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Defining erotica

cloudy

cloudy

Alabama Slammer
Joined
Mar 23, 2004
Posts
37,997
Note added by moderator:
The discussion stemmed from another regarding character descriptions:
http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=23968591&postcount=13


JAMESBJOHNSON said:
All the description stuff is sideshow to the story. When I read a story I have my own eidetic image of the perfect woman. Your idea of the perfect woman will make me gasp and ACK....maybe.

Porn readers want 3 things: They want a major boner that makes them obsess about the story...and come back for another dose, they want to learn some helpful hints about seducing people, and they want to learn some tricks they can try with momma.

Porn is not a damned travelogue to the South Seas.
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This is an erotica site, not a porn site. Literotica, get it?
 
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My deffinition of Erotica is: Too graphic to be a 50 cent romance novel with a description like "Roger slid his loving manhood into Sally's awaiting lovebox with one swift stroke" and more sophisticated than a used picture book Showing a 11 by 8 inch page of a pussy slick with ky with a monsterly fake dick stuffing it, sticky form the dirty old man who kust cuffed one off to the centerfold.
 
CLOUDY

Check out the various definitions for erotica, then check out what gets posted here. And then, if you really want your head to twirl, read a copy of Elizabeth Benedict's THE JOY OF WRITING SEX.

As I understand it, and I'm wrong about most things; but as I understand the definition of erotica, erotica is literature. That is, literature includes features like story and plot and theme and premise, etc., and the sex is incidental like punctuation. There may be no sex at all. In D.H. Lawrence's THE FOX, I dont recall anyone getting so much as kissed; but it's erotica.

And what's wrong with being an honest pornographer?
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
CLOUDY

Check out the various definitions for erotica, then check out what gets posted here. And then, if you really want your head to twirl, read a copy of Elizabeth Benedict's THE JOY OF WRITING SEX.

As I understand it, and I'm wrong about most things; but as I understand the definition of erotica, erotica is literature. That is, literature includes features like story and plot and theme and premise, etc., and the sex is incidental like punctuation. There may be no sex at all. In D.H. Lawrence's THE FOX, I dont recall anyone getting so much as kissed; but it's erotica.

And what's wrong with being an honest pornographer?
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Don't assume that I'm uneducated. You only make yourself look foolish.

There's nothing wrong with being a pornographer, if that's what you want to be. I aim for something else than porn. I write erotica, which is what this site was intended to be, or it wouldn't have the name it has.

Just because there's bad porn - and there is some truly bad porn - posted here doesn't mean that it's a "porn site."
 
CLOUDY

I'm the biggest fool God ever created. I freely admit and publicly acknowledge it. Remember the old song ACT NATURALLY? That was me.

If there is erotica on this board I havent found it. But, then, I dismiss LADY CHATTERLEY'S LOVER as a hack fuck book. And I'm not alone in my thinking.

I occasionally get requests for testimonials, and I always lie and proclaim a hack porno story a masterpiece of erotica. But I cant recall the last time I saw real erotica.
 
One of the problems with the term "erotica" these days is that it is used by anyone to describe anything that has sex in narrative form. Pornographers are using it to describe pure stroke peices. Romance publishers are publishing "erotic romance," even of authors who don't describe their own work that way.

People like me (and apparently, Cloudy) who insist that erotica describes literature in which sex carries theme are few and far between these days. To dismiss books describing sexual acts as pornography is, on the one hand, Puritanical and, on the other hand, places Shakespeare or Anais Nin on the same shelf as "Winne Pays" or the infamous "Anonymous."

Are all stories with scenery in Denver called "Westerns"?

I have no idea why Literotica was founded, but I'm glad it exists. I'd argue that there is a considerable amount of erotica on the site -- see my above description -- though most of the writing is flawed because the writers are amateurs. Personally, I don't find that a problem.

ST
 
SOFTOUCH

Our discussion about the nature of erotica is a bone established professionals chew on. Virtually every 'writers' book I pick up expresses an opinion one way or the other. In my opinion the debate has degenerated to quarrel.

The reality is: Real literature is rare. I cant name one contemporary writer who writes FOR THE AGES. All of us (statistically speaking) are commercial hacks. I took a statistical sample from the Literotica Library and found NO literature. That is, a real story with a real plot that illustrates a premise about the human condition AND includes incidental & collateral sex. AND masters the craft of writing plus has a unique style.

I think you and CLOUDY are peeing on my foot and calling it rain.

Recently I read a collection of Tennessee Williams short stories. They arent literature, either. Theyre narcissistic obsession with his own sexual issues. His writing is glorious AND it kinda leaves the path and wanders aimlessly about.
 
What is and is not literature is very subjective.

I adore Sherman Alexie's work. To me, his work is literature. It's not terribly commercial, although it sells enough to keep him working. To you, it may not even be close to literature.

Its rather arrogant to set yourself up as a judge in this instance, isn't it?
 
CLOUDY

What is and isnt literature shouldnt be subjective, otherwise the word has no meaning. For the last 45 minutes I've been discussing what is and isnt a good blow job. Now! A blow-job is a subjective experience for the reason no one has set any standards to measure what happens when a dick is inside a mouth. And anyone can claim theyve had a blow job if their penis makes contact with lips, tongue, etc.

But that isnt the case with writing. Tests exist that measure writing skills and knowledge.

There's a qualitative difference between an adult store fuck book and Steinbeck's GRAPES OF WRATH, where Rose O'Sharon lets an adult man suckle her tit for nourishment. The latter is erotic. The GRAPES OF WRATH is not about Rose O'Sharon getting her jollies suckling guys.

Or Faulkner's A ROSE FOR MISS EMILY, where the old woman sleeps with the corpse of her lover. The story is about a strange old woman's history.

CLOUDY let me be clear about this. I do my own thinking and I make informed conclusions based on my reasoning and the information I collect. You dont get to do my thinking for me, and you dont get to draw my conclusions. You can inform me, though. And if this makes me an asshole in your mind, well, good for me.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
CLOUDY

What is and isnt literature shouldnt be subjective, otherwise the word has no meaning. For the last 45 minutes I've been discussing what is and isnt a good blow job. Now! A blow-job is a subjective experience for the reason no one has set any standards to measure what happens when a dick is inside a mouth. And anyone can claim theyve had a blow job if their penis makes contact with lips, tongue, etc.

But that isnt the case with writing. Tests exist that measure writing skills and knowledge.

There's a qualitative difference between an adult store fuck book and Steinbeck's GRAPES OF WRATH, where Rose O'Sharon lets an adult man suckle her tit for nourishment. The latter is erotic. The GRAPES OF WRATH is not about Rose O'Sharon getting her jollies suckling guys.

Or Faulkner's A ROSE FOR MISS EMILY, where the old woman sleeps with the corpse of her lover. The story is about a strange old woman's history.

CLOUDY let me be clear about this. I do my own thinking and I make informed conclusions based on my reasoning and the information I collect. You dont get to do my thinking for me, and you dont get to draw my conclusions. You can inform me, though. And if this makes me an asshole in your mind, well, good for me.
Click to expand...

touchy, touchy.

Where in the world did you ever get the notion that I'd want to do your thinking for you? Get over that, please. Who are you to me that I would ever want to expend that effort?

What is and is not literature IS subjective, whether you like that idea or not. I have a degree in English, I've fought this fight before, and just because you say something is literature doesn't mean a thing to the next person, and vice versa.

sub·jec·tive

1) : peculiar to a particular individual : PERSONAL subjective judgments
2) : modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background <a subjective account of the incident> b : arising from conditions within the brain or sense organs and not directly caused by external stimuli <subjective sensations> c : arising out of or identified by means of one's perception of one's own states and processes <a subjective symptom of disease
 
CLOUDY

I think you get off quarreling. Come see me when you get over it.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
CLOUDY

I think you get off quarreling. Come see me when you get over it.
Click to expand...

No, darlin', I don't. I don't like being told I'm trying to think for someone else when, clearly, that isn't the case.

I think you need to realize that you're not always right. You see, grown ups realize they're not right all the time, and in every discussion.

Don't bother to come see me. Not interested.
 
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erotica sounds like you have to be a really good popet or something, which amny people here are. im not atht good, but i also wouldnt asy my stuff is porn. it is simply a story which features sex, nudity etc.
 
Faulkner was a Great author, no doubt about it. He added an "n" to his own name to sound more sophisticated.

Steinbeck was another Great author, no doubt about that, either.
He could not handle is success and actually threw a party when one of his bestseller novels went off the "Bestseller" list.

To compare my writing to these literary giants, flawed though they may be, is not my way.

I write naughty stories about the activities of people I want to know about. I start off where most stories end. I have taken an idea published by a modern literary genius (in my opinion) and made it my own. I would hope that she would be aroused by it. I know I am.

My plot and character development are there but limited in scope so as not to take away from the sexually explicit nature of my writing.

I do not have a problem with either the term "erotics writings" or the term "pornographic writings". For me, the key word in both terms is "writings"
 
Ummmm hate to be the bearer of bad news, but literature is by definition written word set down in a permanent or long lasting manner. Literature is therefore, your kids homework, your shopping list, your receipts, your paycheck is literature, to many much better literature than Hemingway or Shakespeare.

Erotica is more or less literature that has a sexual theme or nature.

Porn, is videos of said sexual theme or nature. Basically those videos you buy in the adult stores, or watch on Showtime latenight, though those are not as much sexually active and brainless as regular old porn, it is still pornographic because of the sexual theme.

Any movie/TV show with a sex scene is pornographic by definition, though of course that little tidbit is often not mentioned, unless a religious group takes offense to the story contained in the movie/show and has a sex scene or hints at one. :rolleyes:

What your arguing over is good literature or great literature if you like that term better. Literature and erotica and pornography are all clearly defined it is the quality of said materials that are not and that is what the experts argue over because it is all based on personal opinion.
 
You say potato and I say potato...

Emap, you posted, “Ummmm hate to be the bearer of bad news, but literature is by definition written word set down in a permanent or long lasting manner…”

While that may be technically true, that is hardly the point here or in any major bookstore, for that matter. “Literature” generally refers to the published works of authors who are considered to be “Great”.

You also posted, “Porn, is videos of said sexual theme or nature.”

Again, that is a very limited view. While correct, it doesn’t mean it is the only thing that is considered pornographic.

There is also the fact that in previous eras, many great authors have had a very difficult time getting their erotic or even so-called “daring” works published without legal and/or moral censure.

You posted, “Literature and erotica and pornography are all clearly defined it is the quality of said materials that are not and that is what the experts argue over because it is all based on personal opinion.”

At last we are agreed. In my opinion and in my writings, I concentrate on the sexual activity and the way it is emotionally involving the protagonists. The more interesting the protagonists; the more interesting their responses.
 
Jedikool said:
erotica sounds like you have to be a really good popet or something, which amny people here are. im not atht good, but i also wouldnt asy my stuff is porn. it is simply a story which features sex, nudity etc.
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popet/amny/atht/asy.........wow
 
For me, the difference is simple.

Porn is almost all "whats". What happens. Insert Tab A into Slot B and lots of it in all possible variations. Of course the is the obligatory part where Slots B and C explore their options as well.

Erotica should also have plenty of the "whys". Why does slot B want to have A's tab inserted and how do A and B feel about what is going on? For me, good erotica has plenty of whats, hows, whys, etc.

Both have their place. IMO.

I like to think that I write erotica but I'll leave that judgment to others.
 
cloudy said:
Note added by moderator:
The discussion stemmed from another regarding character descriptions:
http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=23968591&postcount=13




This is an erotica site, not a porn site. Literotica, get it?
Click to expand...

This same discussion is floating through the story feedback board now.

The statement here "not a porn site" claims what the site is/isn't, not what individual authors put on it (much of which certainly can be called erotica and not--quite--porn).

To that point, go look at the story home page--at the top are three panels of a naked cartoon lady getting fucked by a robot. At the bottom is a button to a sex toy store and an advert for 20,000 dirty movies.

And just now on the board, in a discussion on "this is a literary not a porn site," we've had a site author state that this is the only place she can put her incest stories. Can we spell "incongruity"?

Now, about this not being a porn site . . . :D
 
SpencerAlanMacLeod said:
Faulkner was a Great author, no doubt about it. He added an "n" to his own name to sound more sophisticated.
Click to expand...

Tilt. He added a "u" not an "n." The family name was Falkner (check out his brother's book: The Falkners of Mississippi, by Murry C. Falkner).
 
emap said:
Ummmm hate to be the bearer of bad news, but literature is by definition written word set down in a permanent or long lasting manner. Literature is therefore, your kids homework, your shopping list, your receipts, your paycheck is literature, to many much better literature than Hemingway or Shakespeare.

Erotica is more or less literature that has a sexual theme or nature.

Porn, is videos of said sexual theme or nature. Basically those videos you buy in the adult stores, or watch on Showtime latenight, though those are not as much sexually active and brainless as regular old porn, it is still pornographic because of the sexual theme.

Any movie/TV show with a sex scene is pornographic by definition, though of course that little tidbit is often not mentioned, unless a religious group takes offense to the story contained in the movie/show and has a sex scene or hints at one. :rolleyes:

What your arguing over is good literature or great literature if you like that term better. Literature and erotica and pornography are all clearly defined it is the quality of said materials that are not and that is what the experts argue over because it is all based on personal opinion.
Click to expand...


I occasionally venture here, out from my rock in SRP, and frankly I could not agree more with what is said in the last paragraph above.

What I have trouble with is people like the gentleman well above who imply or even overtly state that if you don't agree with them you have to be wrong. Like it or not all taste is subjective, and even the so called standards by which he, the above gentleman that is, governs his standards are subject to debate, despite his statements to the contrary, these are not hard and fast rules.

Someone once said you cannot dispute taste.
 
emap said:
Erotica is more or less literature that has a sexual theme or nature.

Porn, is videos of said sexual theme or nature. Basically those videos you buy in the adult stores, or watch on Showtime latenight, though those are not as much sexually active and brainless as regular old porn, it is still pornographic because of the sexual theme.
Click to expand...

The separation of porn and erotica on graphics vs. writing is false. Webster's definition alone spikes that: pornography: the depiction of erotic behavior (as in pictures or writing) intended to cause sexual behavior.

The separation of the two in writing is a large, highly subjective gray middle ground. Even a Supreme Court justice couldn't do better than to say "I know it when I see it." The lower reaches of erotic writing is suggestiveness that the reader latches onto in their own mind (graphically, this is like a Georgia O'Keefe photo of a lily that someone looking at it can get sexual connotation out of if they are disposed to do so). The highest reaches of porn has a gangbang going on and everyone in sight being degraded by their excess. You ain't going to find the sliver of a line where erotica crosses to pornography in writing--you can come close for yourself if you work on it, but it won't be the same point the guy/girl next to you identifies.

Those who say this site is restricted to erotica and doesn't have an overabundance of porn are self-delusional (or lying).

Me, I like what's posted here. (other than incest and a few of the excessive sports, which I can't fathom/justify personally--but which can be found here.)
 
Perhaps the problem is that today this term "pornography" no longer primarily refers to written materials but to the unfortunate polluted sea of hardcore [whatever term you want to use] videos, dvds, websites, etc, that is intended to make profits for sleezoids. Material that is crass, vulgar, in your face, usually cookie cutter and repetitive, and quite often simply gross or discusting to anyone with a minimal level of taste. That sort of material has become labelled "porn" over the last couple of decades.

I would say erotic material can be written or visual. Its intent IS to cause arousal or sexual feelings, yet I would say it is almost completely different from the visual commercial cookie cutter material society calls "porn" these days. I can't exactly define the difference yet though; I'll have to think about it. There is a difference though, in terms of taste perhaps, but I think also on a philosophical level. Erotica has a spiritual and sensual dimension, as well as a minimal level of class and taste. In fact, I think these things are actually almost completely different from each other. Erotica can sometimes be very raunchy, but it is put into a larger picture that frames it in some sort of redeeming way.
 
renard_ruse said:
Perhaps the problem is that today this term "pornography" no longer primarily refers to written materials but to the unfortunate polluted sea of hardcore [whatever term you want to use] videos, dvds, websites, etc, that is intended to make profits for sleezoids. Material that is crass, vulgar, in your face, usually cookie cutter and repetitive, and quite often simply gross or discusting to anyone with a minimal level of taste. That sort of material has become labelled "porn" over the last couple of decades.

I would say erotic material can be written or visual. Its intent IS to cause arousal or sexual feelings, yet I would say it is almost completely different from the visual commercial cookie cutter material society calls "porn" these days. I can't exactly define the difference yet though; I'll have to think about it. There is a difference though, in terms of taste perhaps, but I think also on a philosophical level. Erotica has a spiritual and sensual dimension, as well as a minimal level of class and taste. In fact, I think these things are actually almost completely different from each other. Erotica can sometimes be very raunchy, but it is put into a larger picture that frames it in some sort of redeeming way.
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I think you're right, Renard. I try to make a "human circumstance" point or have an interesting plot/character twist with any of the "erotica" stories I write--which too my mind, moves them up toward if not into the erotica zone. I've often wished that there was a line of movies that did this as well--the sex, yes, but more than a passing attempt at plot/characterization.
 
Pornography (from answers.com): Sexually explicit pictures, writing, or other material whose primary purpose is to cause sexual arousal.

I find many different types of art delightfully pornographic. What's wrong with calling something porn anyways? Does it make people feel less sophisticated?

Edit: I did not really read the posts following the first one, and I'm too lazy to do so. I'm no writer btw.
 
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