Is it impossible to publish my novel?

[SandraMustard]

I seem to run into the same roadblock with every publishing venue: All characters must be adults.

That's reasonable to adhere to for any fictional story. I'm not one to push for child pornography and would not be rebellious enough to tempt my fate by breaking the law.

But what about real life? Who wakes up only after their 18th birthday to discover sensations from erogenous zones, orgasms, and the purpose of their genitals?

I want to tell the real story about me. I was actually uncommonly virtuous; I was a virgin until 19 (solely to his credit, not mine.) Unfortunately, my story starts 5 years earlier when I first met my husband-to-be. I want to be truthful about self-discovery and petting that real people did.

Is there anyway to publish my story? Will I subject myself to prosecution for child pornography if I circumvent the common guidelines? You can post answers to this thread or PM me if you prefer.

[NaokoSmith]

I think the rules are that there must be no sex between non adults. Plenty of stories here and elsewhere are about sex that happens in families, sometimes where there are small children. So long as they aren't inappropriately exposed to or taking part in sexual behaviours then it seems to be OK.

[slyc_willie]

If there is any sort of sexual contact between underaged characters, Lit won't accept it. That's the bottom line. I'm sure chaste kissing would be allowed, but petting probably wouldn't. I don't know. I never tried to push anything past the censors.

There are other sites out there that accept material with underaged participants. The problem with those sites, however, is that since they accept it, they're overrun with it and have a healthy pedophilic fan base. I used to publish on one of those sites, but pulled everything from it in short order once I saw that their editor's pick for the week was a story about an underaged prostitute.

Yes, the "real world" includes underaged sex all the time, and the motif has been used and overused in literature. But Literotica's maturity level keeps it above the waters, so to speak.

[PennLady]

Sandra, are you talking about posting on sites like Lit, or for-sale or print publishing?

[SandraMustard]

I'm talking about publishing, PL. I don't need to get past Lit's rules because anything I post here will be within their guidelines. You know my story. I was hoping to use some venue that would get into Amazon et al but Smashwords won't touch my novel because of the "gray" content.

If I self publish (and limit my audience), am I still liable for violating child pornography statutes just for mentioning underage people touching each other?

[sr71plt]

Originally Posted by SandraMustard

I'm talking about publishing, PL. I don't need to get past Lit's rules because anything I post here will be within their guidelines. You know my story. I was hoping to use some venue that would get into Amazon et al but Smashwords won't touch my novel because of the "gray" content.

If I self publish (and limit my audience), am I still liable for violating child pornography statutes just for mentioning underage people touching each other?

What child pornography statutes as they apply to writing rather than visual images?

[PennLady]

Originally Posted by SandraMustard

I'm talking about publishing, PL. I don't need to get past Lit's rules because anything I post here will be within their guidelines. You know my story. I was hoping to use some venue that would get into Amazon et al but Smashwords won't touch my novel because of the "gray" content.

If I self publish (and limit my audience), am I still liable for violating child pornography statutes just for mentioning underage people touching each other?

If you're really concerned about any statutes, look them up or talk to a lawyer. I don't know of any statutes that prohibit writing about kids sexually exploring. For example, I remember way-back-when reading Hey, Deenie by Judy Blume, and there was a bit that was euphemistic but was the girl masturbating, and the girl was only about fifteen. So people do write about such things. The question may be in the details provided, and then simply in what a publisher is willing to accept.

[SandraMustard]

I don't know, Pilot. How are the statutes applied to authors? It seems publishers are so gun shy, they categorically deny any content involving persons under an unlife-like age. What prosecution are they subject to? Is a self-publisher liable in the same way under the same laws?

I'm not trying to arouse any reader about young kids exploring their awakening bodies. I want to tell the world about a 17 year-old boy who met a 14 year-old girl and within a year, could have taken her. Instead, he taught her about life and love, keeping her chaste until she finished high school, well past the lawful age of consent. That hero became my husband of 41 years. The story has no power without the temptations we faced.

[sr71plt]

Originally Posted by SandraMustard

I don't know, Pilot. How are the statutes applied to authors? It seems publishers are so gun shy, they categorically deny any content involving persons under an unlife-like age. What prosecution are they subject to? Is a self-publisher liable in the same way under the same laws?

I'm not trying to arouse any reader about young kids exploring their awakening bodies. I want to tell the world about a 17 year-old boy who met a 14 year-old girl and within a year, could have taken her. Instead, he taught her about life and love, keeping her chaste until she finished high school, well past the lawful age of consent. That hero became my husband of 41 years. The story has no power without the temptations we faced.

I don't think the laws are applied to authors of the written laws at all. The laws are for exploitation of actual children--photographs, videos. Not writing about underage characters in sexual situations.

If Smashwords refuses your book, I don't think it's based on law. I think it's based on what products they wish to sell, and it's their privilege to set those limits.

What you describe here, by the way, isn't underage sex at all--so I'm baffled what your problem is--from what you've described.

[SandraMustard]

You have eased my mind, Pilot. I was obsessing about the consequences because I associated self-publishing with some crime that publishing companies face. My story is definitely NOT child pornography.

I was in the processes of submitting my novel to Smashwords when I came across this succinct statement in their guidelines: "If you write erotica, all characters must be adults." My story has not been refused by them but I see no ambiguity in whether they would or not, so why submit it.

So now my objective is to hear suggestions about what sites might have the least slutty content/reputation that I use to publish. Has anybody here had experience with Outskirts Press?

[sr71plt]

I think the Smashwords wording is more vague than they intended. I think they meant all characters in sexual situations. I haven't looked, but I wouldn't be surprised if Smashwords published some childrens and young adults books.

I don't know whether they would think your specific character situations reflected underage sex. But I also don't think they read the books. They would take their responses from the blurb copy you wrote and your cover design.

[lovecraft68]

Originally Posted by SandraMustard

I don't know, Pilot. How are the statutes applied to authors? It seems publishers are so gun shy, they categorically deny any content involving persons under an unlife-like age. What prosecution are they subject to? Is a self-publisher liable in the same way under the same laws?

I'm not trying to arouse any reader about young kids exploring their awakening bodies. I want to tell the world about a 17 year-old boy who met a 14 year-old girl and within a year, could have taken her. Instead, he taught her about life and love, keeping her chaste until she finished high school, well past the lawful age of consent. That hero became my husband of 41 years. The story has no power without the temptations we faced.

I'm not sure if this is the right answer, but if the book is not all about erotica, if there is an actual story here your "life story" and many other events occur besides sex, then you can self publish it, but do it under fiction not erotica.

There is a huge double standard in under age erotica and underage sex in a work of fiction that just happens to contain sex.

[Erosa007]

Paypal is another issue for online publishers. Paypal will pull out from a publisher who publishes certain types of manuscripts. Yours may be in that gray area.

[sr71plt]

Getting ahead of ourselves here. From what I read it hasn't been submitted to Smashwords yet.

[Amanda_Jilling]

My 2 cents, Sandra, echo some of the comments that have already been made.

It does seem like a grey area but one worth pushing the envelope on. As I understand your story it's about a young girl discovering her sexuality. It's not about exploitation or titillation. So the subject matter is real life.

I agree, however, that it should be presented as fiction.

If I were in your shoes I would have an attorney who is familiar with publishing take a look at the parts you have concerns about. If she or he doesn't have problems I'd publish the book through Smashwords and Amazon. Let them decide whether or not to take you off their site. If that happens you can always set up your own website.

Best of luck with your book

Kisses,
Amanda

[lovecraft68]

Originally Posted by Erosa007

Paypal is another issue for online publishers. Paypal will pull out from a publisher who publishes certain types of manuscripts. Yours may be in that gray area.

If I'm not mistaken, paypal lost that little game early last year and came away with egg on their face.

They were blaming the CC companies, even going so far as to say they had letters from them about certain materials.

Not only could saidletter never be produced, but a spokesperson from Visa came out and said they had no idea what Paypal was talking about.

I wouldn't worry about them.

[Bramblethorn]

Originally Posted by slyc_willie

If there is any sort of sexual contact between underaged characters, Lit won't accept it.

It's certainly possible to mention under-age sex, but not to focus on it - no graphic descriptions etc. I had something along the lines of "Grandma got pregnant at sixteen, she was an adventurous young lady" in my story, and that went through without problems.

[lovecraft68]

Originally Posted by Bramblethorn

It's certainly possible to mention under-age sex, but not to focus on it - no graphic descriptions etc. I had something along the lines of "Grandma got pregnant at sixteen, she was an adventurous young lady" in my story, and that went through without problems.

The op isn't talking about lit, but actually publishing it somewhere for sale.

[Stella_Omega]

yes, it is totally possible to publish fiction that deals with teenaged sexuality. Regardless of the discussion here, that's the simple answer.

Also, American standards are not universal-- look for a UK -based website for instance. Age of consent is 16.

[lovecraft68]

Anytime I see this debate in the realm of publishing I keep coming back to the "slightly" popular Flowers in the Attic series.

Not just sex, not just incest, but under age incest/sex.

Granted it was not hardcore graphic, "I bent sis over the table cause she was hot" but it makes it hard for me to take any "rule" in fiction seriously.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

In Stephen Kings IT is a homosexual scene with one boy fellating another boy. Not a problem, prolly cuz queer is cool these days, and only evil homophobes have a problem with it. But Mister King salts his books with teenager sex and gets away with it.

That said, our cosmetic values changed from 1970 to now. Before 1926 you could marry a child, and plenty of children earned their daily bread toiling in brothels. In the 1800s it was legal to have sex with a child if the child consented.

My problem is how we encourage kids to have sex, and act outraged when it happens. I was sexual with girls when I was 6. We got naked and fondled each other. A girl named Georgia cornered me, talked me into removing my clothes, and we felt each other...labias feel wonderful. Then I took my new skills to a girl named Joyce, and turned her on. An 11 year old girl lured me into the woods when I was 9. I was in 5th grade the first time I spanked a girls butt, she liked it.

The whole time I practiced psychotherapy I drilled clients to think what they want but dont act on it. If I wanna smack some asshat I'm not obligated to do it.

[lovecraft68]

Originally Posted by JAMESBJOHNSON

In Stephen Kings IT is a homosexual scene with one boy fellating another boy. Not a problem, prolly cuz queer is cool these days, and only evil homophobes have a problem with it. But Mister King salts his books with teenager sex and gets away with it.

That said, our cosmetic values changed from 1970 to now. Before 1926 you could marry a child, and plenty of children earned their daily bread toiling in brothels. In the 1800s it was legal to have sex with a child if the child consented.

My problem is how we encourage kids to have sex, and act outraged when it happens. I was sexual with girls when I was 6. We got naked and fondled each other. A girl named Georgia cornered me, talked me into removing my clothes, and we felt each other...labias feel wonderful. Then I took my new skills to a girl named Joyce, and turned her on. An 11 year old girl lured me into the woods when I was 9. I was in 5th grade the first time I spanked a girls butt, she liked it.

The whole time I practiced psychotherapy I drilled clients to think what they want but dont act on it. If I wanna smack some asshat I'm not obligated to do it.

If I recall the two boys in lit started out by lighting farts-literally with a lighter-before one started messing with the other.

It also featured a under age gang-bang although it was not described in great detail.

In general parents and the feds should be more worried about their 14 year old little angels sending pictures of their tits around the internet than what gets put into a book.

[sr71plt]

King wasn't "getting away" with anything. It's not illegal to write about underage sex--and is done in the mainstream.

[Bramblethorn]

Originally Posted by lovecraft68

The op isn't talking about lit, but actually publishing it somewhere for sale.

Yep, I was responding to slyc_willie rather than the OP there.

[Bramblethorn]

Originally Posted by sr71plt

King wasn't "getting away" with anything. It's not illegal to write about underage sex--and is done in the mainstream.

Ayup. Hell, Scooter Libby (the former Cheney advisor who perjured himself in the Valerie Plame business) wrote a novel that featured men paying to watch a ten-year-old girl having sex with a bear.