact that I'm fat, but I expect them not to kill me for it.

Hate crimes disgust me.
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is it ok to give you a hug ? you big lovely human being :) heck I am fucking fat too. But anyway here is a hug for your writings :)
 
Shywong said:
The man who did this crime is not only a murderer but an idiot. He should have found out the details before hooking up IRL. The victim is also partially at fault for not telling him the truth to begin with. Fooling someone about your gender is dangerous and deadly with the wrong person. Most straight men are too homophobic, insecure and ignorant to appreciate a transgender woman. I don't need to say the guy overreacted because that's obvious. Of course he panicked but no one desperate enough to give YOU pleasure deserves to die, I wish morons like him would realize that. It just goes to show you never know who or what you will get when you meet someone online in person. Unfortunately for the victim, she ended up with a monster. As for the perpetrator, he's going to prison and hopefully get life or the death penalty. At least he'll want the death penalty when the other inmates put him in her shoes.

If this had happened to me, I would have been delightfully surprised and embraced the poor soul. Maybe I'm a little biased because its actually a fantasy of mine..
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hmmm...of course the victim is at fault. The same as if she'd shown up with the wrong skin color.
Just like girls getting raped for dressing too sexy.
Or people get killed just for being gay in the wrong town.
All these people should have known better and gone back to their own kind, should not have tried to live their own lives without harming others, and usually should have stayed away from good americans.
 
I think Etoile was RIGHT on and I don't think she was being bitchy.
And in my opinion, you were completely WRONG.
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Okay, yeah, I'm completely wrong. Just ignore everything else I said why don't you? I'm wrong for thinking she should have told him one of the most important details about her gender before engaging in sex. It's completely okay to lure someone into a bedroom believing you're something you're not. It's one thing for a guy to lie about his penis size, its another for a woman to lie about having a vagina. You know, because that's what most straight guys want. I never said she should have told the truth if she didn't want to die or it was all her fault. I was saying it would have been wise to let the stupid homophobic sociopath know what he was getting before ever meeting in person. Had she done that this could have been prevented. He should have asked, she should have told. They both gambled and loss, GG. God forbid people to use common sense these days.

That's the best I can explain what I was trying to say. Let me reiterate one more time, I am not blaming the victim. So it would be nice if people stop trying to make me look like the bad guy for suggesting people don't lie when getting intimate.
 
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Shy perhaps you should talk to a transgender woman. She did not say because she liked him and wanted to get to know him better before saying I was born a guy. In case you never noticed this, men who get with a transgender woman tend to freak out and leave, do you really think that's easy to take?

Not to mention, if they announce it as a matter of course, they may be faced with beatings if they are only fairly not lucky. They have the same fears as us regular gals, will he like me, will he think I'm ugly without clothes on, will he like how I suck his cock, will he think I am a good fuck. They also have, will he run away when I tell him the truth, will he beat me, will he kill me.

This case, she was playing it safe and decided she wanted to tell him, I am sure despite the warning signs. A transgender woman who is so far along to live exlusively as a woman is going to be slow to agree to a date, and more often than not, not going to tell him the truth until they feel him out first. Not because they don't want to admit they were born a man, because they don't want to have possible boyfriend number 3000 just run away and not call again.

There is a reason transgender women have a high occurence of suicides, that is why. :(
 
I know transgender women fear rejection, everyone does. I admire and adore them more than genetic women, sorry ladies I hope you aren't offended. But despite my affinity toward shemales, I won't deny this woman made an error in judgment. Seducing him may have been part of her game plan to win him over but she went too far by giving a blow job. She was at the least risking her relationship, let alone her safety. Had she told him online or better yet gave him subtle hints so he wouldn't be so surprised, the worse that could have happened was separation.

I let it be known that I love transsexual women, so if it were me in his situation it would have been the complete opposite. Massive buttsex would have ensued after I found out the truth. That guy though, he was a stereotype insecure straight guy who committed a hate crime against a golden opportunity. He'll get what he deserves in jail, if not death he'll become someone's bitch and get hands on experience in what a cock feels like and how it magically turns people gay.
 
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Shywong said:
Okay, yeah, I'm completely wrong. Just ignore everything else I said why don't you? I'm wrong for thinking she should have told him one of the most important details about her gender before engaging in sex. It's completely okay to lure someone into a bedroom believing you're something you're not. It's one thing for a guy to lie about his penis size, its another for a woman to lie about having a vagina. You know, because that's what most straight guys want. I never said she should have told the truth if she didn't want to die or it was all her fault. I was saying it would have been wise to let the stupid homophobic sociopath know what he was getting before ever meeting in person. Had she done that this could have been prevented. He should have asked, she should have told. They both gambled and loss, GG. God forbid people to use common sense these days.

That's the best I can explain what I was trying to say. Let me reiterate one more time, I am not blaming the victim. So it would be nice if people stop trying to make me look like the bad guy for suggesting people don't lie when getting intimate.
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Shywong said:
I know transgender women fear rejection, everyone does. I admire and adore them more than genetic women, sorry ladies I hope you aren't offended. But despite my affinity toward shemales, I won't deny this woman made an error in judgment. Seducing him may have been part of her game plan to win him over but she went too far by giving a blow job. She was at the least risking her relationship, let alone her safety. Had she told him online or better yet gave him subtle hints so he wouldn't be so surprised, the worse that could have happened was separation.

I let it be known that I love transsexual women, so if it were me in his situation it would have been the complete opposite. Massive buttsex would have ensued after I found out the truth. That guy though, he was a stereotype insecure straight guy who committed a hate crime against a golden opportunity. He'll get what he deserves in jail, if not death he'll become someone's bitch and get hands on experience in what a cock feels like and how it magically turns people gay.
Click to expand...

You say you love transgender women, but you're STILL blaming her. "She went too far by giving a blow job" and "people shouldn't lie when getting intimate" is outright blaming her. You clearly have something wrong with you if you think blaming the victim is ever appropriate.
 
What the hell is wrong with you people? I've made my point enough times already. Try reading it instead of quoting it over and over. You have something against me? Or is it just that you enjoy playing internet police? Whatever it is its a pretty dumb excuse to keep picking on the new guy. Especially on the same topic. I apologize for not being a total kiss ass but I'm not going to be biased just because this is a GLBT community.
 
Shywong said:
What the hell is wrong with you people? I've made my point enough times already. Try reading it instead of quoting it over and over. You have something against me? Or is it just that you enjoy playing internet police? Whatever it is its a pretty dumb excuse to keep picking on the new guy. Especially on the same topic. I apologize for not being a total kiss ass but I'm not going to be biased just because this is a GLBT community.
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Oh yes, you've made your point clear, I don't need to read it again. Your point is that you feel she should have disclosed her gender status before going down on the guy. My point is that by saying she should have disclosed, you're blaming her. Nobody's picking on you at all, we're just responding to you - no one has made the personal attacks you have. However, perhaps the reason we would "pick on you" is not because you're new, but because you're an asshole. GLBT people don't need people to be nice to us, we recognize dickwads when we see them just like straight people do.
 
What I see happening here is you're making me out to be an asshole because I'm not 100% sympathetic. I believe in logic and reason, not emotions and fantasy. If being a realist makes me an asshole, dickwad, straight, then you're a closed minded feminist. And feminist usually focus on blaming men for everything. What I don't appreciate is you treating me like the straight guy who's here to bash gays at every opportunity. Just because I don't automatically take sides doesn't mean I'm anti-gay. Unlike you I don't let my sexual preference cloud my judgment. Because I say they both screwed up you lash out at me about blaming the victim, regardless of what I may say about the perpetrator. So you you know what? Fuck it, he was guilty but nor was she completely innocent. This is too controversial to drag on, spite my words as much as you want I don't care anymore. They both played the game wrong and lost, end of story.
 
Being as straight as they come I am still appalled by this murder. I often have my disagreements with the GLBT community, but you don't get to go around killing people. I have met people from the Internet and I have always been careful, but other than that I don't blame this woman for anything.

You got a blow job from a transgender woman....How about you express you have no interest in being with someone who is at that stage. You than wish them well and politely leave. Bitch and moan about being lied to or whatever, but don't think your violence will be seen as justified. Point is nothing excuses murder. It is like killing someone after a sexual act if you find out they have heritage or are a religion you don't like. You enjoyed yourself, but your not interested in continuing the relationship.

Part of me says a transgender person should be more open about who they are, but they're struggling with their own issues. The murderer in this case didn't take time to know the person. Regardless you don't get to kill someone because their pluming doesn't match their mindset.

I am opposed to the hate crimes laws because I think they make people a protected group or special. Murder is murder and the motive should have bearing, but that should be up to the judge and jury. Killing a woman for her purse is no less disgusting than killing her because she is a lesbian.

In this case I don't see why it wouldn't be murder or at the very least manslaughter. He should do the maxium under the law, and everyone one should know he is a monster. He is the freak not her.

The only thing the woman in this case did was wrong was use poor judgement in letting a strange man over to her place. She didn't deserve to die because of that.
 
Shywong said:
What I see happening here is you're making me out to be an asshole because I'm not 100% sympathetic. I believe in logic and reason, not emotions and fantasy. If being a realist makes me an asshole, dickwad, straight, then you're a closed minded feminist. And feminist usually focus on blaming men for everything. What I don't appreciate is you treating me like the straight guy who's here to bash gays at every opportunity. Just because I don't automatically take sides doesn't mean I'm anti-gay. Unlike you I don't let my sexual preference cloud my judgment. Because I say they both screwed up you lash out at me about blaming the victim, regardless of what I may say about the perpetrator. So you you know what? Fuck it, he was guilty but nor was she completely innocent. This is too controversial to drag on, spite my words as much as you want I don't care anymore. They both played the game wrong and lost, end of story.
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I'm not making you out to be anything. You're doing it all by yourself.
 
Jagged said:
Being as straight as they come I am still appalled by this murder. I often have my disagreements with the GLBT community, but you don't get to go around killing people. I have met people from the Internet and I have always been careful, but other than that I don't blame this woman for anything.

You got a blow job from a transgender woman....How about you express you have no interest in being with someone who is at that stage. You than wish them well and politely leave. Bitch and moan about being lied to or whatever, but don't think your violence will be seen as justified. Point is nothing excuses murder. It is like killing someone after a sexual act if you find out they have heritage or are a religion you don't like. You enjoyed yourself, but your not interested in continuing the relationship.

Part of me says a transgender person should be more open about who they are, but they're struggling with their own issues. The murderer in this case didn't take time to know the person. Regardless you don't get to kill someone because their pluming doesn't match their mindset.

I am opposed to the hate crimes laws because I think they make people a protected group or special. Murder is murder and the motive should have bearing, but that should be up to the judge and jury. Killing a woman for her purse is no less disgusting than killing her because she is a lesbian.

In this case I don't see why it wouldn't be murder or at the very least manslaughter. He should do the maxium under the law, and everyone one should know he is a monster. He is the freak not her.

The only thing the woman in this case did was wrong was use poor judgement in letting a strange man over to her place. She didn't deserve to die because of that.
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http://bayimg.com/image/fakjfaabb.jpg
 
Jagged said:
I am opposed to the hate crimes laws because I think they make people a protected group or special. Murder is murder and the motive should have bearing, but that should be up to the judge and jury. Killing a woman for her purse is no less disgusting than killing her because she is a lesbian.
Click to expand...

I kind of understand your issue with hate crimes. I think the reason that they make such laws is simply to re-enforce that it is NOT ok to kill someone because they are from a group that society as a whole may dislike.

For the most part I think over the years I have done a good job of passing as straight. You'd be surprised at some of the comments people make about certain groups when they think no one from that group is in their midst. For instance, I have heard comments kind of along the line of that if a gay guy dies somewhat earlier in life than a straight man, then it is not surprising. Diseased lifestyles lead to an early death. I wouldn't want such a person on a jury involving a GLBT victim.

Sure if I kill someone for their purse or because they are lesbian, I am equally guilty and deserve the same punishment -- in theory. However, I don't trust most people to feel the same and make the same sentence to the criminal. In many people's minds, a lady with a purse would be an innocent victim where as the lesbian was asking for trouble due to to her deviant lifestyle. From that stand point, I don't have a problem with hate crimes to make sure juries don't get lenient when the victim is considered less than desirable.

For instance, think of the Harvey Milk killing when a disgruntled formerly elected city councilman (Dan White, I think) in San Fran killed the gay city commission member, Harvey Milk, and the mayor. He got off with the Hostess Twinkly defense where supposedly the large levels of sugar had some role in why he killed them? If he had killed a straight, married person with a few kids, do you think the Hostess Twinky defense would have worked? He wasn't some rich millionaire that bought the best fleet of attorneys' that money could by. I feel that he simply had people that secretly thought such a nice young man shouldn't be punished for some deviant's and a deviant supporter's (mayor's) death.
 
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