Anachronism avoidance: bras and bra sizes

[Weird Harold]

A thought occurred to me when a story set in 1873 referred to a character's "36Ds" -- when did the letter system of cup sizes come into being?

A further related question -- Bette Midler's tale of poor Otto Titslinger aside -- when and how did brassieres get invented/become common?

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Bras were around for a while before they were 'invented', but didn't really catch-on till the 20s. Plenty of the 20s fabrics were diaphanous (thin and porous...less than translucent but more than transparent) and a bra let gals toss the full slips the modest types wore beneath their cocktail dresses. Think those thin blouses gals wore in the 50s.

[MatthewVett]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_brassieres

Wikipedia seems to answer your questions. Letter cups in the US began in 1932, according to that article.

[Tyro999]

Note the 'especially' in this Merriam-Webster #2 definition entry of anachronism, which is how I have always seen it used.

"2: a person or a thing that is chronologically out of place; especially: one from a former age that is incongruous in the present"

[TxRad]

Originally Posted by Tyro999

Note the 'especially' in this Merriam-Webster #2 definition entry of anachronism, which is how I have always seen it used.

"2: a person or a thing that is chronologically out of place; especially: one from a former age that is incongruous in the present"

Time travel back in time is impossible, don't ya know.

[JustaSCOUNDREL]

I don't know Tx I've run across quite a few people who are living in the past.

[TxRad]

Originally Posted by JustaSCOUNDREL

I don't know Tx I've run across quite a few people who are living in the past.

Only in their head.

[Weird Harold]

Originally Posted by Tyro999

Note the 'especially' in this Merriam-Webster #2 definition entry of anachronism, which is how I have always seen it used.

"2: a person or a thing that is chronologically out of place; especially: one from a former age that is incongruous in the present"

That definition probably doesn't apply to Historic Fiction (or non-fiction historical essays). The story that prompted the question is, in fact, a time travel story and generally well researched. That made the anachronistic assessment of breast sizes in modern measurements just that much more jarring.

The Wiki article does answer some of the questions, but it really doesn't go into sufficient detail; especially on regional timings.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Originally Posted by TxRad

Time travel back in time is impossible, don't ya know.

Mention anachronism and look who appears. Dear, I think your cue is antideluvian.

[i_would]

Originally Posted by Tyro999

Note the 'especially' in this Merriam-Webster #2 definition entry of anachronism, which is how I have always seen it used.

"2: a person or a thing that is chronologically out of place; especially: one from a former age that is incongruous in the present"

I have seen it used both ways, but of course primarily how M-W says it's especially used. Because that's how it happens in normal life. Anachronisms from the future can only happen in fantasy stories.

[RoyMacBeth]

Originally Posted by JAMESBJOHNSON

Bras were around for a while before they were 'invented', but didn't really catch-on till the 20s. Plenty of the 20s fabrics were diaphanous (thin and porous...less than translucent but more than transparent) and a bra let gals toss the full slips the modest types wore beneath their cocktail dresses. Think those thin blouses gals wore in the 50s.

As a side note: Howard Hughes designed one of the first underwire bras for Jane Russell.

[3113]

Originally Posted by Weird Harold

A thought occurred to me when a story set in 1873 referred to a character's "36Ds" -- when did the letter system of cup sizes come into being?

Certainly not in 1873 Corsets back then weren't fitted with a cup to cradle the breasts, and until later in the century not much décolletage was displayed (see pic below where it's all hidden with ruffles and such). In fact, it's anachronistic that your 1870's story POV character is focused on the woman's breasts at all. Not that men didn't notice such, but fashion and culture had men more interested in bare shoulders and arms, a slender neck, a small waists, and getting a glimpse of what was under the skirts (ankle or leg). It wasn't until about ten years later than you get gowns which give a focus to breasts (see the Portrait of Madame X by Sargent).

Fashion focus on shoulders, arms, neck and "chest" (1870's) vs. Breasts (1950's):



Corsets took their time going out of style--and we still have merry widows. Here's a great picture of the changing shape of the bra. Note that due to the "boyish" figure fashion of the 20's, the bras there are still more like corsets.

[Handley_Page]

Originally Posted by 3113

Certainly not in 1873 Corsets back then weren't fitted with a cup to cradle the breasts, and until later in the century not much décolletage was displayed (see pic below where it's all hidden with ruffles and such). In fact, it's anachronistic that your 1870's story POV character is focused on the woman's breasts at all. Not that men didn't notice such, but fashion and culture had men more interested in bare shoulders and arms, a slender neck, a small waists, and getting a glimpse of what was under the skirts (ankle or leg). It wasn't until about ten years later than you get gowns which give a focus to breasts (see the Portrait of Madame X by Sargent).

Fashion focus on shoulders, arms, neck and "chest" (1870's) vs. Breasts (1950's):

Corsets took their time going out of style--and we still have merry widows. Here's a great picture of the changing shape of the bra. Note that due to the "boyish" figure fashion of the 20's, the bras there are still more like corsets.

Up to the time of the Napoleonic era, ladies dresses were very, very risqué, the top sometimes only just covering the nipple.

[Weird Harold]

Originally Posted by 3113

In fact, it's anachronistic that your 1870's story POV character is focused on the woman's breasts at all. Not that men didn't notice such, but fashion and culture had men more interested in bare shoulders and arms, a slender neck, a small waists, and getting a glimpse of what was under the skirts (ankle or leg).

Thanks. This is what bothered me about the story; ALL of the men were obsessed with breasts, not just the displaced time traveler. Breasts of the size boasted by the leading female characters would have bordered on the grotesque to "downtimers."

[3113]

Originally Posted by Handley_Page

Up to the time of the Napoleonic era, ladies dresses were very, very risqué, the top sometimes only just covering the nipple.

Oh, yes, there was some shocking décolletage in the 18th century. You're quite right that some of the fashions were very exhibitionist, especially if we're taking about the height of the French court right before the revolution.



And the brief regency period had gowns so form-fitting and thin that men could sometimes see quite lot--even when women wore chemises and petticoats and, yes special corsets (accounts of the time like to focus on women who went without such, their transparent gowns revealing all--but the vast majority of ladies wore something underneath. It didn't help in a strong wind as this cartoon shows).



We also have to remember that, as with movie stars today, it was usually only the rich and famous that went for the most outrageous and shocking fashions. The bulk of the female population--upper-middle and middle class maidens and wives--likely didn't go so far. Not if they wanted to remain "respectable."

And consider that in 1870 only someone's great-grandad would remember those shocking fashions. Post Napoleon women wore more fabric than perhaps at any other time in western history. Layers of skirts, shawls, mitts, head-coverings. A little boy born in 1850 would have been surrounded by women covered up head-to-toe--and with barely a uni-bosom to indicate that they had breasts. There really was no reason for men of that time to become fixated on women's breasts--unlike in the mid-to-late 20th century when breasts became a fashion focal point and busty women were in vogue.

Victorian men, (by most accounts) were more obsessed with getting a glimpse under petticoats than under corsets. Which would account for the infamous can-can dance, the French burlesque of the mid-to-late 1800's where women flashed legs and undergarments.