pyls that do not like pain and the PYLs that play with them

I have been thinking for a while about Sadists and masochists. And the following words from DVS in this post kind of hit on something I have being strugling with myself:

DVS said:

But, there is a challenge in being a submissive.
There's a good chance you'll experience some pain. I guess you don't have to like it, but it's much better if you do. If you just endure it, I don't think you'll be very happy in such a relationship. You are just going through the motions for your Dom. It's better if the endorphins kick in.

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I don't like pain. And so far I have not experienced the endorphine rush when pain turns into pleasure. Pleasing my PYL is what drives my submission, and as such I will endure it if it is what he wants. My primary PYL is not that much into inflicting pain so it has not being an issue so far (plus I do have a pretty good treshhold level), but there is a fairly good chance I'll be playing with a Sadist in the near future.

So my questions are:
As a PYL, does it make any difference if your pyl is into pain or not? and as a Sadist? Did you ever had a pyl that eventually learned to associate pain with pleasure?
As a pyl, can you endure pain simply to please your PYL? And has your body learned to enjoy the pain?

I think it is about matching needs. Not everyone is into giving and/or receiving pain. It can be disastrous to force yourself to try and be something you are not and never going to be in the effort to please another who is passing through your life, not necessarily a permanent part of it, or because you feel you have to....similarly it can be just as disastrous to enter a permanent relationship with another who is seeking something else. I know for F he is not interested in playing with someone who is not into pain or willing to experience it...he also doesn't particularly want someone who grits their teeth and bears it...he likes someone who can both endure and enjoy. But that is who he is and not everyone is like that. I met PYL's who would not inflict pain on any level....because I knew I had masochistic tendencies I chose to bypass them.....if it had been the reverse and I wasn't masochistic, I would likely have chosen to bypass anyone into pain on any level. It is about knowing your limits, your likes and dislikes, and playing with them safely and enjoyably.

Catalina

catalina_francisco said:

I think it is about matching needs. Not everyone is into giving and/or receiving pain. It can be disastrous to force yourself to try and be something you are not and never going to be in the effort to please another who is passing through your life, not necessarily a permanent part of it, or because you feel you have to....similarly it can be just as disastrous to enter a permanent relationship with another who is seeking something else. I know for F he is not interested in playing with someone who is not into pain or willing to experience it...he also doesn't particularly want someone who grits their teeth and bears it...he likes someone who can both endure and enjoy. But that is who he is and not everyone is like that. I met PYL's who would not inflict pain on any level....because I knew I had masochistic tendencies I chose to bypass them.....if it had been the reverse and I wasn't masochistic, I would likely have chosen to bypass anyone into pain on any level. It is about knowing your limits, your likes and dislikes, and playing with them safely and enjoyably.

Catalina

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Thank you for your concern, I see your point. No worries thou.
There is no external pressure that is makeing me feel as if I have to do anything against my desires or pretend to be what I am not. And to that, I am lucky that Hubby, my primary, is also keeping and eye out for me not to push myself, by constantly checking what is going on with me, where I am at and what I am thinking/feeling.

The fact is, I sometime crave the feeling that is left behind after the action that was causing the pain is gone. There is also a curiosity to learn more about different type of pain and about my reaction to it, seeing that my primary PYL has already being able to make my body associate breast/nipple pain with pleasure.

i am a slave who endures pain for the pleasure of my Master. i have a low pain threshold and hate experiencing pain, i can't relate to any endorphin rush or pleasure that a more classically masochistic type would get from such things. while my Master is not an out and out sadist, he does have some sadistic tendencies that need a release from time to time, and the fact that pain is so difficult for me makes it that much more enjoyable for him. He does not find pleasure in inflicting pain on a person who will find it pleasureable, or who has a threshold so high that he must hurt them more than he really wishes to in order to get the desired effect of suffering.

my place as his slave is to submit to his will and desires, and if that means suffering for him by enduring pain, that is reality and i accept it.

As a pyl, can you endure pain simply to please your PYL? And has your body learned to enjoy the pain?

Somewhat similar to what OSG said, I take pain as part of D/s, not really in and of itself. There is definitely some release of tension involved, but I have yet to crave pain for its own sake.

That said, I have learned to associate pain with sexual pleasure. The result is not that I'm like, ooh yeah beat me, but I don't have that flight or fight response (wtf are you doing to me?????). Netzach posted about this somewhere or other, and it was right on the money. If the PYL starts off slow and easy and pushes you slowly, eventually your brain (or at least my brain) goes ok, no one is really trying to harm you here.

Too high a pain threshold is as bad as too low, if not worse. Too high means you have work a lot harder, and have to really walk that fine edge between heavy play and outright harm. It's enjoyable to an extent, but it is taxing, physically mentally.

Too low is actually easier to deal with in its' own way. Yes, it can be annoying to have to play super-light, but even light pain players can usually work higher with the proper motivation and control. And, honestly, I don't have to swing the cane at a certain speed to be happy. If I get my pretty yelps, I'm cool.

Homburg said:

Too high a pain threshold is as bad as too low, if not worse. Too high means you have work a lot harder, and have to really walk that fine edge between heavy play and outright harm. It's enjoyable to an extent, but it is taxing, physically mentally.

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*nods lots*

In relation to ITW and OSG on not liking or getting pleasure from the pain, that does not have to be where it begins and ends. For me there is often pain which I do not like in itself, or get pleasure from directly because of the pain, or find easy to accept, but the enjoyment for him in that is he loves it really hurts beyond pleasure, and we both like where that takes us individually and together which as an end result is pleasure, just not the endorphine kind, nor the pleasure because of suffering to please another....whole other thing.

Catalina

catalina_francisco said:

In relation to ITW and OSG on not liking or getting pleasure from the pain, that does not have to be where it begins and ends. For me there is often pain which I do not like in itself, or get pleasure from directly because of the pain, or find easy to accept, but the enjoyment for him in that is he loves it really hurts beyond pleasure, and we both like where that takes us individually and together which as an end result is pleasure, just not the endorphine kind, nor the pleasure because of suffering to please another....whole other thing.

Catalina

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Ooh, can you explain more? I'm certainly not averse to pleasure! There is an intensity involved - which maybe you're hinting at - which is more about the emotional moment rather than physical chemical reactions, I think. It's hard for me to articulate, but it's something I love in our relationship.

rida said:

So my questions are:
As a PYL, does it make any difference if your pyl is into pain or not? and as a Sadist? Did you ever had a pyl that eventually learned to associate pain with pleasure?
As a pyl, can you endure pain simply to please your PYL? And has your body learned to enjoy the pain?

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I've played with self avowed pain sluts and some some who were not into pain at all but gets me off is the ability to control. Therefore I match my actions to what the pyl likes/dislikes and if I want to do something else, then I slowly push the envelope and explore and see what works and what doesn't.

catalina_francisco said:

I think it is about matching needs. Not everyone is into giving and/or receiving pain. <snip> It is about knowing your limits, your likes and dislikes, and playing with them safely and enjoyably.

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What she said.

I have to say that with me it depends sometimes on my mood and sometimes on where I am in my cycle. I'm not always able to enjoy pain. My threshold varies quite a bit from one week and even one day to the next.

When I can enjoy it, it's great. Master will always push me to the point where I'm not though, because that's where he gets his sadistic kicks. The work up can be slow or fast but that's always where we end up.

If I'm not able to enjoy the sensation, I still enjoy submission and service. He's not a total asshat and if I'm having a light day he won't take it upon himself to beat the shit out of me but generally speaking, the painplay we engage in depends more on his mood than mine.

On a related note, I used to stay still and quiet for as long as possible and he actually started to think that I wasn't getting into the scene. I've learned that he likes my 'pretty moans' and is more interested in watching me squirm than having me suppress my responses in the name of submission and obedience.

I did work up to pain quite gradually and I would also say that having an orgasm before painplay raises my threshold and heightens my enjoyment quite a lot because I'm already in the zone. I don't need it now but it helped when we were learning each other and pushing boundaries. These days my ass is raw before I even think about getting laid.

intothewoods said:

As a pyl, can you endure pain simply to please your PYL? And has your body learned to enjoy the pain?

Somewhat similar to what OSG said, I take pain as part of D/s, not really in and of itself. There is definitely some release of tension involved, but I have yet to crave pain for its own sake.

That said, I have learned to associate pain with sexual pleasure. The result is not that I'm like, ooh yeah beat me, but I don't have that flight or fight response (wtf are you doing to me?????). Netzach posted about this somewhere or other, and it was right on the money. If the PYL starts off slow and easy and pushes you slowly, eventually your brain (or at least my brain) goes ok, no one is really trying to harm you here.

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Great post!!! I'm like this too.

catalina_francisco said:

In relation to ITW and OSG on not liking or getting pleasure from the pain, that does not have to be where it begins and ends. For me there is often pain which I do not like in itself, or get pleasure from directly because of the pain, or find easy to accept, but the enjoyment for him in that is he loves it really hurts beyond pleasure, and we both like where that takes us individually and together which as an end result is pleasure, just not the endorphine kind, nor the pleasure because of suffering to please another....whole other thing.

Catalina

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Yes, I can really relate to this. Although the end result is sometimes that H begins to enjoy the pain itself, from these outings, there have definitely been times where there's some other thing happening, neither pure painslut-ness nor pure "I'll take it for you, Mistress" but some other enjoyment - sometimes it's a totally childhish "holy shit did we just really do that?" kind of rush, for what that's worth.

intothewoods said:

Ooh, can you explain more? I'm certainly not averse to pleasure! There is an intensity involved - which maybe you're hinting at - which is more about the emotional moment rather than physical chemical reactions, I think. It's hard for me to articulate, but it's something I love in our relationship.

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I'll try, though it is difficult to put into words. One way of enjoying it is through the misery for want of a better word....it takes us to a place where the emotional and often psychological level of misery has its own pleasure principle and can be quite seductive....for me it can be coupled with a form of release through that level of misery, then add to that his discovery of dacryphilia/dacrylagnia and it can be quite heady for him.

Then there is the enjoyment based solely on the sadism...the pleasure is not to do with the endorphines associated with the pain, but is more to do with the love of the sadism and the pain for what it is without any escape into subspace, any rationalising it is all for love, and definitely the destructiveness and depravity of that sadism...sort of a rawness which does require some form of control while remaining tempting all the same. It is not the same as masochistic love of pain, more the opposite but ending up as a love of it anyway. Perhaps the best way to describe it is a love/hate relationship...that still seems inadequate for a descriptor, but may give a little insight. LOL, he has taken me to a level of pain where I was left throwing up afterward, and still I did not regret one moment of it and found pleasure in the overall effect....strange for sure.

Catalina

When i joined Lit, pain and pyl's who could take pain were a genuine fascination for me.

I asked alot of questions and spent time trying to figure out the attraction of being hurt.

KC was particularly patient with me, explaining again and again how pain levels can be built and how it can work to become a desire to please or a desire for the pain itself (KC you just don't post enough any more).

Four years later my own pain threshold has waxed and waned depending on many factors, but it has never been high.

I started with a desire to take it to please the PYL I was with.

I then wanted to raise my own pain levels for my own understanding of it worked and to be able to take a longer session which would please him. That effort took me to the level of the flight/fight physiological level and led to some interesting full blown 'discussions' with Andante, my ex!!

Finally I am finding I need pain, I enjoy certain types of pain and this weekend relaxed into a paddling/caning session he put my ass through. He caned my breasts and I actually asked for more, something that surprised both of us.

I would really like to explore the place that Catalina has described that works for her and F both separately and as a couple.

I can only imagine that bonding serves to bring a couple closer both in a session and in other areas of their lives.

The PYL I am with now is someone who enjoys inflicting pain, four years ago I would not have coped with listening to his ideas, much less been able to live with the knowledge that it will happen. Now I want it.

I want it because I want to please him.
I want it because pain at orgasm is an endorphin rush
I want it because I want to push through the fight/flight and find what is on the other side.
Ultimately I want it because he wants to hurt me and gains pleasure from doing it.

Now that is alot of 'I wants' from a slave

VelvetDarkness said:

On a related note, I used to stay still and quiet for as long as possible and he actually started to think that I wasn't getting into the scene. I've learned that he likes my 'pretty moans' and is more interested in watching me squirm than having me suppress my responses in the name of submission and obedience.

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Hell. Yes.

Seriously, react. I've worked on bottoms that did not react. Note that I did not say "played with", because it felt more like work than play.

Yelp, squirm, twist, beg, cry... Feed me the responses I need.

Netzach said:

sometimes it's a totally childhish "holy shit did we just really do that?" kind of rush, for what that's worth.

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This sort of experience is so damned much fun. I have said those exact words, and have had them said to me. Always a good time

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catalina_francisco said:

then add to that his discovery of dacryphilia/dacrylagnia and it can be quite heady for him.

Catalina

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Dacryphilia... Yeah, that's a light bulb going on. It doesn't happen every time, but, yeah, at times, I find tears very arousing.

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shy slave said:

I want it because I want to please him.
I want it because pain at orgasm is an endorphin rush
I want it because I want to push through the fight/flight and find what is on the other side.
Ultimately I want it because he wants to hurt me and gains pleasure from doing it.

Now that is alot of 'I wants' from a slave

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Those are beautiful "I wants", and they are "I wants" that any good slave should be proud to feel.

Homburg said:

Dacryphilia... Yeah, that's a light bulb going on. It doesn't happen every time, but, yeah, at times, I find tears very arousing.

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LOL, it has become a bit of a problem as it works every time for F and so even when I am really upset about something totally non-sexual, no matter what, if I even have a hint of tears in my eyes he is gone. To his credit, when it is not the best time to be so obsessed, he does try not to and feels guilty. He needn't feel guilty as I get it, but it can be problematic from a number of angles. And to think when we first started talking he said one thing which really turned him off quick and definately was crying...sheesh, that soon changed.

Catalina

catalina_francisco said:

LOL, it has become a bit of a problem as it works every time for F and so even when I am really upset about something totally non-sexual, no matter what, if I even have a hint of tears in my eyes he is gone. To his credit, when it is not the best time to be so obsessed, he does try not to and feels guilty. He needn't feel guilty as I get it, but it can be problematic from a number of angles. And to think when we first started talking he said one thing which really turned him off quick and definately was crying...sheesh, that soon changed.

Catalina

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Well, it does not always happen for me. Empathising with the person crying tends to shut it off entirely. I would say that it is not present more commonly than it is present. Definitely rates as a turn-on though.

ETA: I used to consider it a turn-off too. Big one. Weird.

catalina_francisco said:

I'll try, though it is difficult to put into words. One way of enjoying it is through the misery for want of a better word....it takes us to a place where the emotional and often psychological level of misery has its own pleasure principle and can be quite seductive....for me it can be coupled with a form of release through that level of misery, then add to that his discovery of dacryphilia/dacrylagnia and it can be quite heady for him.

Then there is the enjoyment based solely on the sadism...the pleasure is not to do with the endorphines associated with the pain, but is more to do with the love of the sadism and the pain for what it is without any escape into subspace, any rationalising it is all for love, and definitely the destructiveness and depravity of that sadism...sort of a rawness which does require some form of control while remaining tempting all the same. It is not the same as masochistic love of pain, more the opposite but ending up as a love of it anyway. Perhaps the best way to describe it is a love/hate relationship...that still seems inadequate for a descriptor, but may give a little insight. LOL, he has taken me to a level of pain where I was left throwing up afterward, and still I did not regret one moment of it and found pleasure in the overall effect....strange for sure.

Catalina

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Food for thought, thank you. I don't know if I can articulate a response! Still trying to figure out what it might be like.

ownedsubgal said:

.....
my place as his slave is to submit to his will and desires, and if that means suffering for him by enduring pain, that is reality and i accept it.

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intothewoods said:

Somewhat similar to what OSG said, I take pain as part of D/s, not really in and of itself. There is definitely some release of tension involved, but I have yet to crave pain for its own sake.
...

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Right now I am nobody's slave. I'm just my Hubby's whatever he wants me to be, mostly his submissive and play-toy. But the words "my place is to submit to his will and desires" are exactly how I feel.
And as for the craving, I find myself craving the aftermath of it. Not the pain itself (like wanting a baby but not to go through childbirth? LOL)

Homburg said:

Too high a pain threshold is as bad as too low, if not worse. Too high means you have work a lot harder, and have to really walk that fine edge between heavy play and outright harm. It's enjoyable to an extent, but it is taxing, physically mentally.

Too low is actually easier to deal with in its' own way. Yes, it can be annoying to have to play super-light, but even light pain players can usually work higher with the proper motivation and control. And, honestly, I don't have to swing the cane at a certain speed to be happy. If I get my pretty yelps, I'm cool.

Click to expand...

So are you saying that your enjoyment as a Sadist is related to the pyl reaction more than to the level of your actions?

Yes, light players can be motivated and brought along, but doesn't sometime feel frustrating to not just be able to swing and unleash your Sadistic desires? You get your pretty yelps, but isn't there a minimum level that you have to dish out to feed your inner beast?

VelvetDarkness said:

....

On a related note, I used to stay still and quiet for as long as possible and he actually started to think that I wasn't getting into the scene. I've learned that he likes my 'pretty moans' and is more interested in watching me squirm than having me suppress my responses in the name of submission and obedience.

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That was me too. But the quietness was mostly dictated by the thin walls problem .
Interestingly, if I let the noise and sounds flow freely, not only I can take more, but there is definetly a higher enjoyment of the whole thing. I guess it is because, when I have to focus on staying quiet I cannot really disengage my brain and as such I am not letting control go. Now,letting control go is another big problem so maybe that is part of why I want to experience more .

shy slave said:

When i joined Lit, pain and pyl's who could take pain were a genuine fascination for me.

I asked alot of questions and spent time trying to figure out the attraction of being hurt.

KC was particularly patient with me, explaining again and again how pain levels can be built and how it can work to become a desire to please or a desire for the pain itself (KC you just don't post enough any more).

Four years later my own pain threshold has waxed and waned depending on many factors, but it has never been high.

I started with a desire to take it to please the PYL I was with.

I then wanted to raise my own pain levels for my own understanding of it worked and to be able to take a longer session which would please him. That effort took me to the level of the flight/fight physiological level and led to some interesting full blown 'discussions' with Andante, my ex!!

Finally I am finding I need pain, I enjoy certain types of pain and this weekend relaxed into a paddling/caning session he put my ass through. He caned my breasts and I actually asked for more, something that surprised both of us.

I would really like to explore the place that Catalina has described that works for her and F both separately and as a couple.

I can only imagine that bonding serves to bring a couple closer both in a session and in other areas of their lives.

The PYL I am with now is someone who enjoys inflicting pain, four years ago I would not have coped with listening to his ideas, much less been able to live with the knowledge that it will happen. Now I want it.

I want it because I want to please him.
I want it because pain at orgasm is an endorphin rush
I want it because I want to push through the fight/flight and find what is on the other side.
Ultimately I want it because he wants to hurt me and gains pleasure from doing it.

Now that is alot of 'I wants' from a slave

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Thank you shy_slave. My journey resembles yours a lot. The bolded part is where I am at now. Hopefully I'll get to go where you are now.

rida said:

So are you saying that your enjoyment as a Sadist is related to the pyl reaction more than to the level of your actions?

Yes, light players can be motivated and brought along, but doesn't sometime feel frustrating to not just be able to swing and unleash your Sadistic desires? You get your pretty yelps, but isn't there a minimum level that you have to dish out to feed your inner beast?

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Essentially, yes. My enjoyment is related to her reactions more than my actions. I enjoy certain acts more than others, of course, but I don't have a certain level I want to play to. Let's face it, I can flog hard, I can flog light, I can flog in-between. My arm doesn't care how hard it swings.

Sure, I'm likely to get annoyed by someone that cries over a bunny flogger, but I don't *have* to have a certain level. It is more fun when I'm playing with someone that can take what I like to dish, but it is not necessary.

It is more aggravating when I am playing with someone that says "No caning, no spanking, no knifeplay, no this, no that" etc. Sharply limit the acts I can perform, and I will start to get more irritated. If we're getting together solely for rope or a spanking, fine, but if we're getting together to just play and your Don't list is longer than your Do list? Annoying.

Like Catalina said, it's a lot about matching. I wouldn't be compatible with someone who has no interest in it. I've never said how much pain I can handle because, well I haven't hit that threshold and I'm just not sure. On my profiles on other sites I say I'm looking for a "mild sadist." Partially to let the guys know I am into pain but don't expect me to allow somebody to seriously mark my flesh from the get go. (Even with that I've had some bizarre questions. "Can you handle being punched in the stomach?" Where does masochist equal punching bag?!?) If a guy says he isn't into it I let him know we aren't going to be compatible because this is an area I want to explore more.