Go Back   Literotica Discussion Board > Main Literotica Forums > Poetry Feedback & Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools

Old 08-31-2014, 10:10 AM   #1
bflagsst
Literotica Guru
 
bflagsst is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 992
Bflag's Pleasures of Criticism

If anyone wants feedback(criticism) of poems they're working on past or future, post them here and I'll hit them with the hammer of the idol and/or massage your ego into the twilight. There have been other threads with similar intention, but they faded because no one really wanted to be a constant critic of their peers; well I find pleasure in it so I will.

I promise to respond to every posted poem within a week, unless I forget that I made this thread. And I promise to respond to every criticism that criticized my initial criticism within two weeks from the date of my initial criticism.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 10:21 AM   #2
pelegrino
Literotica Guru
 
pelegrino is offline
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Europe
Posts: 541
Quote:
Originally Posted by bflagsst View Post
If anyone wants feedback(criticism) of poems they're working on past or future, post them here and I'll hit them with the hammer of the idol and/or massage your ego into the twilight. There have been other threads with similar intention, but they faded because no one really wanted to be a constant critic of their peers; well I find pleasure in it so I will.

I promise to respond to every posted poem within a week, unless I forget that I made this thread. And I promise to respond to every criticism that criticized my initial criticism within two weeks from the date of my initial criticism.
[Material prohibited per our forum guidelines.]
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 10:26 AM   #3
Tsotha
donnyQ
 
Tsotha's Avatar
 
Tsotha is offline
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,462
Please criticize this for us.
__________________
derpity derp herp derp
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 11:57 AM   #4
Magnetron
Wood Chucker
 
Magnetron's Avatar
 
Magnetron is offline
Join Date: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsotha View Post
Please criticize this for us.
Being a fetus is the furthest thing from being unique, unless you take into consideration its potential to grow up into a numerous personalities with unique personal experiences.

So ..... it lost me.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 12:52 PM   #5
bflagsst
Literotica Guru
 
bflagsst is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsotha View Post
Please criticize this for us.
I'm not as important
as salvation,
as man or woman,
nor am I as unique
as I was in the womb,
viscous fluid in hand
pulse beneath my feet,
so happy just to dream
of heartbeat, heartbeat.


Quality fucking poem, wouldn't change a thing at this juncture; Admit2.net poetry anthology agreed with me in terms of it being worth reading. Perhaps it needed to be nested within the other poems, as it was a collaborative garland which it was one part.

http://www.admit2.net/pdfissues/admit2%2030.pdf page 18

But we're straying from the pedantic purpose of this thread. Yes, it is a thread for my pleasure, but as an aside it should help authors who are interested in criticism of their *own* constructions.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 01:20 PM   #6
bflagsst
Literotica Guru
 
bflagsst is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelegrino View Post
[Material prohibited per our forum guidelines.].
Doggerel and topical poems are a really difficult form and often completely uninteresting, unfunny.

My good friend is getting married next week and his wife asked me to write them a poem and recite it at the ceremony. I tried a few different techniques, tried directly talking about their biography, gave up on that cuz too hacky. Then I tried making it a more general love poem that basically said nothing about them and thought it would be a waste of their time for me to get up and just kind of promote my own poetry at their once-in-a-lifetime event.

Anyway, I'm declining my recitation with a new appreciation of all these poet laureates who go around giving occasion/celebration/inauguration poems. You should really consider whether or not you're going to be known as a doggerel text box poet, because even they have to work at it.

Last edited by bflagsst : 08-31-2014 at 01:22 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 01:33 PM   #7
Tsotha
donnyQ
 
Tsotha's Avatar
 
Tsotha is offline
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by bflagsst View Post
I'm not as important
as salvation,
as man or woman,
nor am I as unique
as I was in the womb,
viscous fluid in hand
pulse beneath my feet,
so happy just to dream
of heartbeat, heartbeat.


Quality fucking poem, wouldn't change a thing at this juncture; Admit2.net poetry anthology agreed with me in terms of it being worth reading. Perhaps it needed to be nested within the other poems, as it was a collaborative garland which it was one part.

http://www.admit2.net/pdfissues/admit2%2030.pdf page 18

But we're straying from the pedantic purpose of this thread. Yes, it is a thread for my pleasure, but as an aside it should help authors who are interested in criticism of their *own* constructions.
My mom likes my poetry. Does that count, too?

The entire PoBo is for critique. Jump in into any thread where people are posting stuff and fire away.

Now, creating your own thread? Makes me think you're some kind of big shot, carrying the credentials, permission to write. Which is why I asked you to criticize your own work, before posting any of mine. Wanted to see how you went about it, if you're just another ego balloon.
__________________
derpity derp herp derp
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 01:47 PM   #8
bflagsst
Literotica Guru
 
bflagsst is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsotha View Post
My mom likes my poetry. Does that count, too?

The entire PoBo is for critique. Jump in into any thread where people are posting stuff and fire away.

Now, creating your own thread? Makes me think you're some kind of big shot, carrying the credentials, permission to write. Which is why I asked you to criticize your own work, before posting any of mine. Wanted to see how you went about it, if you're just another ego balloon.
I figured since everyone had their own thread promoting their own poetry I was welcome to promote my own criticism. I'm not asking for permission to write, I'm asking for permission to criticize your poems for my own enjoyment. Don't post your poems here if you don't want my criticism. I've no interest anymore in sifting through New Poems or the zillion sorta poetry threads where people may or may not be looking for criticism. If you want criticism from me, here is the place to post your poem. If you want to argue with me about what right or credentials I have to criticize your poetry...well, you're frankly wasting your time because a.) I will argue with you about anything, b.) All you have to do is read someone's poems to get an idea if they're credentialed to talk to you or anyone else about poetry.

Who's asking Billy Collins about whether or not his BA in English from a million years ago really gives him credence to criticize ted kooser's poetry? An idiot, maybe. A smart person would just read Billy Collins' poetry and decide whether they care or not about what he has to say.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 01:52 PM   #9
Trixareforkids
Drawn that way
 
Trixareforkids's Avatar
 
Trixareforkids is offline
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,795
Here, have at this one. It's a powerful but ugly piece that I should revisit. I'm open to criticism/suggestions.

Before She (B/S)
__________________
the way to end a poem like this it to become suddenly quiet.
Charles Bukowski

My ramblings
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 01:56 PM   #10
Tsotha
donnyQ
 
Tsotha's Avatar
 
Tsotha is offline
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,462
Reading, writing and criticizing are different things, with some overlap. I did read how you criticize and decided for myself. Thank you, and carry on. This will be amusing.
__________________
derpity derp herp derp
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 01:58 PM   #11
butters
Harry's Girl
 
butters's Avatar
 
butters is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London UK
Posts: 51,771
Quote:
Originally Posted by bflagsst View Post
I figured since everyone had their own thread promoting their own poetry I was welcome to promote my own criticism.
not sure it's about promoting for most, certainly isn't for me. it's a safety measure, and easy-to-access repository should i ever lose my hard drive or hard copies (which i never make anymore but maybe i should). it's a bit cheeky to use lit this way but so long as laurel's good with it, so am i.

nothing wrong with you starting this thread of yours. don't know how many takers you're gonna get - maybe some newcomers might be interested since they're always hungry for feedback whatever the source. it's a shame NPRs doesn't get more of our attention if only because it encourages writers over to here. i can't complain, though, since i rarely find the time or drive to visit there myself.
__________________
poetry submissions


What strange machinery lies between her ears
HarryHill


'tender hearted...
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 02:09 PM   #12
bflagsst
Literotica Guru
 
bflagsst is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixareforkids View Post
Here, have at this one. It's a powerful but ugly piece that I should revisit. I'm open to criticism/suggestions.

Before She (B/S)
Alright, cool. I've actually read this one before. I'm not sure that b/s was the best choice to abbreviate 'Before she', I kind of forget what it means mid-poem and have to go back up and look. Often people have just done the ......... in place of repeating the same intro, but all in all it's not that big a deal to reading the poem.

So I'm reading the poem and don't really connect with it as a poem until,

"B/S relearned to use bladder and bowels on the bedside purpose built chair"

this shows some learned skill and the following lines are pretty good and I'm into the poem, then it kind of returns to this monotone indexing from whence it came. To skip that for a minute, rhabdomyosarcoma, CSF, PICU are too difficult for the layperson to not trip over even second read through.

You might have better luck breaking out of the indexing and possibly addressing the audience as I/He talking about what scenes actually were like between the girl and the narrator before the illness, then shifting back into the indexing but as is it reads like an unfinished poem.

My main criticism would be that the indexing is too good and it makes the poem more clinical and impersonal than it could have been even broken in parts and trimmed a bit. That the indexing even comes close to making it seem dishonest because of how articulate it is whereas there isn't that personal individual memory from time to time of life before illness and indexing of diagnosis to draw me back into what is believable as reader. You tried at the end, but it's too generic when compared against the wall of detail from the previous zillion lines.

Last edited by bflagsst : 08-31-2014 at 02:11 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 02:36 PM   #13
pensivepoet
Literotica Guru
 
pensivepoet is offline
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsotha View Post
My mom likes my poetry. Does that count, too?

The entire PoBo is for critique. Jump in into any thread where people are posting stuff and fire away.

Now, creating your own thread? Makes me think you're some kind of big shot, carrying the credentials, permission to write. Which is why I asked you to criticize your own work, before posting any of mine. Wanted to see how you went about it, if you're just another ego balloon.
Another? Surely, tsoth, you're not implying there may be more than one? Ha!
Here take my gun, it was worth it.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 03:03 PM   #14
twelveoone
ground zero
 
twelveoone is offline
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 5,836
re: pelegrino's
"Doggerel and topical poems are a really difficult form and often completely uninteresting, unfunny."
Is this the extent? Why is it (if it is) uninteresting and unfunny? Did I miss something? As I found it to be both interesting and at least moderately funny but then "Context is King" at least on a transient basis. And what isn't transient?
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 03:14 PM   #15
bflagsst
Literotica Guru
 
bflagsst is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
re: pelegrino's
"Doggerel and topical poems are a really difficult form and often completely uninteresting, unfunny."
Is this the extent? Why is it (if it is) uninteresting and unfunny? Did I miss something? As I found it to be both interesting and at least moderately funny but then "Context is King" at least on a transient basis. And what isn't transient?
Comedy is transient and difficult even when we're sharing the same information/context. i dont even know who the butt of the context is here really, koba or me or the general we, so not all that amusing.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 03:28 PM   #16
twelveoone
ground zero
 
twelveoone is offline
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 5,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by bflagsst View Post
Alright, cool. I've actually read this one before. I'm not sure that b/s was the best choice to abbreviate 'Before she', I kind of forget what it means mid-poem and have to go back up and look. Often people have just done the ......... in place of repeating the same intro, but all in all it's not that big a deal to reading the poem.

So I'm reading the poem and don't really connect with it as a poem until,

"B/S relearned to use bladder and bowels on the bedside purpose built chair"

this shows some learned skill and the following lines are pretty good and I'm into the poem, then it kind of returns to this monotone indexing from whence it came. To skip that for a minute, rhabdomyosarcoma, CSF, PICU are too difficult for the layperson to not trip over even second read through.

You might have better luck breaking out of the indexing and possibly addressing the audience as I/He talking about what scenes actually were like between the girl and the narrator before the illness, then shifting back into the indexing but as is it reads like an unfinished poem.

My main criticism would be that the indexing is too good and it makes the poem more clinical and impersonal than it could have been even broken in parts and trimmed a bit. That the indexing even comes close to making it seem dishonest because of how articulate it is whereas there isn't that personal individual memory from time to time of life before illness and indexing of diagnosis to draw me back into what is believable as reader. You tried at the end, but it's too generic when compared against the wall of detail from the previous zillion lines.
Are you adverse to me DAing this? Keep in mind, this is NOT a who's right/who's wrong.

B/S celebrated her 20th birthday in the PICU
B/S heard the word rhabdomyosarcoma

Strikes me as a powerful juxtaposition, which would be lost entirely if dropped. Of course it all depends on the audience.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 03:38 PM   #17
Trixareforkids
Drawn that way
 
Trixareforkids's Avatar
 
Trixareforkids is offline
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by bflagsst View Post
Alright, cool. I've actually read this one before. I'm not sure that b/s was the best choice to abbreviate 'Before she', I kind of forget what it means mid-poem and have to go back up and look. Often people have just done the ......... in place of repeating the same intro, but all in all it's not that big a deal to reading the poem.

So I'm reading the poem and don't really connect with it as a poem until,

"B/S relearned to use bladder and bowels on the bedside purpose built chair"

this shows some learned skill and the following lines are pretty good and I'm into the poem, then it kind of returns to this monotone indexing from whence it came. To skip that for a minute, rhabdomyosarcoma, CSF, PICU are too difficult for the layperson to not trip over even second read through.

You might have better luck breaking out of the indexing and possibly addressing the audience as I/He talking about what scenes actually were like between the girl and the narrator before the illness, then shifting back into the indexing but as is it reads like an unfinished poem.

My main criticism would be that the indexing is too good and it makes the poem more clinical and impersonal than it could have been even broken in parts and trimmed a bit. That the indexing even comes close to making it seem dishonest because of how articulate it is whereas there isn't that personal individual memory from time to time of life before illness and indexing of diagnosis to draw me back into what is believable as reader. You tried at the end, but it's too generic when compared against the wall of detail from the previous zillion lines.
I went with clinical/impersonal intentionally. As the forward said, it was a precursor to After Image, which is also ugly, but too raw for me to work with. So, I went the complete opposite.

Now, for a re-write, I'd like to make Before She completely stand alone and more 'poetic' but I think it still needs to be fairly clinical for the punch at the end, which is the point. The internal language could be made smoother, more poetic though, which is what I intend to work on. This was a dash off piece in response to queries about the history of After Image and I just went with the facts working back from the time frame of After Image.

So, yeah, it has lots of room for improvement but I think it needs to retain that impersonal feel because that's the secondary statement of the piece (which I wish to bring more to the forefront), the bullshit of impersonal diag-nonsense, the hubris of the medical profession and their impersonal treatment, the ignored absurdity of treating illnesses/diseases as if they exist in a vacuum rather than a person.

So, with that in mind, any new/additional thoughts?
__________________
the way to end a poem like this it to become suddenly quiet.
Charles Bukowski

My ramblings

Last edited by Trixareforkids : 08-31-2014 at 03:42 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 03:41 PM   #18
Trixareforkids
Drawn that way
 
Trixareforkids's Avatar
 
Trixareforkids is offline
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
Are you adverse to me DAing this? Keep in mind, this is NOT a who's right/who's wrong.

B/S celebrated her 20th birthday in the PICU
B/S heard the word rhabdomyosarcoma

Strikes me as a powerful juxtaposition, which would be lost entirely if dropped. Of course it all depends on the audience.
Not at all. Break it down, rip it apart.

See my response to bflagsst for where I was and where I want to go with it.
__________________
the way to end a poem like this it to become suddenly quiet.
Charles Bukowski

My ramblings
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 03:42 PM   #19
todski28
Literotica Guru
 
todski28 is offline
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,342
Interested to see some thoughts on this, I know it needs work but not sure where or what to shuffle about or if it's worth keeping.

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost...9&postcount=69
__________________
todski28

As a favour to Tsotha
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 03:50 PM   #20
twelveoone
ground zero
 
twelveoone is offline
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 5,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixareforkids View Post
Not at all. Break it down, rip it apart.

See my response to bflagsst for where I was and where I want to go with it.
when two disagree, go with what you feel right, I tend to agree with you here, my advice would have been trim some of the weaker lines, but as I can't identify which they would be...
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 04:14 PM   #21
Trixareforkids
Drawn that way
 
Trixareforkids's Avatar
 
Trixareforkids is offline
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
when two disagree, go with what you feel right, I tend to agree with you here, my advice would have been trim some of the weaker lines, but as I can't identify which they would be...
Ah, come on. You were talking about DAing it, doooo it! I'm sure you've got some other helpful insights in that lovely brain of yours, don't be such a tease.

B/S really isn't personal to me, it's a head piece, not a heart piece, as someone aptly delineated before. Where it goes for the heart at the end just tis back into After Image for me, where my heart is bleeding in her hand.
__________________
the way to end a poem like this it to become suddenly quiet.
Charles Bukowski

My ramblings
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 04:25 PM   #22
bflagsst
Literotica Guru
 
bflagsst is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixareforkids View Post
I went with clinical/impersonal intentionally. As the forward said, it was a precursor to After Image, which is also ugly, but too raw for me to work with. So, I went the complete opposite.

Now, for a re-write, I'd like to make Before She completely stand alone and more 'poetic' but I think it still needs to be fairly clinical for the punch at the end, which is the point. The internal language could be made smoother, more poetic though, which is what I intend to work on. This was a dash off piece in response to queries about the history of After Image and I just went with the facts working back from the time frame of After Image.

So, yeah, it has lots of room for improvement but I think it needs to retain that impersonal feel because that's the secondary statement of the piece (which I wish to bring more to the forefront), the bullshit of impersonal diag-nonsense, the hubris of the medical profession and their impersonal treatment, the ignored absurdity of treating illnesses/diseases as if they exist in a vacuum rather than a person.

So, with that in mind, any new/additional thoughts?
I get and like the clinical indexing. But the heart of the poem is in how you present that last idea. the interior could use more flow and phrasing editing, i would be most concerned in length of presenting the clinical detail vs. What youre able to get across of life before the clinic.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 04:39 PM   #23
bflagsst
Literotica Guru
 
bflagsst is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 992
Quote:
Originally Posted by todski28 View Post
Interested to see on this, I know it needs work but not sure where or what to shuffle about or if it's worth keeping.

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost...9&postcount=69
Excellent prosaic imagery. My first query would be: why isn't this a short story with the additional details of why we should care about the boy beyond domestic violence is bad?

As far as a poem you aren't hitting the symbols, metaphor, sounds to make us respond to the work as anything beyond how we might feel after watching a poignant public anti-violence ad on TV.

Either confess and personalize or teach and universalize, just don't sit happily with description.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 04:41 PM   #24
twelveoone
ground zero
 
twelveoone is offline
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 5,836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trixareforkids View Post
Ah, come on. You were talking about DAing it, doooo it! I'm sure you've got some other helpful insights in that lovely brain of yours, don't be such a tease.

B/S really isn't personal to me, it's a head piece, not a heart piece, as someone aptly delineated before. Where it goes for the heart at the end just tis back into After Image for me, where my heart is bleeding in her hand.
I was asking bflagsst. Who is doing a fine job. That one struck me as a potential loss.
I understand his point, but that is a problem with poetry, two can disagree because it is so complicated. Even when they are looking at the same thing, they are seeing different. I look at the B/S poem; logically it is perfect, it goes on too long
, but that is a part of the logic of it.
  Reply With Quote

Old 08-31-2014, 04:58 PM   #25
Trixareforkids
Drawn that way
 
Trixareforkids's Avatar
 
Trixareforkids is offline
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 1,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by twelveoone View Post
I was asking bflagsst. Who is doing a fine job. That one struck me as a potential loss.
I understand his point, but that is a problem with poetry, two can disagree because it is so complicated. Even when they are looking at the same thing, they are seeing different. I look at the B/S poem; logically it is perfect, it goes on too long
, but that is a part of the logic of it.
Yes and yes, and that's the bitch of it for me. It IS the Reader's Digest condensed version. I know too much about it, having spent nearly every day and most nights at the hospital for 6 months and then all additional shit after. But that's my challenge, distilling it further. Which seems to be what you're both saying.

Personal prejudice here, I'm not a fan of long poems even if the individual lines are short, so I may be blind to a better format. So for form, keep the line format or break each of the B/S lines up into small individual stanzas?
__________________
the way to end a poem like this it to become suddenly quiet.
Charles Bukowski

My ramblings
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:56 AM.

Copyright 1998-2013 Literotica Online. Literotica is a registered trademark.